So what will it take for United to again become the flagship franchise of MLS?

[ursula]

Yesterday's LA win in Foxboro carried with it the statement that the Gals are the class franchise in MLS, the standard by which the rest of the teams are measured. Actually it was a final statement of a sorts as they have been the de facto kings of the game for a year now, but LA needed an MLS Cup to remove all doubt. So now they have the Cup which they are adding to their trophy case that includes them defending their USOC Cup soon and their CCC trophy, for which they were not allowed to defend this year. They have a new SSS set to open next year with state of the art practice facilities. They have a coach who just finished his 4th year who has been very successful at every level he's coached at. he has installed a remarkably stable system (given the salary cap) that has a nice balance of foreign players, some good older americans and skilled young americans- a system that in no way looks like it will have to be dismantled anytime soon.

The truth hurts, don't it?

Of course DCU used to be the state of the art team. practically everything I wrote above could be written about United for the four years 96-99. We still have more trophies. We had the best coach, who was the logical next Nats coach, and his successor seemingly followed in his footsteps to keep the franchise great. The GM seemed to know all the right moves to stave off the ravages of the salary cap. We had (and have) a sort-of quasi SSS with the best practice facility in the league. We had international recognition (which we still do as reputations live on after the fall.)

Then everything fell apart. In 2000 the team played awful, the GM and coach were worse, and we lost the practice facility. In 2001 we lost much of the core of the team to the cap and panic and now after 02 we haven't sniffed the playoffs in three years.

LA didn't take our crown in 2000 though. It looked like it was passing to Chicago. Sportswriters kept saying that Bradley and Wilt were the class of the league. They did win the USOC that year but lost the bigger title, the MLS Cup. But they never won any international recognition, starting with the CCC, and they never won the supporters shield. IMO the Fire's decline can be traced to their inability to get their SSS near O'hare built due to a lack of political backing. This lead to them searching for a place to play as Soldier Field was rebuilt- weather they wanted it rebuilt was not important to the powers that be-and this finally lead them to exile in Naperville, a second class facility in every way. Eventually they will again become second class tenants at Soldier Field, but but Bradley will be gone and with him the continuity that the Fire were so close to attaining.

So the Fire's reign was short-lived, just a year. LA moved into the lead position last year, symbolically beating Chicago in the MLS Cup playoffs and in the USOC. Still they didn't have the crown totally intact as the e-Quakes won MLS Cup last year and looked like a young, lively team. the end of the current season saw the Quakes drop off though as they didn't have the vision needed to stay on top. maybe they'll come back next year, but to me it looks like they have several holes opening up even if LD stays. They look like KC in 2000 to me.


Which gets us back to our beloved United. Do we have what it takes in players and the front office to really challenge LA? We've talked a lot on this board about needed player changes, but what about the management? Can they get us a real SSS? A real practice facility? Do they really understand the salary cap and the Superdraft? I have my doubts as there were several bad moves this year but I'll keep an open mind for this winter (do I have a choice?) I think what Hudson and Kaspar do THIS winter will have repercussions for several more years just like we are still feeling the effects of hiring Rongen in the winter of 98 and trading away Goos and Llamosa et al in the winter of 00.

To be successful in this league- really successful- requires a stability of vision along with political acumen that we haven't had since Arena was working with Payne. Without those qualities we'll either be a) bottom feeders like we are now, b) playoff contenders like Dallas or Colorado with no real prospects of dominance as they have no real vision or c) one year suprises like KC, and probably SJ and NE.

[Sandon Mibut]

It will take:

*Patience

*Luck

*Good management

*No interference from the non-soccer side

*Creating a solid blueprint and sticking with it!

*Not blowing draft picks, which includes proper scouting of prospective players.

*Bang for the buck from high salaried players.

*Being willing to let go of players, regardless of past accomplishments, when they are no longer competing at a high enough level.

*Did I mention luck?

[owendylan]

Originally posted by ursula
Yesterday's LA win in Foxboro carried with it the statement that the Gals are the class franchise in MLS, the standard by which the rest of the teams are measured. Actually it was a final statement of a sorts as they have been the de facto kings of the game for a year now, but LA needed an MLS Cup to remove all doubt. So now they have the Cup which they are adding to their trophy case that includes them defending their USOC Cup soon and their CCC trophy, for which they were not allowed to defend this year. They have a new SSS set to open next year with state of the art practice facilities. They have a coach who just finished his 4th year who has been very successful at every level he's coached at. he has installed a remarkably stable system (given the salary cap) that has a nice balance of foreign players, some good older americans and skilled young americans- a system that in no way looks like it will have to be dismantled anytime soon.

