Greatest World Cup Team of All Time

[Merengue]

I've been staying out of rangers00 attempts to rewrite history but almost every neutral fan the world over recognizes that Argentina were superior to England in 1986. Perhaps your hatred of Argentina doesn't allow you to see that but your viewpoint is definitely the minority one. Yes Maradona handled the ball but he also scored the greatest goal in World Cup history in that match. Throughout that tournament Argentina showed they could beat all comers. England did fairly well in that tournament but still struggled against Portugal and Morocco. Argentina were the better team on the day and throughout World Cup 1986.

As for Bauser's discussion of Brazil 1970, I have only seen that team on tape and it is so difficult to compare teams from different eras but soccer as played in 1970 was so much different than that of today or even in the 80's and 90's. Watch tapes of those 1970 games and you'll marvel at how much time and space the players were given on the ball. Modern day teams would never allow players like Gerson, Rivelino, Jairzinho and Pele so much time to work their magic.

[rangers00]

Originally posted by Merengue
I've been staying out of rangers00 attempts to rewrite history but almost every neutral fan the world over recognizes that Argentina were superior to England in 1986.

More revisionists history. What survey have you seen that Argentina was superior to England that day? Can you cite it? That's interesting...

In the 16 years after the game, almost all soccer fans in the world recognize 2 things:

1) the first goal was handball. Actually, I don't have any survey on this, but since the criminal had already confessed, there is no need for any more supporting evidence, i.e. a global opinion on whether it's handball.
2) the 2nd goal was considered the greatest goal scored in World Cup history.

These are the most prominent opinions on that game. Actually, the performance of the two teams became afterthoughts. Superiority of Argentina over England? Of course, in order to justify that fat midget's illegal act, Argentina fans desparately need this:

"all fans in the world recognize Argentina as the superior team, in other words, they would have won even if the HOG wasn't counted"

to justify his lack of integrity.


Perhaps your hatred of Argentina doesn't allow you to see that but your viewpoint is definitely the minority one.

Really? where is the majority one documented? I mean, we are not talking about the score here, but a universally recognized that Argentina played better on the field that day. Can you cite it?


Yes Maradona handled the ball but he also scored the greatest goal in World Cup history in that match.

This statement can also be written as "yes the midget scored the greatest goal in World Cup history but he also punched in the first goal".

Prey tell, how many goals is "the greatest goal in WC history counted on the scoreboard"? Does the greatest goal in WC history entitle him to punch the ball in for an extra goal?


Throughout that tournament Argentina showed they could beat all comers.

Not quite. They barely squeaked by Uruguay. They wouldn't have beaten England in full-time had the ref not gone blind. They had a 50% chance to beat England on penalties. They couldn't beat Italy either.


England did fairly well in that tournament but still struggled against Portugal and Morocco.

Of course, England didn't have the benefit of the refs going blind...

[Bauser]

Rangers, if you're gonna continue debating the Hand of God, please start a new thread! That's all I ask from you. The World Cup history is too rich to concentrate on one incident like that.

[argentine soccer fan]

Amen to that. Mexico 86 was a great cup, and Maradona was brilliant. That event should not be defined or diminished by one unfortunate play.

I was thinking about this discussion, and if we are going to talk about the champions since 1982, there is really not one team that stands out. Nobody has been dominant. Perhaps that is due to the fact that the talent is much more spread out than it used to be.

Bauser, I would not rank Italy 82 at the top. That was a very practical defensive team, and its greatest virtue was its ability to destroy rather than create. Yes, they had Paolo Rossi, who had the midas touch in that tournament. Everything he touched went in the goal. (Perhaps the gods were compensating for all the hardships he had endured in his life). But really, Italy's greatness as a champion could be defined more by the great teams that they managed to neutralize rather than by anything positive that they created. It was catennaccio at its best, but I have never been a fan of catennaccio.

Really, it is hard to pick the best since the 80's.

Argentina 86 was a solid and intelligent team, but they depended too much on one player for their creativity.

Germany in 90 was the best of a mediocre field.

Brasil in 94, with Romario at his best, could have been one of the great ones. But they played a system that was trying to limit the freedom of their talented players. Their last two matches were woeful.

France in 98 had a fortunate fixture until the final. They rose up to the occasion, but I wouldn't call them great by historical standards.

