Rosicky to stay..for now [Archive]

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The Old Lady Hertha

15 Jul 2005, 11:42 AM

footyfan1

15 Jul 2005, 12:23 PM

Rosicky long-term future in doubt (http://skysports.planetfootball.com/list.asp?hlid=292077&CPID=22&CLID=&lid=9&title=Rosicky+unrest&channel=germany)

He's a great player, but I can't really see him staying in Dortmund past this year. Love the way the player plays on NT, but never really got it going in Dortmund. I still think Dortmund should have cashed him in this year, his value will only decline IMO.

We've always known he wouldn't spend the rest of his career in Dortmund. We aren't stupid. I'm actually suprised he's still with us.

As far as "Dortmund should have cashed in on him this year", I don't agree. A good Bundesliga season will drive his value up. And his contract ends in 2008. Even after this season, he's still bound to Dortmund for two more seasons.

If someone wants him, they'll have to pay or wait. Someone will pay.

Also, we'd be doomed to the relegation battle this season without him. There are just no replacements available.

The club has to take one good shot at Europe and we need Rosicky to do that.

I'd already posted that article to my Dortmund list with my comments added into the article. Here's what I thought:

Rosicky Unrest
By Vasek Kadlec

Posted to Sky Sports - 15 July 2005

Tomas Rosicky has committed himself to Borussia Dortmund until 2008, but he has admitted that he does not see his long-term future at the club.

****My Comment: Well, duh! We've all known this for a long time! I'm surprised he's still with us myself!!!

Dortmund have major financial difficulties, resulting in the departures of a lot of their big names over the past few seasons.

****My Comment: A couple of the "big names" were driven away by Matthias Sammer, not financial problems! We have the financial problems because of this!

The biggest of the names remaining at the Westfalenstadion, Rosicky himself, is the centre of much interest around Europe but the 24-year-old is now set to stay at Dortmund for at least one more year.

"I don't want to leave at any price," stated Rosicky. "I still think that Dortmund are a high-quality club and the atmosphere during the matches is also great. The only thing that I miss is the UEFA Champions League."

The Czech international has been the subject of interest from Chelsea, Real Madrid and Tottenham, and Rosicky has not completely ruled out a move, although any transfer would most likely happen next summer.

"Although I have said that I am staying, always anything can happen.

****My Comment: If they sell him before the season, we can prepare for the relegation battle..........

"I have always said to myself that I will move to a bigger club. Contracts of many important players expire at the end of this season so I will wait and see how things stand at that time. Maybe I will revalue my plans.

"There were clubs that were able to pay the sum that Dortmund demand. But I will wait one year."

Rosicky will now enter his sixth season at Dortmund, and the attacking midfielder has seen plenty of stars leave during his time.

"When I came, everybody looked at me because I was the most expensive player of the Bundesliga. But there have been many experienced players. Now there is only me and Metzelder. It is not easy to replace such experienced players.

"Especially in the dressing room they are irreplaceable. For example, Kohler, you can't replace him. Even though he was a player, he was also another coach.

****My Comment: Which is why I said Sammer got too much credit for CMetz's emergence. I think Kohler built CMetz, not Sammer! It's also why I wish we'd kept "Kokser" on board at BVB!!!

"Now I know another situation. I am the one who has to lead the team. It is another step in my career."

Rosicky is desperate to play in the Champions League once again, and his future at Dortmund will heavily depend on their ability to qualify for Europe's premier club competition this season.

Manager Bert Van Marwijk has already ruled out the chances of a top three finish, something that Rosicky finds difficult to accept.

"I don't take it," said Rosicky. "I have grown up in the Champions League and I want to play it again. But I won the Bundesliga so I know how difficult that is, and I have to agree with the coach unfortunately.

"We have at Borussia several young players that can make a good impression. The management depends on the homegrown players.

"I thought that when everything goes well and the new signings Buckley and Degen get into the team, we could be able to play for third place, which would be enough. But when the management sold Ewerthon, it is not true."

****My Comment: I disagree with Rosicky. I also don't like what I'm reading here. It looks like Rosicky may be giving up before the battle even starts. I don't think the sale of Ewerthon will make the difference between third and fifth or sixth. Buckley should be able to make up most of Ewerthon's goals, if not all of them. I think management are also counting on Gambino and Odonkor to mature and reach their potential in the next season or two.