The truth hurts, don't it?

Of course DCU used to be the state of the art team. practically everything I wrote above could be written about United for the four years 96-99. We still have more trophies. We had the best coach, who was the logical next Nats coach, and his successor seemingly followed in his footsteps to keep the franchise great. The GM seemed to know all the right moves to stave off the ravages of the salary cap. We had (and have) a sort-of quasi SSS with the best practice facility in the league. We had international recognition (which we still do as reputations live on after the fall.)

Then everything fell apart. In 2000 the team played awful, the GM and coach were worse, and we lost the practice facility. In 2001 we lost much of the core of the team to the cap and panic and now after 02 we haven't sniffed the playoffs in three years.

LA didn't take our crown in 2000 though. It looked like it was passing to Chicago. Sportswriters kept saying that Bradley and Wilt were the class of the league. They did win the USOC that year but lost the bigger title, the MLS Cup. But they never won any international recognition, starting with the CCC, and they never won the supporters shield. IMO the Fire's decline can be traced to their inability to get their SSS near O'hare built due to a lack of political backing. This lead to them searching for a place to play as Soldier Field was rebuilt- weather they wanted it rebuilt was not important to the powers that be-and this finally lead them to exile in Naperville, a second class facility in every way. Eventually they will again become second class tenants at Soldier Field, but but Bradley will be gone and with him the continuity that the Fire were so close to attaining.

So the Fire's reign was short-lived, just a year. LA moved into the lead position last year, symbolically beating Chicago in the MLS Cup playoffs and in the USOC. Still they didn't have the crown totally intact as the e-Quakes won MLS Cup last year and looked like a young, lively team. the end of the current season saw the Quakes drop off though as they didn't have the vision needed to stay on top. maybe they'll come back next year, but to me it looks like they have several holes opening up even if LD stays. They look like KC in 2000 to me.


Which gets us back to our beloved United. Do we have what it takes in players and the front office to really challenge LA? We've talked a lot on this board about needed player changes, but what about the management? Can they get us a real SSS? A real practice facility? Do they really understand the salary cap and the Superdraft? I have my doubts as there were several bad moves this year but I'll keep an open mind for this winter (do I have a choice?) I think what Hudson and Kaspar do THIS winter will have repercussions for several more years just like we are still feeling the effects of hiring Rongen in the winter of 98 and trading away Goos and Llamosa et al in the winter of 00.

To be successful in this league- really successful- requires a stability of vision along with political acumen that we haven't had since Arena was working with Payne. Without those qualities we'll either be a) bottom feeders like we are now, b) playoff contenders like Dallas or Colorado with no real prospects of dominance as they have no real vision or c) one year suprises like KC, and probably SJ and NE.

I would say that the Fire's decline wasn't due to not getting their own stadium but a team that has been decimated by injury, moreso than any other team over the last 2 seasons. They have 5 guys alone recovering from ACL tears. Their decline as a franchise in whole is still debatable. Their new lease at Soldeir Field is suppose to be greatly improved than their last one giving them more reveue from concessions, parking and suites than DCU gets from RFK.

As for DC, I am always doubtful about the SSS until there is a press conference with all parties in attendance that has drawings, financing and permits in place and ground ready to be broken. I see it happening once AEG decides to focus on it for DC. I think right now their SSS priority is on NY with the Harrison site vote coming up in the NJ Senate. After that I would think that DC would be next up for a focused effort on geting an SSS up and running with Chicago being a distant third because of their better lease arrangements at SF and there is an initial 3 year lease IIRC. DC has a very good practice facility at the RFK Auxiliary fields. The big issue is they aren't co-located with the rest of the organization but this isn't a necessary requirement, but a nice thing to have. As for the team itself, I have very little faith in Kasper as a talent evaluator or personnel man. He hs done little in the past to embody trust in this area but maybe he can get better. I have some faith in Hudson but only when it comes to veteran players, the good thing is that's what this team needs. The bad thing is he may go after the wrong ones. What I don't see is a grand vision from any of these guys that will help make DCU competitive for a long time. To do that you need a stable core of players with a good mix of young guys and some vets that come in and fill in the puzzle. Arena and Payne were able to do that, under Rongen we got really young and DCU may have be guilty of not being patient enough to let the young players come into their own. The trick is to add experience without going over board and dropping the youth all together. Then all you do is get old and your team become unrecognizable season to season because of all the changes.