So, that leaves this year's Brasil. They had talent and played with gusto. Ronaldo managed to be great even though he wasn't 100 percent. Ronaldinho emerged as a superstar. Rivaldo was another great playmaker and finisher. They had solid goalkeeping and their defense was better than your typical Brasilian fare. And they could bring in guys like Juninho and Denilson just for the fireworks.

I must say that I kept thinking throughout the cup that this Brasil was beatable. But nobody rose up to the occasion. And looking back, I will give them the credit they deserve. They were better than I thought at the time. I will rank them the top team since the 80's.

[Merengue]

argentine soccer fan said,

" , I would not rank Italy 82 at the top. That was a very practical defensive team, and its greatest virtue was its ability to destroy rather than create. Yes, they had Paolo Rossi, who had the midas touch in that tournament. Everything he touched went in the goal. (Perhaps the gods were compensating for all the hardships he had endured in his life). But really, Italy's greatness as a champion could be defined more by the great teams that they managed to neutralize rather than by anything positive that they created. It was catennaccio at its best, but I have never been a fan of catennaccio."

As I have said previously it is extremely dififcult to rank teams from different eras but, like Bauser, i too placed Italy 1982 atop the list of best World Cup winners since 1982. I placed them above this year's Brazilian winners because Italy beat tougher opponents.

I disagree that year's Italy team only came to destroy. Certainly the misnamed Gentile did but Italy also attacked that year as demonstrated in their wins over Argentina and Brazil, not to mention their final victory over Germany.

Italy1982 was a very well balanced team which won the most competitive World Cup in the last 20 years. For that reason I ranked them as the best World Cup champion since 1982.

Argentine soccer fan, some people have also included 1978 in this list. Where would you rank Argentina's 1978 winners?

[Merengue]

Originally posted by Bauser
Rangers, if you're gonna continue debating the Hand of God, please start a new thread! That's all I ask from you. The World Cup history is too rich to concentrate on one incident like that.

Agree and thus I've started a new thread solely devoted to the 1986 World Cup.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=24288

If rangers, or anyone else, wants to continue their debate on that year's World cup let's discuss it over there.

[rangers00]

Originally posted by Bauser
Rangers, if you're gonna continue debating the Hand of God, please start a new thread! That's all I ask from you. The World Cup history is too rich to concentrate on one incident like that.

This is a legitimate topic (HOG) to invalidate Argentina 86 as one of the greatest champs in WC history. I suggest you do this: tell the Argentina fans to stop ranting and raving on such cheats, and you won't hear Argentina 1986 from me...

[argentine soccer fan]

Originally posted by Merengue
Argentine soccer fan, some people have also included 1978 in this list. Where would you rank Argentina's 1978 winners?

Argentina 78 is another tough one to rank. I have already said that (other than Diego) I consider it a much more talented team than Argentina 86. I was very young at the time and impressionable, and of course, with the cup being in Argentina we were all caught up in the excitement. I remember that team as bigger than life. But I will try to be objective.

We had a brilliant goalkeeper in Fillol. A great defense led by Pasarella and the great defensive midfielder Gallego. Our laterals, Tarantini and Olguin, also went well into attack. Our midfield had two great creative players in Ardiles and Houseman. The attack was awesome. Kempes was the most complete forward, but Luque was also a strong finisher, and Bertoni had great ability as well. This team was so good that coach Menotti could not find a spot for a young phenom called Diego Maradona.

This is a team that overcame strong pressure from two sides. They knew that the common people looked to the team for relief and escapism during a time of repression. At the same time, the military dictatorship made it clear that they expected success. And to top it off, they had to survive in the first round what was perhaps the toughest group-of-death ever, which included Italy, France and Hungary. And in the final they beat a Dutch team which even without Cruyff was still one of the best non-champions of all time.

On the negative side, the team did succumb to the great pressure to some extent. They lost to Italy in the first round, and with the passage to the final on the line only managed a tie with Brasil, which led to the controversial game against Peru. I would argue that they got the best of Brasil in that match, and deserved the win, but the game ended on a tie. So we have to accept that Argentina managed to get to the final only because of FIFA's flawed system. They knew how many goals they needed to score against Peru, after Brasil played Poland.

Because of that last reason, I am hescitant to put them ahead of Brasil 2002. I would perhaps rank them second.

[argentine soccer fan]

Originally posted by rangers00


This is a legitimate topic (HOG) to invalidate Argentina 86 as one of the greatest champs in WC history. I suggest you do this: tell the Argentina fans to stop ranting and raving on such cheats, and you won't hear Argentina 1986 from me...

