Greatest World Cup Team of All Time

[Martin Cutler]

Originally posted by tpmazembe
I was at Foxboro for Arg-Nig, and at Cotton Bowl for Bra-Holland and I don't subscribe to this "vastly superior to Brasil" with Maradona argument.

Brasil had Romario is great form (a danger every time he touched the ball), Bebeto playing the willing and able sidekick, Dunga and Mauro Silva playing great defensive mid. The real difference however was in the center of defense where Aldair and Marcio Santos were rocks during that tournment. Great balance down the middle, and deadly up front.

I don't dispute the fact that Maradona's loss had a definite detrimental impact to the Arg squad, but I don't believe in this "had it won" argument I've seen creeping up on several threads. Based on what? Two games?



I don't see anyone here saying Argentina 94 was "vastly superior" to Brazil 94 tpmazembe. Some, including me, who saw both teams play in person in 1994 have said it would have been a great game between the two and that before Maradona's suspension Argentian was playing the best soccer in World Cup 1994. But it wasn't just Maradona's suspension that hurt Argentina in 1994, as Caniggia got injured and missed the Romania match where Argentina was eliminated in my opinion the best match of WC94.

Brazil did have the better defense then and while Romario and Bebeto made a fine attacking duo, the Brazilian midfield was more hard workers (Dunga, Mauro Silva, Mazinho & Zinho) than inspiration. A matchup in 1994 between Argentina and Brazil would have been a classic one but I feel Argentina's skilled attackers would have given them an advantage even without Maradona. Remember in both 1991 and 1993, when countries sent their top teams to Copa America, a Maradona less Argentina won both those Copa Americas.

Argentina, unlike other nations in 1994 including powerhouses like Holland and Italy, would not have been scared of Brazil and they would have attacked them. With the skilled players in Argentina's midfield and attack I think they would have controlled the ball and in my opinion would have been the favorites.

Of course it's all conjecture here but isn't that one of the points of this fine thread? I enjoyed watching Brazil 94 very much and saw them play in person 4 times during the Cup (including the final) and will never forget the great post game party in the streets of Pasadena. I think Brazil 94 was a good champion but I will always wonder what would have happened if Maradona hadn't been suspended and Caniggia hadn't missed the Romania game.

[tpmazembe]

Originally posted by Martin Cutler
I don't see anyone here saying Argentina 94 was "vastly superior" to Brazil 94 tpmazembe. Remember in both 1991 and 1993, when countries sent their top teams to Copa America, a Maradona less Argentina won both those Copa Americas.

Of course it's all conjecture here but isn't that one of the points of this fine thread? I enjoyed watching Brazil 94 very much and saw them play in person 4 times during the Cup (including the final) and will never forget the great post game party in the streets of Pasadena. I think Brazil 94 was a good champion but I will always wonder what would have happened if Maradona hadn't been suspended and Caniggia hadn't missed the Romania game.

Indeed Martin you never made those statements, but throughout the boards you can hear the "well on the way to winning it" tone in reference to Arg '94.

In 1989 Argentina had an on form Maradona participate in the Copa America and where beaten 2-0 by Bebeto and Romario; and Dunga locked up Maradona. So, from your examples Arg won without him, from mine they lost with him. The beauty and twists of football.

Again, I was at the Foxboro game and saw a very good Argentine side, no doubt. What I also saw was a slow defense having trouble with the Nigerian forwards. They would have had quite a few more troubles with Romario of the '94 vintage (the one who would run at defenders).

Could Argentina have beaten Bra in a scenario such as you describe-- of course. Any time traditional rivalries are played you throw everything out of the window. Emotion, who scores first, how tightly the refs call the game all impact these matchups much more than X's and O's, and even who is on the field. Having seen both in person, admittedly only once each, I thought Bra' 94 was a more complete team, and would not have allowed Arg to control the midfield.

My intent was not to discredit the merits of that Arg '94 team, just an attempt to inject some perspective to, what at least I perceived to be, an overly rosy picture of that squad.

The fact is we have no idea what would have happened.

Where you at the Cotton Bowl also?

And Argentine Soccer Fan, one of my wishes before I die, is to see an Arg-Bra WC Final game in person (the game for the trophy that is). Post that event, I think I will have truly experienced all the non-familial joys life has to offer!

[Gilstar10]

Originally posted by Martin Cutler
I don't see anyone here saying Argentina 94 was "vastly superior" to Brazil 94 tpmazembe. Some, including me, who saw both teams play in person in 1994 have said it would have been a great game between the two and that before Maradona's suspension Argentian was playing the best soccer in World Cup 1994. But it wasn't just Maradona's suspension that hurt Argentina in 1994, as Caniggia got injured and missed the Romania match where Argentina was eliminated in my opinion the best match of WC94.