I'm not sure we have the guys that have the ability to have a vision and chart the path towards it.

[Claymore]

I think as long as the league maintains a single entity model, you're going to see individual clubs rise and fall in relatively short cycles. It's a money game.

[shawn12011]

Originally posted by ursula
one year suprises like KC, and probably SJ and NE.

One thing to note about KC, SJ and NE. SJ and NE were given gifts to turn them around so quickly (Donovan, Ralston, Llamosa, Agoos) and KC caught "lighting in a bottle" with Miklos Molnar to work as a target forward in Gansler's defense first scheme as New England did this year to an extent with Taylor Twellman.

[owendylan]

Originally posted by shawn12011


One thing to note about KC, SJ and NE. SJ and NE were given gifts to turn them around so quickly (Donovan, Ralston, Llamosa, Agoos)

I will give you Donovan as a gift, but them getting Agoos was a good move for them and something that backfired on DC. It wasn't a gift. As for Llamosa an Ralston it's hard to call them a gift when NE played by the rules the league setup for the dispersal draft. They also got Chacon, who barely played, and Diallo who they then shipped out for Serna who played in only a handful of games. With their "gift" players, NE was on its way to another diappointing season before they changed coaches. Even then it took an amazing late season run to get into the playoffs which they continued onto the Cup game. Why wasn't Twellman a gift? I would think that getting the 2nd leading scorer in the league a gift. Hell LA got a gift in Ruiz since he was a replacement for Vanney. NY has been given so many gifts it's always Christmas in the Big Apple but they haven't been able to do anything with them. I think DC got a gift in '96 when we were able to get Moreno. It takes more than just getting good players to form a championship caliber team. It takes good coaching, scouting, man management skills, and a solid organization.

[stopper4]

A new coach.

One who realizes that this team is much more than 1 or 2 players away from MLS dominance. (Like LA before Ruiz), and was willing to write off the 02 and use it to see if Olsen, Etch, and Moreno still had it and to bring in and develop younger players. With the players available in the dispersal draft and college draft, ALL the pieces were available.

It's not to late for DC even now, but Hudson is never going to accept having to start over.

MLS isn't about how far your 3 foreign allocation can take you anymore. Despite what Ray has used as an excuse all year, your max salary types don't necessarily have to be all-stars for your team to be a success. That don't necessarily even have to be on the field. (see New England)

So even if Hudson goes out there and signs a Ginola or a Gazza, what does that really do for you? Improves your offense signifigantly in a couple areas, kills you defensively, denies experience to younger players, and leaves you much worse off when your mercenaries leave in a year or two when they realize that the league isn't a holiday.

But even if he does something like jettisoning Moreno and Etch and picking up a Nunez, you're still an year or two away while Convey and Mapp develop into solid starters and you develop some depth.

[shawn12011]

Originally posted by owendylan


I will give you Donovan as a gift, but them getting Agoos was a good move for them and something that backfired on DC. It wasn't a gift. As for Llamosa an Ralston it's hard to call them a gift when NE played by the rules the league setup for the dispersal draft. They also got Chacon, who barely played, and Diallo who they then shipped out for Serna who played in only a handful of games. With their "gift" players, NE was on its way to another diappointing season before they changed coaches. Even then it took an amazing late season run to get into the playoffs which they continued onto the Cup game. Why wasn't Twellman a gift? I would think that getting the 2nd leading scorer in the league a gift. Hell LA got a gift in Ruiz since he was a replacement for Vanney. NY has been given so many gifts it's always Christmas in the Big Apple but they haven't been able to do anything with them. I think DC got a gift in '96 when we were able to get Moreno. It takes more than just getting good players to form a championship caliber team. It takes good coaching, scouting, man management skills, and a solid organization.