Rangers00, one mistake by a ref is not enough to negate Maradona's great performance in 86, or the success of coach Bilardo's strategic ideas. If you want I will be glad to debate in detail in Merengue's new thread why Argentina was a better team than England that year. But you claim Argentines are not objective, and you are wrong. I admitted that Germany was a better team than us in 90, even though they beat us only by a ref's mistake. But you are not willing to admit what most fans know. Anyway, I will shut up about that topic in this thread.

[rangers00]

Originally posted by argentine soccer fan


Rangers00, one mistake by a ref is not enough to negate Maradona's great performance in 86, or the success of coach Bilardo's strategic ideas.

See what you say? This is not argument about Maradona's talent or dominance, or Bilardo's strategy. This is an argument about Argies' performance on that day against England, as well as their place among all champs since 1982. When all fails, just resort to Maradona's individual talent and the 2nd goal, that would deduce for you that Argentina was the greatest champ since 1982, huh?

Argentina 1986 wasn't dominant at all. Maradona was dominant. It's not tough to see that you can easily confuse the two: Maradona's individual dominance == Argentina's team dominance.

Yes, I think an illegitimate goal in a 2-1 win is enough to put a big ? on their "dominance", not to mention a squeaker against Uruguay and a lucky win against West Germany.


If you want I will be glad to debate in detail in Merengue's new thread why Argentina was a better team than England that year.

Go ahead, do it here. This is a thread about the greatest WC champs since 82. Putting down the 86 Argentina is as legit as praising the 2002 Brazil or 1982 Italy.


But you claim Argentines are not objective,

And yours are? You put your bias on your name.


and you are wrong.

I wonder how you can prove my ***OPINION*** as wrong. My opinion doesn't agree with yours, but how can it be wrong?

If I say Maradona is ugly and fat, an opinion, is it wrong? Why or why not?


I admitted that Germany was a better team than us in 90, even though they beat us only by a ref's mistake.

This is laughable to say the least. Just because
A beats B by a ref mistake while A is better, then it deduce that B must be better than C when B wins by a ref mistake?

I mean, you conceded that West Germany were the better team in 1990 albeit they won by a refereee mistake, you have no choice. That, BY NO MEANS, is a deduction that Argentina was the better team in 1986 when they won a referee mistake against England.

Where do you find the logic that "win by a ref mistake" => the better team? It's not your logic? then what does West Germany's 1990 win have to do with Argentina's 1986 win?

I can see that logic is not your strong suit.


But you are not willing to admit what most fans know. Anyway, I will shut up about that topic in this thread.
You better do, because you have no way to substantiate what "most fans know". The popular conclusions from 1986 were:

1) Maradona was one of the greatest players in the history of the game
2) 2nd goal against England was the greatest goal in WC history

If you have any survey that

3) Team Argentina was better than Team England on that day,

I have yet to see it. There is no way you can use (1) and (2) to deduce (3).

[Bauser]

If there was one team in Mexico '86 that really brought something extra to the tournament, but whose run was cut short because of refereing blunders, it was the Soviets.

They were on par with France both on the field and on the scoresheet. They demolished Hungary and beat Canada convincingly with a team full of reserves. They won their group. They had such a fluent passing game and looked like a well-drilled machinery much thanks to the large amount of players from one club, Dynamo Kiev. Between the pipes was Rinat Dasaev - arguably the best goalkeeper in the world at the time.

They scored 12 goals in the 4 games they got in Mexico. Some of them were fantastic goals from long range, but then came the second round game against Belgium which they lost 4-3 after extra time. One of Belgium's goals was clearly offside, another was very dubious. I read somewhere that this was the first and only time that Dasaev let in 4 goals in one game in his professional career. This Russian team could have challenged for the title, no doubt.

They came back at Euro 88 and reached the final having beaten Holland, England and Italy on the way. They lost of course in that second meeting with Holland in the final, but this generation at least had something to show off. They deserved that.

[Merengue]

Well we've lost some good content on this thread when this website crashed. Before the crash this was my favorite thread here so maybe we can get it going again!

Bauser was discussing USSR's 1986 team and they were good. I don't specifically recall them receiving bad calls in their loss to Belgium but that's not to say it didn't happen. Hard to belive that was now 16 1/2 years ago! I do remember that game as being a good one.

