Official German "Nationalmannschaft" thread

[footyfan1]

I don't watch as much Bundesliga as I would like, as there is very little television coverage over here, but I have a hard time believing that Kahn has had a much worse season than Lehmann. He had a brilliant FA Cup final, but other than that, Lehmann wasn't even in the top 10, IMO, goalkeepers in the EPL. Besides, one of Lehmann's biggest problems (may be due to the language) seems to be communication and decision making, which is very dangerous if you take into consideration that, no matter what the centre-back pairing is for the WC, chances are they won't have played together for more than a year on the NT. In terms of outright physical ability, Kahn may no longer be number one, but unless there is a better alternative than Lehmann, Kahn should still be #1, IMO.


I think Lehmann's biggest problem was Arsenal's crappy defense.

BTW, when Arsenal went unbeaten, who was in goal??

Are you telling me Arsenal's form slump is Lehmann's fault??

Lehmann fell victim to the same thing many good keepers in England have fallen victim to.

Getting blamed as a goalkeeper when the real problem is your defense sucking ass in front of you.

Want another example?? Gerard Houllier running off David James and Brad Friedel. Neither keeper was Liverpool's problem back then. Liverpool just had a crappy back four. Jerzy Dudek certainly isn't any better than James, Friedel, or Dudek's Dutch predecessor. (Can't remember his name at the moment)

Look at what James and Friedel have become since. James, England #1 and Friedel winning Premiership Goalkeeper of the Year the year after and remaining USA #1 until he quit. I don't think Blackburn fans have any problems with Friedel.

Yeah, Lehmann made some mistakes, but no more than any other good keeper makes when his defense sucks ass in front of him. I also think Lehmann proved his mettle in the FA Cup Final.

Lehmann certainly wasn't booting balls around the way Kahn did in 02-03 and 03-04.

Kahn wasn't great this past season, but he was better than the previous two seasons because Bayern strengthened that defense in front of him.

Lehmann certainly outperformed Kahn in their two matches in the Confed Cup. I hope Kahn faces Brazil and does better.

However, right now, I have no doubt who the better keeper is between Lehmann and Kahn. It's Lehmann and has been since 02-03.

But that's not my decision, it's Klinsi's. And for the twentieth time, if Klinsi selects Kahn, I'll wish Kahn all the best. I want to see Germany do well.

[footyfan1]

Klinsi isnt the guy who would put the worse goalkeeper in goal just because its Kahn. So lets trust him. If he thinks Lehmann is really better, then he would draw the conclusions! I wouldnt have a bad feeling with either of the two. Lehmann and Kahn did have similar performances with the national team.


I agree. That's why I think these comments aren't the end of anything.

[Germanshepherd]

I agree. That's why I think these comments aren't the end of anything.

Judging from the Tunisia and the Australia games, I would have a better feeling with Lehmann in goal, because he showed a superb performance vs. the Africans. But as you pointed out, its important how good the defense is in front of a goalkeeper, and the german defense against Australia was way worse than against Tunisia.
But if Lehmann is great against Brazil,too, that could be a real sign not only for Klinsi but for the whole german public!

[scorpio81]

id just put timo in goal for the rest of the tournament and give him competitive experience! :cool:

[footyfan1]

id just put timo in goal for the rest of the tournament and give him competitive experience! :cool:


I honestly think you aren't going to see much of Hildebrand in the German team after 2006-2007. I think he'll be overtaken by the likes of Enke, Jentsch, Weidenfeller and Wiese.

I believe all four of those guys are better than Hildebrand.

Hildebrand had the benefit of that great Stuttgart defense for two years.

It weakened and he weakened in the Bundesliga.

[schafer]

I think Lehmann's biggest problem was Arsenal's crappy defense.

BTW, when Arsenal went unbeaten, who was in goal??

Are you telling me Arsenal's form slump is Lehmann's fault??

Lehmann fell victim to the same thing many good keepers in England have fallen victim to.

Getting blamed as a goalkeeper when the real problem is your defense sucking ass in front of you.

Want another example?? Gerard Houllier running off David James and Brad Friedel. Neither keeper was Liverpool's problem back then. Liverpool just had a crappy back four. Jerzy Dudek certainly isn't any better than James, Friedel, or Dudek's Dutch predecessor. (Can't remember his name at the moment)

Look at what James and Friedel have become since. James, England #1 and Friedel winning Premiership Goalkeeper of the Year the year after and remaining USA #1 until he quit. I don't think Blackburn fans have any problems with Friedel.

Yeah, Lehmann made some mistakes, but no more than any other good keeper makes when his defense sucks ass in front of him. I also think Lehmann proved his mettle in the FA Cup Final.