First off I am stating that the one hit wonders KC, SJ, NE all had plenty of help. Llamosa and Ralston were gifts, through the dispersal draft but gifts none the less. Please tell me that if Tampa Bay and Miami were still around New England would have been playing yesterday. They would have still had Twellman, who by the way is not a gift in my book, because he was a draft pick based on New England's record the year before. However they probably would not have made the playoffs without Llamosa and Ralston or Adin Brown for that matter. Adin cannot be considered a gift since he was availible on waivers to any team who wanted him.

Agoos was a gift, from DC United, not the league based on DC United's salary cap issues. I never said all these gifts came from Mr. Garber's office. If Gansler or Yallop were such brilliant coaches why didn't KC meet San Jose in the finals this year? As Skip said to start this thread, LA has been consistant. New England as everyone was wondering after the dispersal draft took most of the year for their All-Star team to begin to be able to work together. San Jose fell off this year and KC has not been the team it was during 2000 without Molnar up front. KC eeked into the playoffs (8th seed). They were a poor team most of the year. Heck they needed an lousy referee (see Noel Kennedy) to beat DC at RFK this year.

Now I am not saying that one or two players will bring DC United back to where it was. I am however saying that one or two players can get you to or even win you a finals in this league. You do need a good plan and you need to stick to it to sustain dominance over time in this league but with only 1 MLS title and 3 trophies, I believe, LA cannot be called a dynasty. More like the Buffalo Bills with a guy who was able to kick straight for one kick.

[weasel]

Move the team to NY.

[shawn12011]

Originally posted by weasel
Move the team to NY.

BITE YOUR TOUNGUE!!

[doctorjim]

Given the structure of MLS, it will be increasingly difficult for one team to dominate over several years. The draft and the salary cap combined with the league's clear intent to help the bottom teams, almost regardless of, or outside, the rules make dynasties unlikely.

Second, unlike the Arena era, most teams now have competent coaches who understand MLS and American players. The arrival of Nicol in New England and now Bradley in New York has wiped out what were several easy wins for other teams, including DC.

So, we need to adjust expectations. DC as the Man U of American soccer is not very likely under current conditions.

Beyond that, I share the concerns about Kasper and Hudson. I am not sure, in particular, that Hudson grasps the realities of MLS or understands the strengths and weaknesses of American players. Hudson talks (does he ever) as if he were coaching in Europe where clubs can buy players to fill holes. And he seems to have little or no ability to evaluate potential or interest in helping young players realize their potential.

[Ricky_DCU]

Originally posted by stopper4

But even if he does something like jettisoning Moreno and Etch and picking up a Nunez, you're still an year or two away while Convey and Mapp develop into solid starters and you develop some depth.

I think Convey is as solid of a starter as this team has, along with Olsen, Rimando, and Reyes.

[owendylan]

Originally posted by shawn12011


First off I am stating that the one hit wonders KC, SJ, NE all had plenty of help. Llamosa and Ralston were gifts, through the dispersal draft but gifts none the less. Please tell me that if Tampa Bay and Miami were still around New England would have been playing yesterday.

This point is irrelevant because they did contract Miami and TB. Do you think they contracted these two teams just to make NE and NY better? So was DC gifted Rimando and Hudson because of this? Every team in the league was "gifted" players due to contraction.

If Gansler or Yallop were such brilliant coaches why didn't KC meet San Jose in the finals this year? As Skip said to start this thread, LA has been consistant. New England as everyone was wondering after the dispersal draft took most of the year for their All-Star team to begin to be able to work together.

Because KC and SJ lost in the play-offs. KC didn't have the talent and SJ basically stood pat frmo the season before. As for NE. What All Star team? Chacon barely played, same with Serna because of injury. When they had Diallo he wasn't scoring up a storm either. Before the coaching team this All-star team was fighting to not be bottom of the table. They had 2 legit All-stars from the Dispersal Draft on the field for most of the year, Ralston and Llamosa and Llamosa was out alot due to injury and USMNT callups, so it was really just Ralston. Twellman was an unknown, dissed by our own coach as nothing special. Brown wasn't starting and didn't get the job until Sommer got hurt.

Now I am not saying that one or two players will bring DC United back to where it was. I am however saying that one or two players can get you to or even win you a finals in this league. You do need a good plan and you need to stick to it to sustain dominance over time in this league but with only 1 MLS title and 3 trophies, I believe, LA cannot be called a dynasty. More like the Buffalo Bills with a guy who was able to kick straight for one kick.