Brazil did have the better defense then and while Romario and Bebeto made a fine attacking duo, the Brazilian midfield was more hard workers (Dunga, Mauro Silva, Mazinho & Zinho) than inspiration. A matchup in 1994 between Argentina and Brazil would have been a classic one but I feel Argentina's skilled attackers would have given them an advantage even without Maradona. Remember in both 1991 and 1993, when countries sent their top teams to Copa America, a Maradona less Argentina won both those Copa Americas.

Argentina, unlike other nations in 1994 including powerhouses like Holland and Italy, would not have been scared of Brazil and they would have attacked them. With the skilled players in Argentina's midfield and attack I think they would have controlled the ball and in my opinion would have been the favorites.

Of course it's all conjecture here but isn't that one of the points of this fine thread? I enjoyed watching Brazil 94 very much and saw them play in person 4 times during the Cup (including the final) and will never forget the great post game party in the streets of Pasadena. I think Brazil 94 was a good champion but I will always wonder what would have happened if Maradona hadn't been suspended and Caniggia hadn't missed the Romania game.

Well, USA 94 final was a disgrace because Brazil win the cup thanks to Roberto Baggio´s mistake...
Nothing to be so proud of, and Italy for sure screamed to the sky.
I didn´t remember the Caniggia injury, another negative point to that Argentinian team.
Also remember the Italy 90 final, nothing to be so proud of for Germany, also with a good team. But Maradona was so injuried, he was sick of his knees and rival players didn´t help, Diego was surrounded and couldn´t play. Even tough he and Caniggia put Brazil out of the World Cup.

[comme]

It was hardly Germany's fault in 90 that argentina came to play for pens. The game where brazil lost to argentina was a disgrace as well, argentina were totally outplayed but Maradona conjured something from thin air.

[argentine soccer fan]

Originally posted by comme
It was hardly Germany's fault in 90 that argentina came to play for pens.

It was hardly Argentina's fault that Germany was awarded a non-existent penalty to win the world cup.

I supposed it was Argentina's fault that they let Diego play even though he could barely walk. But I guess he was such a genius that they figured even playing on one leg he might do some magic, as he did against Brasil.

[Mobile]

Originally posted by argentine soccer fan
Diego was the difference maker, and we would probably have won the World Cup again if he had not been a fat little junkie cheat.

Fixed your post.

[argentine soccer fan]

I thought that only brilliant posters like Mr. Cam had the wits and creativity required to change other people's posts. I guess you must be as intelligent as he is. (Or maybe you are him).

[White Shark]

Originally posted by comme
It was hardly Germany's fault in 90 that argentina came to play for pens. The game where brazil lost to argentina was a disgrace as well, argentina were totally outplayed but Maradona conjured something from thin air.

Italy 90:Germany didn´t win fair that cup, and Brazil was kicked out so good!!!
Disgrace was Brazil winnig 94 WC just for a Italian mistake!! Boooooooo for Brazil.

[Brownswan]

Originally posted by argentine soccer fan
It was hardly Argentina's fault that Germany was awarded a non-existent penalty to win the world cup.



Like most of us here I watched the Final on tv, and replayed the tape many times. In my opinion the penal was a fair call -- but there was an earlier take-down of Augenthaler in the box that blatantly deserved a call.

Could be the ref was looking to correct a big oversight. Yeah, they're not supposed to think like that, but they're only human. So I'm told.

Beckenbauer basically said it was fair final, but only Germany showed up to play football.

[Bauser]

Originally posted by Brownswan
Like most of us here I watched the Final on tv, and replayed the tape many times. In my opinion the penal was a fair call -- but there was an earlier take-down of Augenthaler in the box that blatantly deserved a call.
The penalty Germany got was no penalty IMO. Rudi Völler couldn't dive. It just wasn't his thing. It looked incredibly fake to see him fall on his stomach there battling with Sensini(?). Klinsmann, on the other hand, could have made it look more real. After all, he perfected the art of diving and added a few bonus roll-overs when Pedro Monzon was sent off earlier in the game.

Having said all this, Germany deserved to win. They were by far the best team.

[Auriaprottu]

Originally posted by Gilstar10
Well, USA 94 final was a disgrace because Brazil win the cup thanks to Roberto Baggio´s mistake...
Nothing to be so proud of, and Italy for sure screamed to the sky.


Hey Seuss Christ... every match is won because someone made a mistake. Every goal is the result of a mistake or someone not being good enough at the right time. Brasil had a kick in hand; apparently you are certain Bebeto would have missed.