As a Spain fan I fondly recall Spain's 1986 team which included, amongst others, their 2002 World Cup coach Jose Camacho at left back. Plus that team had the incomparable Emilio Butragueño. Spain's 1986 team was in my view one of our best national teams at a World Cup along with the 2002 team. But as always they lost their nerve and went out in the quarterfinals to Belgium on penalties.

Remember the 1986 Spain team was based on the core of the team which was European runnersup in 1984 plus they had El Buitre and Michel who were coming into their prime. Back in 1986 I felt Spain had a team as good as France, Germany and Brazil. Oh well maybe one day we'll be able to win a major championship and won't always be considered Europe's biggest underachievers. If Raul hadn't bene injured in this past World Cup I think Spain might have been finalists in 2002.

[paulocesar]

It really would have been interesting to see Spain play Argentina in the 86 World Cup rather than Belgium. I'm sure Maradona would have loved to play them, given his tumultuous time at Barcelona.

Personally, the 1970 Brasil team was amazing in terms of great team, great players, and great style.

Would luv to see how that team could play against the 1974 Clockwork Orange team of Cryuff. Now that would be a great game!?!?

[paulocesar]

But as far as this years brasil team being the best lately...I'd say Germany 90, Italy 90, and Holland 98 would easily beat them. Its just unfortunate that Brazil's path to the final was easier even than most world cup champions (except for France's in 98...that was just laughable).

[striker]

Originally posted by condor11
i agree with bauser one of peru 1970 players said that peru was the only team that played the world cup without a gk
our gk in that wc was just crap

I thought Felix, the Brazilian keeper, was at least just as bad.

[Martin Cutler]

I've had a chance to recently look at some old World Cup highlights videos and it got me to thinking about the 1958 Brazil team compared to the 1970 Brazil squad. While 1970's team is considered by many to be the best World Cup champion of all tiem, we can't diminish the 1958 team either.

While 1970 had a great attack with Pele, Tostao, Jairzinho, Rivelino and Gerson, the 1958 squad was just as good if not better. They had a very young Pele, Vava, Garrincha, Zagallo and Didi. Defensively the 1970 squad was questionable, however, with only Carlos Alberto really standing out and he was more known for his overlapping. But the 1958 team had defensive stalwarts like Nilton and Djalma Santos. In goal 1970's Felix was not in the same class as 1958's Gilmar.

It's difficult to compare teams from different eras especially when I've only seen these teams play on video but I think a good argument can be made that the 1958 Brazil team may be even better than the 1970 team. Comments?

[ROM2]

Yer pays yer money yer makes yer chioce:

Brazil 1958
Brazil 1970
Brazil 1982
Brazil 2002

Argentina 1978
Argentina 1982
Argentina 1994

Holland 1974
Holland 1978

Look out for Argentina & Brazil in WC2006

[sinner78]

No Im still looking out for the argentina team of 2002.. The scarey team that was supposed to waltz its way straight to the final and lift the cup without breaking any sweat..
How did they do at 2002?? I cant remember.

[tpmazembe]

Originally posted by Martin Cutler
It's difficult to compare teams from different eras especially when I've only seen these teams play on video but I think a good argument can be made that the 1958 Brazil team may be even better than the 1970 team. Comments?

1958. Here are a couple of reasons why......

a) Brasil NEVER lost a game with Garrincha and Pele playing together! That should be enough to make Bra' 58 the better;

b) Brasil '58-62 is one of only two teams to win WC championships back-to-back;

c) Brasil '58 are still the only non-europeon team to have won a WC on European territory; and

d) as Martin Cutler points out, 1958 has a greater number of hall of famers on defense (given Nilton and Djalma Santos), as well as a better goalie.

In my mind the greatest WC team of all.

------------------------------------------------

In the documentary 'Isto e Pele' (circa 1972), Pele is asked about the two teams and says (paraphrasing).....

"Individually, the 1958 team had better players, if you went position by position.

Tactically the 1970 team was better.

I'd risk saying that, given the same tactical preparation, 1958 would win a game between the two."

[Martin Cutler]

Interesting comments from Pele. Of course I'd say by 1970 football was a more tactical game than it was in 1958. But like mazembe I too think the 1958 Brazil team was even better than the 1970 squad. I never knew about Pele and Garrincha never losing a game when they played together for Brazil. That is quite a record!

Anybody have an idea of how Brazil did in World Cup qualifiers during this period? And how they did in what was then the South American championship (now Copa America)?