1 or 2 players will get you to the final if you have the other pieces all ready in place and have a coach that can put it all together. NE eventually had that but it took a real coach, Nicol, to figure it out. No LA cannot be called a dynasty, but because of their consistency and the fact that they are always in the running to play for trophies, they can be called the class organization of the league. Players want to go where they are treated well and have a chance to win stuff. For 7 years LA has been as good a place as any and better than most for this.

[ignatz]

The luck factor seems huge in MLS compared to other sports because of the comparatively small rostser. A serious injury or two, a few games missed because of national team call-ups, and the wheels can come off in a hurry. Just think of what a 23 player roster would mean compared to 18.

Speaking of luck, or a break, or brilliant foresight, whatever you want to call it, don't forget the Roy Lassiter factor in 98 and 99. What did he have, about 18 goals? We let him go (or the league told us to let him go) for Chris Albright. Bye-Bye 18 goals.

Essentially, Lassiter was free. DCU called up Steve Rammel from the Washington Mustangs, playing essentially semi-pro, eventually traded him to Colorado, I think it was, for Roy Wegerle, and then traded Wegerle straight up for Lassiter.

Now that's a move I'd like to see Kasper do once or twice.

[MarioKempes]

Etcheverry and/or Moreno will have to take a pay cut to free some money up. They are no longer performing at their salary levels.

With a few more good players and some injury luck, DCU should be fine next year.

[JoeW]

Chicago is a class operation (at least they were until Bradley goes). Wilt is a great GM, the Barnburners are a good act, they have made good player acquisitions and developed some tremendous Americans (especially from guys other teams gave up on--Armas, Thornton, CJ Brown).

Chicago hasn't done more b/c (a) injuries (especially when Nowak goes out and Wolff can't finish a season) so they share a similar problem with DCU lately---having to play teams while only being able to put $1.2M on the field (when everyone else gets $1.5 or $1.7m roster cap) and (b) the setbacks on the Podbrozny and Kosecki retirements. They assumed they'd be able to replace them--and the league told them otherwise. Chicago (like United) just hasn't had the benefit of many allocations.

Now, as to the thread, what will it take for us to become the franchise standard of gold in MLS once again?
1. Our max. salary players become guys who are among the top 2-3 players at their respective positions in MLS. One of those max salary players is a finisher. Another is a creative midfielder. A third is either a holding mid or a central defender.
2. Some great "value" emerges. That means some youngsters or cheap South Americans demonstrate class while making P-40 money or at least less than $70K per year.
3. Confident Arrogance. The kind of attitude that has you believing that no matter what the score, you will always find a way to win. No matter who you're playing, you believe you OWN them. And that comes by beating people repeatedly. So we can't become the flagship until we have a season or two of kicking some serious butt and owning the league (which no team did this year).
4. Some international results. Let's face it--DCU is known in Europe and South American b/c we've done some things internationally against some decent clubs that other MLS teams haven't (in fact, other than LA's advance against a weak field, no MLS clubs can point to much in competition outside of the USA).

[RomaDcUnitedSaoPaulo]

luck. patience. better refs. skill

[sormun]

Here is my opinion on this important issue:
First,keep the defense the same or get a comparable player for Pope.Things can become complicated,hairy if, Nelsen lives.
Secondly, the management needs to open their eyes "wide" before signing any SI.It is crucial to sign high performance SI players.I disagree LA would have won the MLS cup without Ruiz.They were lucky to get a good finisher, playing in a league, were there are no professional sweepers! That's all !!
Third, the coach need to work with the team for a long period of time. He needs to built the team to the point were they " speak fluent soccer", without
"accent" or interuptions.A point were, the fans will be able to see an easyness in passing the ball and bringing it to the oponent's penalty area.Also,I want to see elaborated combinations among the mid and the strikers, taking advantage of the defense weakness of the oponent or explointing the qualities of our strikers.( NE as an example)
I would like to see a highly organised team that can suffocate the oponent as soon as the other team has the ball, forcing midfield turnovers.I want to see a team running a lot on the field, capable to surprise the oponents on contras in any given time.
I want to see them playing modern,aggresive soccer.The hell with midfield "primadonas" that cannot controle the ball and youngsters that cannot find the net!! Sorry, I got carried away !!