However, with Niclas Jensen being sold today, I think we need to pick up another experienced player, maybe two off the scrap heap. Even if they suck. I think we need some experience on the bench.

Even if management thinks BvM can get some of the kids "Bundesliga Ready" during the season.

If we don't get anyone else, I fear we could be in for a long season.........

The Old Lady Hertha

15 Jul 2005, 01:09 PM

Schaumann

15 Jul 2005, 01:59 PM

footyfan1

15 Jul 2005, 03:12 PM

Rosicky is one of my favorite players in the world. But from what I see, I see that he is some the same qualities as say, a Marcelinho, or a Basteurk or a (insert dimunative, pacy playmaker here), but his stats don't add up right.

Last year:
Marcelinho: 18 goals, 13 assists
Basteurk (in basically 2/3 of a season): 7 goals, 6 assists
Micoud: 8 goals, 8 assists
Hleb: 2 goals, 14 assists
Beinlich: 3 goals, 10 assists
Rosicky: 4 goals, 4 assists

All these players play basically the same position (correct me if I'm wrong), they're all attacking midfielders. Rosicky has the benefit of Koller and Ewerthon, Marcelinho and Basteurk have no one, ditto for Beinlich. In theory, Rosicky should have a field day. I don't understand how a player of his ability doesn't score or assist more often. I'm sure you have your reasons against me, I'm sure.

Of course I do. Rosicky's numbers suck and his production has been disappointing, but there are reasons for that.

In Dortmund's offense, Rosicky isn't looked to for goal-scoring. I think that will change this coming season.

Also, Rosicky's dismal assist numbers are "helped" by the monumental number of 100% goal-chances blown by Ewerthon and Koller over the past two seasons.

You write like Ewerthon and Koller are these great strikers. They are not. Both blow more chances than any strikers I've seen in the past 20 years. In the past two seasons, BOTH of these guys should have had 25 goals apiece. I'm not freakin' exaggerating either!

And that's not counting ALL of the chances they should have buried, that's just counting some of the chances!

But it's not all the fault of Koller and Ewerthon.

Rosicky doesn't have a Marcelinho to open up lanes for him. We thought Torsten Frings would do this, but Frings wanted Rosicky's job!

Ewerthon and Koller never opened up any lanes for anyone. They never struck fear in the hearts of any defenders. They are basically both "garbagemen". If you don't create 100% open chances for them, they aren't going to score. And there were just SO MANY 100% open chances they still blew, it's wasn't funny.

But again, it's not all their fault.

When it comes to offense in the Dortmund midfield, Rosicky is it. Teams can concentrate solely on stopping Rosicky. Florian Kringe is getting better, and honestly was becoming more effective offensively than Rosicky last season and that's Rosicky's fault.

If Kringe learns to hit the target more often this coming season, that will definitely open things up more for Rosicky. The question remains, "What will Rosicky do with it?"

However, at this moment, when it comes to a guy at BVB who defenses look to stop, it's Rosicky and that's it.

Don't go so much off goal/assist numbers. So often, they don't tell the entire story.

You write Marcelinho and Bastuerk have no one. I disagree. They have each other. But some fans are so busy complaining about what they don't have, they continually put down what they do have. I'd love to have the balanced scoring and defense that Hertha had.

That being said, dude, I'd give you both Ewerthon (If we hadn't sold him) and Koller for Marcelinho. Marcelinho is a special player. He'd get more run (In the media) if he were European. How Marcelinho isn't in the Brazilian team, I don't f#cking know. I think he's not only the best player in the Bundesliga by far, I think he's one of the best players in the world.

Man, you can't sit there and discount how much Marcelinho means to Bastuerk's statistics. I know you aren't trying to do that, but that's how it seems. At least to me.

Don't get me wrong. Yildray Bastuerk is very talented. I think just as talented as Rosicky. Bastuerk put up good numbers when he played with Ballack too. And at one point, I wanted BVB to go after Bastuerk to replace Rosicky.

However, again, Marcelinho's influence can't be discounted when looking at Bastuerk's numbers.

BTW, are you trying to say that Bastuerk did so much in so little time??

Rosicky played only two more matches (27 to 25) than Bastuerk. So what is it? Did Bastuerk have so little time, or more time than you thought???

The difference in the numbers?? Again, Rosicky didn't have a Marcelinho. And yes, at times I don't think Rosicky gives his best effort in the BVB shirt.

