Glazer/Mutiny Article

[Stan Collins]

x-posted this article here, as it contains some interesting details, both on the Mutiny's revenues, and on ManU's US profile.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7950286/

[Dr. Wankler]

x-posted this article here, as it contains some interesting details, both on the Mutiny's revenues, and on ManU's US profile.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7950286/

Good article save the slightly misleading comparison between the Mutiny and the Rowdies:

"The Mutiny averaged around 13,000 fans for each game in a market where its predecessors, the Tampa Bay Rowdies, achieved sellout crowds at Tampa Stadium during the late 1970s."

Kenn.com gives the Rowdies attendances as 1975=10,728; 1976=16,452; 1977=19,491; 1978=18,124; 1979=28,546; 1980=28,345; 1981=23,162; 1982=18,503; 1983=11,172; 1984=10,993

http://www.kenn.com/sports/soccer/nasl/

And this thing at the end sounds odd:

Here's one more thing for Bay area sports fans to consider: Sales of team jerseys tracked by SportScan Info show that fans in the United States have bought about 2,500 Man U jerseys so far this year -- more than all MLS teams combined, and even outselling baseball's Tampa Bay Devil Rays.

I would think that Man U sold more than 2500 jerseys in the US. But maybe they're just counting "fans" who bought the shirt, and not people who think "Manchester United" is a designer label, which is what 2 people I've met have thought.

[skipshady]

Another "good article but misleading" point:
Man U fans are protesting Glazer's purchase of their team, largely based on his perceived mistreatment of Tampa sports fans.

Do the supporters even know that he was involved with the Mutiny? No, the supporters oppose Glazer's takeover because of the debt he's going to saddle on the club, the lack of transparency and his general apathy about sports. His relationship with Tampa sports fans, MLS or otherwise, is a non-issue.

[monster]

And this thing at the end sounds odd:

Here's one more thing for Bay area sports fans to consider: Sales of team jerseys tracked by SportScan Info show that fans in the United States have bought about 2,500 Man U jerseys so far this year -- more than all MLS teams combined, and even outselling baseball's Tampa Bay Devil Rays.

I would think that Man U sold more than 2500 jerseys in the US. But maybe they're just counting "fans" who bought the shirt, and not people who think "Manchester United" is a designer label, which is what 2 people I've met have thought.

I bet they are counting people who have bought from U.S. sources. So if you order from the club shop overseas, you're counted as a sale over there.

[Stan Collins]

Good article save the slightly misleading comparison between the Mutiny and the Rowdies:

"The Mutiny averaged around 13,000 fans for each game in a market where its predecessors, the Tampa Bay Rowdies, achieved sellout crowds at Tampa Stadium during the late 1970s."

Kenn.com gives the Rowdies attendances as 1975=10,728; 1976=16,452; 1977=19,491; 1978=18,124; 1979=28,546; 1980=28,345; 1981=23,162; 1982=18,503; 1983=11,172; 1984=10,993

http://www.kenn.com/sports/soccer/nasl/

Yep, probably true, but misleading. They probably sold out a few games for Pele or the Soccer Bowl, and then did as bad or worse than the Mutiny for an average league match. And there was no baseball, hockey team back then, and the football team stank something awful.

[AndyMead]

Most MLS teams still play in NFL stadiums. The Mutiny started in and closed old Tampa Stadium in 1998 before moving over to Raymond James Stadium the following season.

This is more or less shoddy writing.

True, "most" teams (MetroStars, Revolution, United, Fire, Rapids, Wizards, Dallas) do, in fact, still play in "NFL Stadiums", but at this time next year, both Dallas and the Fire will be out, and the Rapids should have their stadium well under construction. Furthermore, the Wizards should have reached some sort of arrangement that will guarantee the end of their NFL days.

Frankly, with the exception of the Revs, the clock is ticking on teams still in American Football stadiums.

[Motterman]

Another "good article but misleading" point:
Man U fans are protesting Glazer's purchase of their team, largely based on his perceived mistreatment of Tampa sports fans.

Do the supporters even know that he was involved with the Mutiny? No, the supporters oppose Glazer's takeover because of the debt he's going to saddle on the club, the lack of transparency and his general apathy about sports. His relationship with Tampa sports fans, MLS or otherwise, is a non-issue.

Actually, we referenced his dealings with the Tamps fans in our "99 reasons to distrust Glazer" list:

45. Glazer bought the struggling American football team the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1995 for $192m, after it had notched up a long strong of losses both financial and on the pitch. His first act was to fire the manager.

46. American football is very different to the UK variety, where the fans’ have a passionate love for their club, its heritage and traditions, which is strongly community based and runs down the generations. American football is regarded more as a business which provides entertainment, like the movies, a nice day out for the family.

47. Glazer tried to buy four other American sports franchises before getting the Buccaneers.

48. Glazer goes for the jugular. When he offered to buy the Buccaneers, he promised the Tampa authorities he would go halves on a new stadium with them. After getting control, he backed out of the deal, and gave Tampa two years to build it themselves or he would move the team to a city that would.

49. Tampa caved in, and city taxpayers are still paying a half-cent sales tax to fund the stadium’s construction. Ex-Tampa mayor Bill Poe estimates that this has cost the City some $400 million in all.

50. Soon after buying the Buccaneers, Glazer arranged for his own restaurant company Houlihan’s to buy the naming rights for the team’s new stadium, at a cost of $10m, despite the firm having just two restaurants in Florida, and none in Tampa Bay itself.

51. After completing the building of the new stadium, Glazer so upset some Tampa Buccaneers fans that in 1999 civil court action was pursued by a group of longstanding Buccaneers season ticket holders who felt they'd been unfairly downgraded to inferior seats by the move to the new stadium.