I have "great expectations" when it comes to defense and international players, however, I will be waching the coach's performance in building the team. Guys, you allready know, ya will hear from me in this matter !!

[shawn12011]

Originally posted by owendylan
Originally posted by shawn12011
[B]



This point is irrelevant because they did contract Miami and TB. Do you think they contracted these two teams just to make NE and NY better? So was DC gifted Rimando and Hudson because of this? Every team in the league was "gifted" players due to contraction.



Because KC and SJ lost in the play-offs. KC didn't have the talent and SJ basically stood pat from the season before. As for NE. What All Star team? Chacon barely played, same with Serna because of injury. When they had Diallo he wasn't scoring up a storm either. Before the coaching team this All-star team was fighting to not be bottom of the table. They had 2 legit All-stars from the Dispersal Draft on the field for most of the year, Ralston and Llamosa and Llamosa was out alot due to injury and USMNT callups, so it was really just Ralston. Twellman was an unknown, dissed by our own coach as nothing special. Brown wasn't starting and didn't get the job until Sommer got hurt.



1 or 2 players will get you to the final if you have the other pieces all ready in place and have a coach that can put it all together. NE eventually had that but it took a real coach, Nicol, to figure it out. No LA cannot be called a dynasty, but because of their consistency and the fact that they are always in the running to play for trophies, they can be called the class organization of the league. Players want to go where they are treated well and have a chance to win stuff. For 7 years LA has been as good a place as any and better than most for this.

- The obvious truth is that without their off season pickups from Miami (Mamadou Diallo, Alex Pineda Chacon, Carlos Llamosa, Leo Cullen, and Jim Rooney) even Sir Alex Ferguson would not have taken New England to the title game. Steve Nichol did a good job picking up the pieces that Clavijo left. I count Diallo among those because he was traded for, Hernandez and Kamler who were both big parts of New Englands late season run. Chacon was a late ball holding sub during that run, allowing them to protect leads. You know those things that DC seem to be unable to do. The term All-Star team is paraphrased from MLSNet's preview. To quote exactly "No team seems better equipped for the 2002 MLS Season than the New England Revolution, who stocked their roster with the last two Budweiser Scoring Champions, a regular U.S. National Team defender and a midfielder that has played more minutes than any other player in League history."

- As for Twellman didn't you ask "Why wasn't Twellman a gift?" Now you want to call him "Twellman was an unknown, dissed by our own coach as nothing special." Which is it?

- I dislike many of the personalities in LA, staff and players but I never said that they weren't class. Players however are not "beating a path to LA's door" tp play for them however. El Matador, Campos and Hermosillo all were running out of LA as fast as their feet could take them. Mathis does not make longing sounds about wanting to return to LA. LA draws ex-UCLA Sigi players. MOst of the rest would just a content playing elsewhere. Obviously not today, before you go there, but I don't here rumors of European players clamouring to play in LA

Now I am willing to agree to disagree but don't simply toss my points aside, " This point is irrelevant" just because you don't agree with them.

:)

[DigitalTron]

Here's what I think DC United needs:

1) A pure finisher. Someone who actually puts the ball in the back of the net.

2) A second finisher. We need 3 quality forwards to compete in MLS today, and if we consider Santino one, that leaves two other spots open. I'm not convinced about Ali Curtis yet, but he might be an acceptable 4th forward.

3) A Hmid. Hudson plays an attacking 352 that uses twin Dmids in the center, but at least one of them needs to be a true Holding mid and start the attack from the back. McKinley showed good ability to do this, but we cannot count on him there for an entire season because of his age/injuries, cards, and speed.

4) A midfielder. If Convey is in the center, then they need a left winger, if Convey is on the left wing, then they need a central midfielder. Personally I hope Convey's in the middle. Mapp will play next season, but he's still learning and we cannot depend upon him as as tarter next season.

5. Back up defenders. No offense to Namoff, Lazo, Chino or McKinley, but none of them is really a back line player. McKinley is the closest, but he cannot play it in a 352. I see these defenders coming via the draft. If we keep Nelsen, Prideaux, Pope and Reyes I think we can play any 3 of those 4 along the back line with comfort and use midfielders as depth, but I'd feel better if we had some true back up defenders and we didn't have to shift too many people around when someone gets injured or carded, and it's inevitable.

I think one of the forward finishers and one midfielder will likely be SI's.

-Tron