I see where you're coming from, but I still question Lehmann's ability. Arsenal certainly don't have a deep defense, but when Campbell and Toure play together, they are very solid. Besides, Arsenal's unbeaten run had more to do with their stellar offense than it did with Lehmann. Take the 5-3 Middlesborough game. Lehmann let in a 35-yard shot from Queudre that, if Lehmann would have been in position, would have been a routine save. Unless Arsenal's defense is supposed to limit shots to 40-yards, then it is hard to blame them for stuff like that. I'll admit that the defenses in England seem to be poorer than in other leagues, but that has alot to do with the pace of the game. I agree with you, goalies often bear the brunt of the criticism, but David James is a poor example IMO. True, he was England #1, but that really isn't saying much these days. As for Friedel, when did he win EPL goalie of the year? (Not saying it didn't happen, I just honestly don't know)

Finally, Lehmann did have a stellar FA cup Final, but that certainly doesn't prove his mettle. Dudek had a great CL final, but still has to fight for the #1 place at liverpool. In goalkeeping, one game doesn't mean alot.

The intent of my original post wasn't to say that Lehmann should be dropped from the German NT, just that, when the defensive partnership is as unfamiliar with each other as the one at the WC probably will be, then I would choose Kahn.

[footyfan1]

(David James)True, he was England #1, but that really isn't saying much these days.

So what? Being England #1 is a prestigous position no matter when you hold it.


As for Friedel, when did he win EPL goalie of the year? (Not saying it didn't happen, I just honestly don't know)

2003. Look it up.


Finally, Lehmann did have a stellar FA cup Final, but that certainly doesn't prove his mettle. Dudek had a great CL final, but still has to fight for the #1 place at liverpool. In goalkeeping, one game doesn't mean alot.

It does when people are constantly calling you s#it.



[QUOTE=schafer] The intent of my original post wasn't to say that Lehmann should be dropped from the German NT, just that, when the defensive partnership is as unfamiliar with each other as the one at the WC probably will be, then I would choose Kahn.

Why? He'll be just as unfamiliar with them. And Kahn's decision-making hasn't been any better than Lehmann's since 2002......

[schafer]

So what? Being England #1 is a prestigous position no matter when you hold it.




2003. Look it up.


[QUOTE=schafer] Finally, Lehmann did have a stellar FA cup Final, but that certainly doesn't prove his mettle. Dudek had a great CL final, but still has to fight for the #1 place at liverpool. In goalkeeping, one game doesn't mean alot.

It does when people are constantly calling you s#it.





Why? He'll be just as unfamiliar with them. And Kahn's decision-making hasn't been any better than Lehmann's since 2002......

Ok, you've proved your point. But I'm still not convinced it should be Lehmann. Since 2002 there must be more consistent german goalkeepers than Lehmann or Kahn? Based on club form alone, wouldn't Hildebrand be the logical #1?

[scorpio81]

lehmann also fvkked up in allowing crespo to equalize late in the game vs argentina at dusseldorf...

his judgement was not the best then...

neither of them inspires confidence anymore... id take kahn over lehmann, but timo over kahn...

[footyfan1]

Ok, you've proved your point. But I'm still not convinced it should be Lehmann. Since 2002 there must be more consistent german goalkeepers than Lehmann or Kahn? Based on club form alone, wouldn't Hildebrand be the logical #1?


No. Hildebrand proved how much of his success was the Stuttgart defense and not him this past season. He's not bad, but he's not the third best German keeper.

He's simply the one who got all the press. Young, "handsome" and still listens to his mother.

Lehmann and Kahn will get the nod in this World Cup based mostly on experience.

There's no one else ready because under Sepp Maier, Kahn could lose limbs and still be chosen ahead of anyone who might deserve it more.

As I said in another post, I don't think you are going to see much of Hildebrand in the national team past 06-07. He's going to be overtaken by Enke, Jentsch, Weidenfeller and Wiese.

I think the only way you will see much of Hildebrand after 06-07 is if he moves to Bayern to replace Kahn.

If the Bayern keeper is German, he almost automatically gets a shot at Germany #1.

[schafer]

No. Hildebrand proved how much of his success was the Stuttgart defense and not him this past season. He's not bad, but he's not the third best German keeper.

He's simply the one who got all the press. Young, "handsome" and still listens to his mother.

Lehmann and Kahn will get the nod in this World Cup based mostly on experience.

There's no one else ready because under Sepp Maier, Kahn could lose limbs and still be chosen ahead of anyone who might deserve it more.

As I said in another post, I don't think you are going to see much of Hildebrand in the national team past 06-07. He's going to be overtaken by Enke, Jentsch, Weidenfeller and Wiese.

I think the only way you will see much of Hildebrand after 06-07 is if he moves to Bayern to replace Kahn.

If the Bayern keeper is German, he almost automatically gets a shot at Germany #1.

Sorry, I don't watch as much Bundesliga as I would like. How old are Enke, Weidenfeller and Wiese, and where does Jentsch play?

[sting-ray]

Wolfsburg

enke - 27
wiese - 23
weidenfeller - 24

i think

[footyfan1]

Sorry, I don't watch as much Bundesliga as I would like. How old are Enke, Weidenfeller and Wiese, and where does Jentsch play?


