(NFR): France rejects the EU Constitution

[blackjack]

En Francais -- http://www.lemonde.fr/

And in English -- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4592243.stm

I'd post this in the Politics/Current Events forum, but there seem to be very few French posters there. Ganu, Zolta, Nanbawan, and the rest of the French contingent, can you offer some insight as to why this was rejected and what impact it might have on the future of Europe? Thanks.

[gaijin]

I ain't French. But as a Englishman, this will not doubt affect me in some way given our powers have no been exclusively retained to the French. (just kidding.......or am I?)

The reason it was rejected because I think France like ourselves in the UK, are a afraid of change and the negative affects the consitutuion would bring. It will not make seperate countries stronger, it will make all of the EU stronger.

This means, countries will have to sacrifice their own laws for a governing state which has no concept of the country and his traditions and heritage. If the French want to work less than us, fine. But it shouldn't be stuffed down our throats, and all laws will be made in mind for Pole, Czech and Brit alike. We are vastly different, and the EU does not recognise this.

I am in favour of this move. France like many of the stronger EU nations do not want to subdivise power to the likes of Latvia, Estonia and Poland etc.

We in the UK don't vote till next year, and I'm saying no!

What is funny about the consitutuion, is that both left and right hate it alike.

[ilv2]

A lot of the criticism focuses upon the economic ideas put forward by the constitution-- mainly more globalization, competition, and free market facets that come with any sort of union, such as NAFTA, for example. Especially with the crisis of unemployment and faltering markets, people are more concerned about problems at home and getting a job, rather than voting for a treaty that could very well take more jobs away (cheaper labor in Eastern Europe).
On the whole though, this step is problematic not only for France, but also the rest of the EU member nations. With no major security threats in the region, the influence and importance of European states has declined, and the only way I see Europe regaining its former position is by unifying and presenting an economic challenge to the rest of the world. I understand that giving up sovereignity is a major concern, and I myself would be against any sort of stronger UN, but IMO the consolidation of the European Union is the best long-term strategy for the region and the movement towards this goal has taken a significant dent today.
I hate to sound so typically American, but the French have a perverse love of exerting whatever power they have on an issue and playing the devil's advocate. French foreign policy is more complex, of course and I'll be the first to argue that the world needs France, but it has generally been the case with NATO, the UN, etc. This step however, again, minimizes the role it can play in the future and consequently arrests it from engaging in the style of international relations that it loves pursuing.

[blackjack]

It seems that the American economic influence these days is such that the only possible competitor would have to be either a developed China or a unified Europe. I understand that the French and the British are hesitant to give up their sovreignty and to risk outsourcing much of their labor to Eastern Europe. I agree that the negatives outweigh the positives now. But in the interest of developing economic competition for the United States, I think Europe needs to do anything and everything in its power to make sure that it, rather than China, becomes the next economic superpower. If that means biting the bullet and ratifying a document that inflicts some harm now, so be it.

[Nanbawan]

What kind of boat rocks so much at the first unexpected wave...

Don't believe whatever th emedia have to say about, they'r ereproducing the same kind of BS which is written in the French press. French people know how to vote for something they don't really like -I still remember that !-, smacking Chirac is a bonus for those who rejected the Constitution. And if it has something to do with the politicians, it's on a broader perspective than just the government.

There are 20-30 % of the electorate who voted "non" because they usually do on European matter whether they are from the national front, the extreme left or republican/soverainists/bonapartists...The other rejected the draft Constitution for several reasons :too liberal, too market-obsessed, confusing. In fact, you have to agree that wasn't even a Constitution. One of the main problem was also the lack of a reasonable revision opportunity since it needs the unanimity of the 25 member states. The text was lame and there were too many unacceptable points.

I'm already disappointed with what I'm hearing from the political elite, they apparently did not get the message ! They still want us to be good pupils. I even heard some pundits say that France will have to pay (again) for this...What kind of democracy is this ? From people who like so much to give us lectures on it. We did not send ballistic missiles on Brussels iirc :rolleyes: . OK, things won't go as smoothly as planned but hey, c'est la vie.

For those who think French should STFU whatever we do, I'm sorry but this tiny 1 % of the world population does not intend to live like that. What are we supposed to do ? Bend silently ? Anyway, you'll always find people to say that it is arrogance, past glory, bla bla bla...It's handy, it works on every topic regardless of the real causes. I've just witnessed some BBC world reports and I'm amazed how much they fit in what the audience was probably expecting. The man on the street has been thoroughly chosen...