However, look at Rosicky's numbers from last season a little closer.

They "jumped" :) after we got Ebi Smolarek to open some things up for Rosicky. Three of Rosicky's four goals and three of his four assists came after BVBs acquisition of Smolarek. And, on top of that, Rosicky missed five matches after Smolarek's acquisition. This season, they should have a full season together. Let's see what happens now.

Dude, Stefan Beinlich didn't have anyone?? What about Barbarez, Jarolim, and combinations of Takahara, Mpenza and Lauth??? I would take Takahara, Mpenza or Lauth in place of Ewerthon.

Not that they are overall better players, but all three are sure as hell better finishers than Ewerthon.

Come on man. I know Rosicky's numbers suck. There's no excuse for that, but don't tell me these other guys are so much better because they didn't have anyone else. That just doesn't fly. At least not with me.

footyfan1

15 Jul 2005, 03:15 PM

Keith is going to blame Koller and Ewerthon with their inability to put it away, but in my opinion that's just a small fraction of the greater fact and that is: Rosicky proved nothing last year. . .Kringe was 10x more important to our side than Tomas.

Read my response. You might be a bit surprised.

We disagree on it being a "small fraction". I think it was a major reason, but not the only one and Rosicky's suckass numbers aren't completely their fault.

But I think they were more than a "small fraction". Before I stopped getting match DVDs, misses by those two cost Rosicky eight assists that I counted.

I don't think the uproar would be as great if they'd hit just some of those.....

The Old Lady Hertha

15 Jul 2005, 08:52 PM

Of course I do. Rosicky's numbers suck and his production has been disappointing, but there are reasons for that.

In Dortmund's offense, Rosicky isn't looked to for goal-scoring. I think that will change this coming season.

Also, Rosicky's dismal assist numbers are "helped" by the monumental number of 100% goal-chances blown by Ewerthon and Koller over the past two seasons.

You write like Ewerthon and Koller are these great strikers. They are not. Both blow more chances than any strikers I've seen in the past 20 years. In the past two seasons, BOTH of these guys should have had 25 goals apiece. I'm not freakin' exaggerating either!

And that's not counting ALL of the chances they should have buried, that's just counting some of the chances!

But it's not all the fault of Koller and Ewerthon.

Rosicky doesn't have a Marcelinho to open up lanes for him. We thought Torsten Frings would do this, but Frings wanted Rosicky's job!

Ewerthon and Koller never opened up any lanes for anyone. They never struck fear in the hearts of any defenders. They are basically both "garbagemen". If you don't create 100% open chances for them, they aren't going to score. And there were just SO MANY 100% open chances they still blew, it's wasn't funny.

But again, it's not all their fault.

When it comes to offense in the Dortmund midfield, Rosicky is it. Teams can concentrate solely on stopping Rosicky. Florian Kringe is getting better, and honestly was becoming more effective offensively than Rosicky last season and that's Rosicky's fault.

If Kringe learns to hit the target more often this coming season, that will definitely open things up more for Rosicky. The question remains, "What will Rosicky do with it?"

However, at this moment, when it comes to a guy at BVB who defenses look to stop, it's Rosicky and that's it.

Don't go so much off goal/assist numbers. So often, they don't tell the entire story.

You write Marcelinho and Bastuerk have no one. I disagree. They have each other. But some fans are so busy complaining about what they don't have, they continually put down what they do have. I'd love to have the balanced scoring and defense that Hertha had.

That being said, dude, I'd give you both Ewerthon (If we hadn't sold him) and Koller for Marcelinho. Marcelinho is a special player. He'd get more run (In the media) if he were European. How Marcelinho isn't in the Brazilian team, I don't f#cking know. I think he's not only the best player in the Bundesliga by far, I think he's one of the best players in the world.

Man, you can't sit there and discount how much Marcelinho means to Bastuerk's statistics. I know you aren't trying to do that, but that's how it seems. At least to me.

Don't get me wrong. Yildray Bastuerk is very talented. I think just as talented as Rosicky. Bastuerk put up good numbers when he played with Ballack too. And at one point, I wanted BVB to go after Bastuerk to replace Rosicky.

However, again, Marcelinho's influence can't be discounted when looking at Bastuerk's numbers.

BTW, are you trying to say that Bastuerk did so much in so little time??