Also remember the Italy 90 final, nothing to be so proud of for Germany, also with a good team. But Maradona was so injuried, he was sick of his knees and rival players didn´t help, Diego was surrounded and couldn´t play.

Try not to blame Germany for showing up with more depth than Argentina could muster. A loss is what happens when you don't finish, like Brasil '90 against Argentina, and it's also what happens when an otherwise mediocre team depends on one player and he gets injured.

Your post suggests that you should be proud only when your team has won with fireworks and beautiful goals. That's not how Germany plays. They've never been entertaining. Holland is entertaining, but their legacy is failure. Germany just wins. They win by combining depth with discipline and training, like Brasil. And that work ethic (Germany reaching the final with so many injuries, Brasil winning the Cup without Romario) is something more deserving of pride than having a once in a lifetime superstar like Maradona just fall into your lap.

[Auriaprottu]

Originally posted by White Shark
Italy 90:Germany didn´t win fair that cup, and Brazil was kicked out so good!!!
Disgrace was Brazil winnig 94 WC just for a Italian mistake!! Boooooooo for Brazil.

You know...


Argentina didn't even get out of the first damn round.

It was the most embarassing result by an allegedly talented team I have ever witnessed in almost 30 years of playing and watching soccer.

Even worse because Argentina is a nation on my side of the world. You disgraced the Americas with your sorry performance. I was embarassed at your team's pathetic showing. Any other country's supporters would be somewhere trying not to be seen or heard for the next four years after their national side was exposed for being the disappointing bunch of front runners they turned out to be. Yet, Argentina fans continue to post as though they have something to brag about. 1986 was a long time ago. You don't see the French running around here beating their chests, do you? They crawled back into their hole after their dethroning. Have you people never heard of laying low after you get your asses handed to you by a couple of midtable UEFA teams?

[DavidPablo]

Originally posted by Auriaprottu
You disgraced the Americas with your sorry performance. I was embarassed at your team's pathetic showing.

What are you talking about? Did you watch any of Argentina's games?

Yes, it was a failure, but the team played its guts out. They constantly attacked in all three games. You can say that our forwards failed to score when they needed to and it is true. You can say that some of our midfielders underachieved. But you cannot fault the team for a lack of effort. (Unlike France, for example). Our guys played with pride and they left it all on the field. The results weren't there but I am proud of a team which played under a lot of pressure and gave everything they had.

They failed, but they were not an embarrasment.

[Auriaprottu]

Originally posted by DavidPablo
What are you talking about? Did you watch any of Argentina's games?

Yes, it was a failure, but the team played its guts out. They constantly attacked in all three games. You can say that our forwards failed to score when they needed to and it is true. You can say that some of our midfielders underachieved. But you cannot fault the team for a lack of effort. (Unlike France, for example). Our guys played with pride and they left it all on the field. The results weren't there but I am proud of a team which played under a lot of pressure and gave everything they had.

They failed, but they were not an embarrasment.

DavidPablo, I did see the games, and I apologize to you for the tone of my previous post. It wasn't intended for you or any other Argentina supporters who post without trolling attacks on other teams and players who have experienced a great deal of success. There are a number of Argentina supporters (I did not say "Argentines", because I don't know or care where these posters are from; anyone can and should follow whatever team they choose) that display extremely poor taste by trolling, making excuses, and ridculing fans who dare to disagree with their view on the world's greatest player. I've stooped to the level of these trolls on occasion by airing my views on 1978, and it was wrong of me to do so. It may be just me, but I think BigSoccer seems to have more trolls who support Argentina than other national teams. The site would be better off without them. Your response to my post showed true class, and I hope your fellow Albiceleste fans can learn someday to do the same.

[Bauser]

Originally posted by DavidPablo
Yes, it was a failure, but the team played its guts out. They constantly attacked in all three games.
If it's any consolation, Swedish goalkeeper Magnus Hedman said in the post-match interview that the Argentina team were the best opponents he had ever faced in his professional career.

[Mobile]

Originally posted by argentine soccer fan
I thought that only brilliant posters like Mr. Cam had the wits and creativity required to change other people's posts. I guess you must be as intelligent as he is. (Or maybe you are him).

Now now, don't get upset. If you behave yourself I'll teach you how to do it as well.

[Awe-Inspiring]

Originally posted by Auriaprottu
Brasil had a kick in hand; apparently you are certain Bebeto would have missed.