As for China, I don't think that's the ultimate model of developement to follow for us. Sure, there is money to make currently, but sheer business is different from politics even if there are obvious links. I'm not a fortune teller, though I wonder how China will cope with the massive social problem that is coming to them in the mid-term future unless they dramatically change their policy.

Also read (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201580).

[ilv2]

In fact, you have to agree that wasn't even a Constitution. One of the main problem was also the lack of a reasonable revision opportunity since it needs the unanimity of the 25 member states. The text was lame and there were too many unacceptable points.

if the constitution needs to be fixed, then rejection will ultimately fulfill this role. Seems like everyone (with the exception of Chirac) is blasting the document itself. Revision until perfection is obviously needed, and what the EU delivered this round is clearly not suitable (We'll see what the Dutch think).
However, I think believe unification is necessary in Europe for all the reasons listed my previous post, except that the guidelines of this new multilateral body have to solid and reasonable and the french reaction points out that they are everything but.

[Pierre-Henri]

Rationale of yes-men was very simplistic : "say yes because EU is cool".

I've even heard (maybe you remember too, Nabawan) some politicians, including Chirac, say things like : "you don't need to read everything, just trust me, just say yes".

Unfortunately for politicians, the French people (unlike Spanish) were interested by the debate. They read, they talked, they discussed, they argumented. And they went to ballot boxes, in fair numbers.

And we all noticed one major thing : you can't understand this text, whatever kind of education level you've reached. It is utterly undecipherable. How can a political system work properly if no one is able to understand its mechanisms ? I've posted some quotes in another thread :

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201580

For the rest, I completely second our (naturally) stubborn resident Briton. France is facing today a major political crisis. Some are even speaking of pre-revolutionary situation. We all have the feeling that the parisian elite (politicians, journalists, thinkers...) is completely off-side.

And, Ilv2, you're somehow right, France today is not in a situation to say "yes" to anything : unemployment is at it's peak, poverty is rising (we all see that the number of homelesses in the streets has risen, no phony stat can hide what you see with your eyes), and the public debt is reaching 16000 € per citizen.

However, the elitism of french institutions, and therefore the gap between elite and people, is something Americans (and other foreigners) can't really begin to understand. All politicians are in Paris, all of the press is in Paris, all TV networks are in Paris, all book publishers are in Paris, all the best universities are in Paris, all intellectuals, all thinkers, all artists, all writters, all important individuals are in Paris. And when i say "Paris", i mean a few posh quarters in the capital. In fact, France is governed from a few streets in Paris, like Soviet Union was governed from the Kremlin. They all went in the same Colleges (ENA, HEC), they all meet in the same restaurants, they all attend the same conferences, and so on... French elites live like goldfishes in an aquarium, they have absolutely no clue about how the french people live and about how they think.

USA is a big country, and a federation. You have a very diverse intellectual world : a Texan doesn't think like a Bostonian ; Princeton is not Stanford, Yale or Harvard ; some things are decided in Washington, some others in New York or in the new capital, Crawford, Tx ( :) ) ; good newspapers can be find in all major cities... and so on. France, being a centralized nation, has nothing of this.

[gaijin]

Rationale of yes-men was very simplistic : "say yes because EU is cool".

I've even heard (maybe you remember too, Nabawan) some politicians, including Chirac, say things like : "you don't need to read everything, just trust me, just say yes".

Unfortunately for politicians, the French people (unlike Spanish) were interested by the debate. They read, they talked, they discussed, they argumented. And they went to ballot boxes, in fair numbers.


Bingo. They expected apathy amongst the young people and other marginalised and disillusioned voters. They were wrong. People did take an interest in this, and the media got behind it and beamed into everyone's house. This thing grew and grew as the weeks went on. And the government could only scramble for the panic 'yes campaign' button.


And we all noticed one major thing : you can't understand this text, whatever kind of education level you've reached. It is utterly undecipherable. How can a political system work properly if no one is able to understand its mechanisms ? I've posted some quotes in another thread :

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201580


I never read it, but from what I understand, alot of it is indecipherable to those hard-minded enough to want a conisitution in the first place. For me Chirac was pushed into making the people vote on it. I seriously think he knew that those who stood by him at the start, where stabbing him in the back this week.

I don't think he can blame anyone else....The system has been going down hill for a while now, particularly when the members increased, and the French power become less and less powerful.

He was then forced into this pathetic plea bargain, by increasing intensity and coverage of the consitution and then of course, he tried to go with the injured puppy dog look on TV and failed miserably.