Rosicky played only two more matches (27 to 25) than Bastuerk. So what is it? Did Bastuerk have so little time, or more time than you thought???

The difference in the numbers?? Again, Rosicky didn't have a Marcelinho. And yes, at times I don't think Rosicky gives his best effort in the BVB shirt.

However, look at Rosicky's numbers from last season a little closer.

They "jumped" :) after we got Ebi Smolarek to open some things up for Rosicky. Three of Rosicky's four goals and three of his four assists came after BVBs acquisition of Smolarek. And, on top of that, Rosicky missed five matches after Smolarek's acquisition. This season, they should have a full season together. Let's see what happens now.

Dude, Stefan Beinlich didn't have anyone?? What about Barbarez, Jarolim, and combinations of Takahara, Mpenza and Lauth??? I would take Takahara, Mpenza or Lauth in place of Ewerthon.

Not that they are overall better players, but all three are sure as hell better finishers than Ewerthon.

Come on man. I know Rosicky's numbers suck. There's no excuse for that, but don't tell me these other guys are so much better because they didn't have anyone else. That just doesn't fly. At least not with me.

Long response...I like your responses, thorough, and yet, more to the point than some posts by other people who are write far less. :)

Back to point...if you looked at the year before this year, when Hertha had only Marcelinho, everyone tried to stop him. He was injured for the much of the first half, didn't have Basteurk and STILL finished with 8 goals. I think Rosicky is just as talented as Marcelinho. And if you think Koller and Ewerthon are bad finishers, Bobic and Wichniarek make them look golden. Only this year has Hertha put it all together in the midfield, with the acquisition of a now very underrated Gilberto and the resurgence of Niko Kovac. I can understand why you think Koller and Ewerthon are not great, but coming from where I'm from, I would take them over our strikers anyday. If we had Koller and Ewerthon, we would be champions IMO.

What I do agree with is your assessment of Basteurk. I don't think Marcelinho would have had a much different season than Basteurk, because he was that special that year. I think Marcelinho affected everyone around him more so than everyone around him affected him. I think basteurk and Gilberto and Niko Kovac would have had lesser years if it wasn't for Marcelinho's brilliance. Everyone says how Basteurk and Gilberto helped Marcelinho improve, Marcelinho was already good enough to put everything on his back; he improved others more because he was doing the same thing as he was doing in years past. Yea it does seem like I put down their numbers, but no more so than you put down Ewerthon and Koller for missing sitters. If we had Ewerthon and Koller, Marcelinho and Bastuerk may have had 5-10 more assists each among them and the same amount of goals. Remember, in the first half, where we started off dreadfully, much like last year (0-5-1), we had the same problem as last year, lack of goalscorers (but Basteurk was out).

Back to Rosicky (wrong forum to talk about Hertha matters ;) ). Rosicky talentwise I put at the same level as Marcelinho. he is absolutely dazzling on the NT. He still is even without Nedved helping him. There must be something in his game that clicks well in the Czech Republic, but does not do the same in Borussia Dortmund. Probably because there are more midfield and attacking options in the Czech Republic (Baros, Poborsky, Galasek, Jankulovski, etc.). In BVB, there was for a time where he was the main point and everyone tried to stop him, as you said. I think a player who has the same ability as Rosicky would be able to circumvent this circumstance like Marcelinho. But for some reason he didn't. It maybe because of the players around him, but I don't think so. I think Rosicky lacks the leadership qualities that Marcelinho has. Marcelinho understands he IS THE MAN in Berlin and takes that responsibility. Sometimes he misuses it by staying out late in a disco, but when a game comes along, he wants to be THE MAN. I'm not sure if Rosicky has that same mentality. Maybe he trusts his teammates more, I'm not sure. But, sometimes I feel that Rosicky does not want to take a real leadership role. Sure, he's young, but he's already been in the international spotlight for 2-3 years now. Maybe Marcelinho has more to prove than Rosicky (i.e. spot on Brazilian NT).

As for Beinlich: Jarolim is NOT the same quality as any of the players above mentioned (kicker rating of 3.91). Takahara and Mpenza and Lauth had a combined total of 15 goals, not exactly ground shaking. Beinlich is a quality player who had not a lot of help I believe. Van der Vaart's signing may improve him, but his age is catching up. I believe Hamburg have wasted Beinlich, he could have been influencial in league play.

footyfan1

16 Jul 2005, 01:59 AM

Long response...I like your responses, thorough, and yet, more to the point than some posts by other people who are write far less. :)

I just get into it dude.