It's a credit to Bebeto's ability that he is known as more than simply the guy who didn't get to take the last penalty kick in a final. ;)

[Martin Cutler]

I recently watched a tape I had made back in 1994 when Telemundo was showing some past World Cup finals. I watched the 1974 World Cup Final between Holland and West Germany. I had previously read plenty about that World Cup and was always under the impression that Holland were unlucky not to win that year and they were the "people's champion" from that World Cup.

Watching that game, however, I had another impression and frankly came away very, very impressed with Germany's 1974 World Cup winners. Holland obviously were a very skilled team and led by Cruyff and Neeskens they played some good soccer but their defense and goalkeeper were relatively weak. Berti Vogts man marked Cruyff out of the game (after Cruyff created the penalty in the opening minute). Neeskens and Van Hanegem played well, particularly Neeskens but Germany to me always looked like the better team in that 1974 Final.

Germany had a great goalkeeper in Sepp Maier, solid man markers in Schwarzenbeck and Vogts, a Franz Beckenbauer who was anchoring the defense, always well positioned and ready and able to start a counter attack out of the back. A fullback in Paul Breitner who was good on the ball and always ready to get in attack yet still did a lot of dirty work. In midfield was a grafter in Bonhof, Overath who had a refined left foot and was a good passer in the mold of Bernd Schuster and a super active and very direct and quick Uli Hoeness who'd run right at defenders but then could be seen defending in his own penalty area.

On the wings were Jurgen Grabowski on the right who was effective both defending and attacking and Bernd Holzenbein on the left who was a very quick winger who caused so many troubles for the Dutch with his speed and directness. The lone center forward was of course "der Bomber" Gerd Muller. I'd read a lot about his opportunism in front of goal but what a deadly finisher anytime you got him near goal. plus it was hilarious watching his little legs go like crazy, like a cartoon character's legs spinning in circles, as he chased after a ball. Think of a faster perhaps less skillful version of Romario.

Holland jumped out to an early lead with their opening minute PK and controlled the game for the first 15 minutes but then Germany came into the match and got a PK back. The Dutch missed a great chance at the other end when Rep's shot on the break was saved by Maier. After that Germany scored again just before halftime when Muller took a cross from the right, stopped on a dime and turned and redirected the ball past a stunned Dutch keeper.

In the 2nd half, Muller had a goal wrongly called back for offside-he was a meter onside when the pass was made and Holzenbein should have received another penalty when he was fouled in the penalty area again. Both teams were going at each other and the game was plsyed at a very fast rate yet there was a lot of skill on display by both teams. With 20 minutes to go Germany pulled everyone but Muller deep into their half and the Dutch tried breaking through but without much success. When they did find a way through the defense they couldn't get past Maier in goal. Finally the Dutch looked like they lost steam and in the final minutes Germany again controlled the game and almost scored again.

If I'm not mistaken many of the German players were on Germany's 1972 team which I believe dominated the European championship that year. The Dutch were rightly praised for their fine and skillful play in 1974 but people tend to ignore the World Cup winners that year in Germany who from 1972-74 were a truly dominant team. I think any discussion of the top teams of all time should also include this extremely good German team (and this coming from someone who isn't a real fan of German football).

[tpmazembe]

Originally posted by Martin Cutler
I think any discussion of the top teams of all time should also include this extremely good German team (and this coming from someone who isn't a real fan of German football).

Good job Martin. Brings back memories of my first lucid WC. You are right, history only credits the Oranje for total football; but W.Germany’s team played their own version of it as well. And the quality in the German back line is amazing. Breitner is one of the best right backs of all time in my book (his quality became even more apparent when he moved to central midfield). As an aside: only three players have ever scored a goal in more the one championship game of the WC Finals – Pele, Vava, and Paul Breitner.

As for one of the best of all time, they don’t quite make the cut in my view (at the highest echelon of course; they're a class side for sure) due to the loss against Dem. Rep., and narrow wins against Chile and Poland. IMO, if you're going to win the WC only once, and at home, it needs to be in a dominating fashion to be in the running for B-O-A-T.

Rainer Bonhof, Johan Neeskens…great names.

[Bauser]

Originally posted by tpmazembe
As for one of the best of all time, they don’t quite make the cut in my view (at the highest echelon of course; they're a class side for sure) due to the loss against Dem. Rep., and narrow wins against Chile and Poland. IMO, if you're going to win the WC only once, and at home, it needs to be in a dominating fashion to be in the running for B-O-A-T.
Poland knocked out England in the qualifiers and beat Brazil, Italy and Argentina in the actual tournament. Hardly a team to beat by funny numbers. Even a 1-0 win was an accomplishment.

Germany '74, despite Holland's strength, remains one of the better champions in my opinion.