Oldest to youngest:

Simon Jentzsch - 29 (VfL Wolfsburg)

Robert Enke - 27 (Hannover 96)

Timo Hildebrand - 26 (VfB Stuttgart)

Roman Weidenfeller - 24 (Borussia Dortmund)

Tim Wiese - 23 (Werder Bremen/Previously FC Kaiserslautern)


Honestly, I believe if Wiese has fully recovered from his knee surgery, he and Weidenfeller will become the new "Kahn & Lehmann".

Jentzsch and Enke both should have been considered earlier in their careers, but no one was getting past Kahn as long as Sepp Maier was in charge and Lehmann out-performed them also.

I think you guys will see that if Stuttgart's defense comes "back to earth" as they did this past season, Timo Hildebrand is really just a slightly above average keeper. However he makes the plays he's supposed to make and every now and then makes a great save.

Those weren't as prevelant from him this past season.

Weidenfeller put Borussia Dortmund on his back in the second half of the season. He'll have to prove he can keep up that form, but all signs are that he will.

And attitude-wise, I think Wiese and Weidenfeller closely mirror Oliver Kahn.

They are both "arrogant" enough for the job.

[schafer]

Are there any German gk's playing outside of Germany (other than Lehmann) that are even remote possibilities?

[footyfan1]

Are there any German gk's playing outside of Germany (other than Lehmann) that are even remote possibilities?


No. And Lehmann only kept getting consideration because he was already #2 when he left and Klinsmann actually follows keepers other than Kahn.

The other coaches really didn't do that.

[Germanshepherd]

Jentzsch and Enke both should have been considered earlier in their careers, but no one was getting past Kahn as long as Sepp Maier was in charge and Lehmann out-performed them also.

Enke had one season at Gladbach and then moved to Benfica where he had a hard time, only then to move to Barcelona where was totally lost and was even thrown out of the squad. This past season was the first season where he was back into the spotlight on toplevel. Oh, and Jentzsch I dont like him.

I agree, Weidenfeller and Wiese will be the future. Wiese even plays CL next season with Bremen, he could have a stellar career.

[arthur d]

Are there any German gk's playing outside of Germany (other than Lehmann) that are even remote possibilities?

Whatever happened to Stefan Klos? He had a couple of outstanding years with Rangers.

[footyfan1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by schafer
Are there any German gk's playing outside of Germany (other than Lehmann) that are even remote possibilities?


Whatever happened to Stefan Klos? He had a couple of outstanding years with Rangers.


You really think a guy playing in Scotland is going to get consideration??

That's like me telling Uli Hoeness he should sign my son because my son scored 30 goals in his local league.

Klos was once Germany #3 behind Andreas Koepke and Oliver Kahn. He was even ranked ahead of Lehmann.

Klos blew that when he went to Scotland, Lehmann took Klos' place at Dortmund and did the job better than Klos ever did.

[SirManchester]

Wiese and Weidenfeller are certainly the future, but they are NOT ready yet and should NOT play in next year's WC.

And don't worry about Kahn in goal next year, its his last action so I'm sure he'll turn up his game, just have some confidence in him.

[footyfan1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by footyfan1
Jentzsch and Enke both should have been considered earlier in their careers, but no one was getting past Kahn as long as Sepp Maier was in charge and Lehmann out-performed them also.


Enke had one season at Gladbach and then moved to Benfica where he had a hard time, only then to move to Barcelona where was totally lost and was even thrown out of the squad. This past season was the first season where he was back into the spotlight on top-level.


Correct. Didn't Enke come up through Gladbach's youth system or who was he with when he was a kid??

At one time, Enke was considered Germany's young goalkeeping "hope" along with Darius Kampa. I do remember Kampa was at FC Augsburg before moving to 1. FC Nuernberg. Kampa is now at Gladbach. Or have they fired him yet?

Anyhow, at that time, Enke believed his press clippings, became very arrogant and thought Gladbach should have retired Uwe Kamps in favor of him. When they didn't, his attitude because too much for them to handle. Then, I believe he did play regularly for two seasons at Benfica before he started making mistakes. Barca signed him and again, he failed.

From what I've heard, Enke's little daughter has been having serious health problems and that seems to have matured him. He's now showing signs of being the keeper the press predicted he would be.



Oh, and Jentzsch I dont like him.

He's not my favorite either, but his talent can't be denied.



I agree, Weidenfeller and Wiese will be the future. Wiese even plays CL next season with Bremen, he could have a stellar career.

If that knee heals properly, Wiese will be either Germany #1 or #2 within two seasons. As I said, I think both Wiese and Weidenfeller will overtake Timo Hildebrand.

Another thing about Wiese and Weidenfeller. They both "made their names" at 1. FC Kaiserslautern. Too many only hear about Sepp Maier. I think FCK goalkeeper trainer Gerald Ehrmann is the best German goalkeeper trainer.