Back to point...if you looked at the year before this year, when Hertha had only Marcelinho, everyone tried to stop him. He was injured for the much of the first half, didn't have Basteurk and STILL finished with 8 goals. I think Rosicky is just as talented as Marcelinho.

We severely disagree. Rosicky isn't in Marcelinho's league. As much as I like Tomas Rosicky, he is overrated......

And if you think Koller and Ewerthon are bad finishers, Bobic and Wichniarek make them look golden. Only this year has Hertha put it all together in the midfield, with the acquisition of a now very underrated Gilberto and the resurgence of Niko Kovac. I can understand why you think Koller and Ewerthon are not great, but coming from where I'm from, I would take them over our strikers anyday. If we had Koller and Ewerthon, we would be champions IMO.

You REALLY haven't seen the chances Koller and Ewerthon blow. You really just have not.

And, if you took the deal I offered, you wouldn't be champions. We'd have Marcelinho!! LOL!! :D

BTW, I write BVB just about every day to ask them to re-sign Fredi Bobic as Koller's backup. Bobic does not completely suck and he and Wichinarek aren't the first strikers to fail in Berlin. You ever think your strikers just can't relax there??

I think that about the BVB players in Westfalenstadion. I've had the chance to stand on that pitch and look up. It HAS to be intimidating to try to play your best match in front of 80,000 screaming lunatics.....

The only ones since Herrich, Chapuisat and Riedle who were any good at the Westfalenstadion were Bobic and Amoroso. Koller would/should be on the list, but with the chances that guy blows, I really can't do that.

What I do agree with is your assessment of Basteurk. I don't think Marcelinho would have had a much different season than Basteurk, because he was that special that year. I think Marcelinho affected everyone around him more so than everyone around him affected him. I think basteurk and Gilberto and Niko Kovac would have had lesser years if it wasn't for Marcelinho's brilliance.

I can't agree with that. Were it not for Marcelinho's brilliance, defenses could crack down on Bastuerk and the others more.

Everyone says how Basteurk and Gilberto helped Marcelinho improve, Marcelinho was already good enough to put everything on his back; he improved others more because he was doing the same thing as he was doing in years past.

That's exactly the point I just made above.....

Yea it does seem like I put down their numbers, but no more so than you put down Ewerthon and Koller for missing sitters. If we had Ewerthon and Koller, Marcelinho and Bastuerk may have had 5-10 more assists each among them and the same amount of goals.

Again, I disagree with you. You aren't factoring in the number of sitters those guys miss.

You think I'm exaggerating here, but I honestly am not. You would be appalled at how many matches their missing sitters has cost us.

BVB should have won six more matches this season. Those are the ones I got on DVD this past season that we lost or drew simply because of blown chances. Come on my list and ask anyone what BVB's two major problems have been over the past three seasons. I can guarantee you the answers would be:

1) Too many wasted chances

2) Lack of killer instinct.

Remember, in the first half, where we started off dreadfully, much like last year (0-5-1), we had the same problem as last year, lack of goalscorers (but Basteurk was out).

Yes, then you guys got hot. I'm anxious to see if you guys are for real or just had a good season......

Same for BVB. Just because we had that great second half of the season, I know we still have major problems. Most of all being lack of depth on the team.

If BvM can't work magic with some young players, we are in trouble.

Back to Rosicky (wrong forum to talk about Hertha matters ;) ). Rosicky talentwise I put at the same level as Marcelinho.

As I said, I can't agree. I don't Rosicky is in Marcelinho's league......

he is absolutely dazzling on the NT. He still is even without Nedved helping him. There must be something in his game that clicks well in the Czech Republic, but does not do the same in Borussia Dortmund. Probably because there are more midfield and attacking options in the Czech Republic (Baros, Poborsky, Galasek, Jankulovski, etc.).

Exactly. Rosicky isn't the focal point in the national team. And while he is very good for them, I wouldn't exactly call him "dazzling"......