[Pierre-Henri]

He was then forced into this pathetic plea bargain, by increasing intensity and coverage of the consitution and then of course, he tried to go with the injured puppy dog look on TV and failed miserably.


http://www.erm.lu/epm/643f0a60.jpg

For this only, it was worth the vote :D . He fancied himself as a new de Gaulle, he will end as a new Zavatta*. "Supermenteur**" is on his way to the door, and possibly to the jail.

* Famous french clown
** "Superliar", the nickname of our revered president:

http://www.sortirdunucleaire.org/fhaine/supermenteur.jpg

[Nanbawan]

I was listening to France Inter today -apparently a stronghold of the new Rebel Alliance - and there was a journalist (from Libération iirc) who reported what happened to him at the socialist party HQ (lib-dems for our anglo-saxon readers) :

They provided the Press with stickers where it was written "Presse"...and "OUI" on it. The journalist said :

_Er, I'm a journalist, I don't have to wear a sticker with "OUI" on it...

_Put it or get out of here !! Was the answer.

The journalist put it covering the "OUI" afterwards... :eek:

The UMP (Chirac's party) and the Socialists are just trying to get their share of the system apparently.

BTW, I fully second Pierre-Henry : France is governed by a bunch of elite people living in the same area, totally sure of being endlessly right. I mean, François Hollande (leader of the lib-dems) has been kicked in the teeth by the polls and the guy shows up on TV saying :

"I understood why the "no" won, it's a vote against Chirac, this is the only reason..."

Wow dude, thanks for explaining us why we voted like we did since we had no idea, we were just waiting for your statement...Oh, and -I don't want to be annoying and all- but didn't you just lose ? Er, I think ballot boxes just landed on your balls...So maybe, you could try to keep it down, at least for some times. But, no, they can't because they know they can't be wrong, it has to be a problem with the voters or something. That says it all.

Results in Paris : 66 % for the "yes", and they all think they're surrounded by a country of ill-educated barbarians who are a danger for the Force...I mean the economic growth. The once romantic city has fallen into the hands of post-modernist bourgeois and executives (who are the only ones who can afford to live there) full of mercy for the ignorant masses, but not too much. Hey ! We mean business here ! Chose your side : on my right, cynicism ; on my left, hypocrisy.

As for my beloved Brittany : hem, I feel like a liberal in the heart of Alabama...The region voted for the "oui" (that's the only one with Paris and the over-seas territories). I can see several main reasons : the Christian electorate in Brittany is the biggest and they usually vote for the establishment and center right or left. The region is quite remote from the main European axis and always try to get closer to EU institutions ; I shall add that this is also the main agricultural good producer in France so they benefited from the EU subsidies.

This said, despite being ironical, I respect the opinion of those who fairly defended the "OUI" vote, it may sound paradoxal, but we somewhat share the same will : a better Europe. Unfortunately, we don't really agree on the means to reach this honorable goal.

One last thing I heard on France Inter radio ( see French links thread, I posted a link to French radios) : some guys were calling a local HQ of the Socialist Party, and the conversation was like :

"_HQ : Yes, local S.P. HQ, what can I do for you ?

_ Guys : ...

_ HQ : Please, tell me, what do you want ?

_ G : ...

_ HQ : Excuse me, I can't hear you, where are you ?

_ G : UP YOUR ASS !!! *bunch of guys shouting*

On a gagné ! On a gagné ! "

Nothing like being a good sport in victory !! :D

[jambon-beurre]

Well, I'm very very disappointed with this result. The text was a compromise between 25 countries and it had perforce a lot of imperfections. I think the result of this will be that we'll vote probably on another treaty in like 10 years which will look like this one, maybe better but not that different. But the "yes", supported by Raffarin (at least we won't hear anymore of this guy), simply couldn't win, I think ... I comfort myself by saying that the "pro-european" people, which represents 80% of the voters, has voted "yes" in majority.

[TheAmerican]

America would like to thank France for screwing up the E.U. Constitution. Now the U.S. can continue its dominance of Europe...J/K :p
No really, if I were French I'd reject that constitution, too. It allows the corporations more freedom to screw the working man over just for the sake of competition. Score 1 for the common man. :)

[sl7vk]

Non! There must be limits to Europe's Free markets, or else France, Briton, and Germany standards of living will freefall, and those of Poland, Latvia, and Slovakia will rise. Every country has the right to look out for its interests.