In BVB, there was for a time where he was the main point and everyone tried to stop him, as you said. I think a player who has the same ability as Rosicky would be able to circumvent this circumstance like Marcelinho. But for some reason he didn't. It maybe because of the players around him, but I don't think so. I think Rosicky lacks the leadership qualities that Marcelinho has. Marcelinho understands he IS THE MAN in Berlin and takes that responsibility. Sometimes he misuses it by staying out late in a disco, but when a game comes along, he wants to be THE MAN. I'm not sure if Rosicky has that same mentality. Maybe he trusts his teammates more, I'm not sure. But, sometimes I feel that Rosicky does not want to take a real leadership role. Sure, he's young, but he's already been in the international spotlight for 2-3 years now. Maybe Marcelinho has more to prove than Rosicky (i.e. spot on Brazilian NT).

Rosicky doesn't have a leader's mentality. But again, I will say I disagree with you on the talent level of the two men. Rosicky isn't even in Marcelinho's league.

Yes, Rosicky is young, but despite his time in the international spotlight, Rosicky still has a lot of growing to do. Rosicky REGRESSED under Matthias Sammer. All that time, Rosicky was with a trainer who taught him ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and even undermined Rosicky with the acquisition of Frings. Rosicky is nowhere near as good as he can be yet. The thing is, there's no guarantee he'll ever reach that potential.

If you want proof, look no further than Lars Ricken. Another who regressed under Sammer.......

As for Beinlich: Jarolim is NOT the same quality as any of the players above mentioned (kicker rating of 3.91). Takahara and Mpenza and Lauth had a combined total of 15 goals, not exactly ground shaking. Beinlich is a quality player who had not a lot of help I believe. Van der Vaart's signing may improve him, but his age is catching up. I believe Hamburg have wasted Beinlich, he could have been influencial in league play.

I notice you conveniently left off Barbarez and his 11 goals. I did have Barbarez on my list of players. And HSV had balanced scoring just as Hertha did.

Why is it seemingly "better" if one or two guys score the majority of a team's goals??

I don't think every team has to have one or two great strikers. Not as long as they are winning matches......

Yes, I know the majority of winning teams do have one or two great strikers, but I think a team with balanced scoring will win one day and win soon.

It might even be Hertha BSC....... :)

BTW, I think VdV's acquisition will either relegate Beinlich to the bench or have him finding another club.........

The Old Lady Hertha

16 Jul 2005, 09:00 AM

Just woke up, so bear with me a bit.

I think Rosicky talent wise is the same as Marcelinho...both are dimunative, both are fast, both are good dribblers and both are good crossers. The only tangible skill that Marcelinho is better than Rosicky at is in dead-ball situations. Rosicky does not take penalties; if Marcelinho didn't take penalties, I think he'd have 12 goals instead of 18.

Maybe you are right about Koller and Ewerthon, maybe I haven't seen them blow chances. But I still disagree. Bobic and Wichniarek can't create their own chances, they need someone to do it for them. And when chances do come their way, they lack what you call the "killer instinct." Koller you just punt the ball up and his big head will do something, or if you just pass to Ewerthon and he can dazzle his way through the defense (I've seen him do that). Maybe switch one for the other...maybe Koller and Wichniarek in Berlin and Bobic and Ewerthon in BVB would work perfectly, but I'm not sure because it won't happen. I think all teams have had moments were obvious goals were missed...maybe you guys have more of it, fine, but I would take 20+goals from 2 guys then 7 goals from 3 guys (Nando Rafael included).

I think he is dazzling in NT, everyone I've met has said incredible things about Rosicky in the NT, maybe they are lying to me. But I do have a lack of info on him at the NT.

And you think Hertha has balanced scoring? Maybe from the midfield, but last time I checked, balanced scoring included one good striker at least.

I am surprised Rosicky doesn't score as much as he does. If Koller and Ewerthon miss as many sitters as they do, doesn't that give Rosicky more free reign to shoot more often?? Thats what happened with Marcelinho, and, to a lesser extent, Basteurk. I really just don't see how your Koller and Ewerthon theory works exactly, they may miss a lot, but conversion wise, I think they hit the net just as well as everyone else does if you give everyone else the same amount of chances.

I agree about Sammer...damn a lot of these players regressed, ESPECIALLY Ricken who could have become a regular in the German NT, even more than Frings. I'm surprised Frings didn't regress as much with Sammer.

And yes I did forget about Barbarez...my mistake. I think Beinlich could still be on the starting XI, though, because van der Vaart is so versatile, he can play anywhere along the midfield. But I still think Beinlich was wasted, as was Barbarez (he's 34 now?).