52. Glazer’s response was for the club to counter-sue the fans for defamation. The case was settled out-of-court and as part of the agreement, the dissenting fans were offered a choice of new seats.

53. Instances like those prompted the local Tampa Bay Tribune to accuse Glazer of using the city as his "personal urinal".

54. Much is made of the fact that the Buccaneers won a Super Bowl championship in 2003. But the team had won nothing before that and have won nothing since and is now back to its reputation as a loser team.

55. Glazer’s single trophy pales in comparison with the achievements of United under the 19-year tenure of Sir Alex Ferguson and the present regime.

56. Some Bucs fans point to Glazer’s tendency to interfere with matters better handled by the management staff. Tampa Bay's former head coach, Tony Dungy, was by every measure a success with the Bucs, yet he was constantly hounded and harassed by the Glazers to fire his offensive assistant coaches (David Shula and Les Steckel). Why should we believe their promises not to interfere with football matters at Manchester United?

57. Less than two years after winning the Super Bowl the Glazer family has directed its team's own downfall through a series of dubious decisions that will certainly concern United supporters. The successful and popular general manager Rich McKay was replaced by Bruce Allen of the Oakland Raiders and many fan favourites on the field were allowed to leave in favour of ageing veterans. The results, or lack of them, have annoyed some fans, who admit United might find themselves in a similarly alarming position if Glazer becomes their new owner.

58. "I'd be worried if I was a Manchester United fan because I think his interest is in business rather than the sport itself," said the Buccaneers fan and Tampa native Jim Freeman. "His interest is in winning also, but mainly because it increases the worth of the business. They [the Glazers] are into the pride of ownership and the involvement you have as an NFL owner, which is a very exclusive club. It's a power thing. As far as soccer goes I don't think they're any more interested in Manchester United than I am."" (Source: Guardian)

59. The Glazers have raised ticket prices EVERY year since they have owned the Tamp Bay Buccaneers. Bucs ticket prices, if you include every element of the pricing structure, are now among the highest in the NFL. Their ‘club seats’ season ticket required buyers to commit to TEN years of ownership and anyone who withdraws before the period is up is liable to pay a penalty.

60. Prices of everything across the board at the Raymond James stadium have also gone through the roof – including concessions such as parking, food, drink and other merchandise.

61. The Buccaneers players have had to travel 80 miles to a training ground because their existing Tampa training facilities were infested with rats.

62. Work has started on a new training centre, the defunct Tampa Bay Center which closed in 2002 and was purchased later that year by First Allied Corp., a real estate concern headed by Bucs owner Malcolm Glazer, for $22.8 million in late 2002. True to form, the Bucs are entitled to $12 million in local sales tax revenue for construction of the facility. The City continues to pay the bills for their privately-owned and profitable team.

Also, SU has written to the NFL about Glazer's connections to organized gambling, which is against NFL policy.... (Old Trafford is actually designated as a casino because of all the betting booths at the ground)

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=200833

Our understanding of NFL regulations is that they prohibit NFL franchise

owners from any commercial or promotional activities in gaming or

gambling, or association with organizations that operate in these

fields. There are four areas of concern here.

*1. Gambling at Old Trafford*

MUPLC has a long-standing commercial relationship with Ladbrokes, the

bookmaking subsidiary of Hilton Group plc. Ladbrokes is indeed one of

MUFC’s premier corporate sponsors. One of the most visible

manifestations of this relationship is that Ladbrokes operates

bookmaking stalls in most of the concession areas at the Old Trafford

stadium owned by MUPLC. While UK law does set age restrictions on

betting, these stalls are nonetheless in areas of the stadium frequented

by supporters of all ages.

*2. Online gambling and **Manchester** United*

The extent of MUPLC’s relationship with Ladbrokes also extends to MUFC’s

Internet site – www.manutd.com (http://www.manutd.com/) <http://www.manutd.com/>. Indeed in the

run up to the recent F.A. Cup Final, the official Manchester United

website was offering a ‘splash’ introduction page offering visitors the

chance to bet on the game via Ladbrokes. All users, /including

children/, needed to click through this wagering offer page in order to

access the main content.

*3. The FA Premier League, BSkyB and SkyBet*

As part of its broadcasting rights agreement with British Sky

Broadcasting (BSkyB), the FA Premier League (of which Manchester United

is a member) allows and indirectly benefits from an interactive

on-screen digital television betting service known as SkyBet. This has a

potentially far greater reach that Manchester United’s agreements with

Ladbrokes as it involves the posting of odds during live transmissions

of sporting events and offers the ability to place a bet at the push of

a button via a user’s remote control handset. SkyBet has the potential

to reach in excess of three million TV viewers in the UK.

Furthermore, we note that SkyBet is a subsidiary of BSkyB, meaning that

the largest contributor to MUPLC’s income is, in effect, a bookmaker.

*4. **Manchester** United **PLC** and **Las Vegas** Sands*

Earlier this year, Manchester United entered into an agreement with the

US gambling operation Las Vegas Sands to bid to build a ‘super casino’

adjacent to the Old Trafford stadium. This bid is unlikely to succeed –

the nearby town of Blackpool is considered favorite for the only

franchise being made available at this time by the UK government – but

does appear to signal the two companies’ intentions as more such

franchises are made available in the future.

[Stan Collins]

Glazer, of course, has made his move on ManU, and is as locked into it as you are. (He can't sell the club at the moment for what he bought it for, so he'll need to hold on).

Those gambling concerns, which seem to be a couple steps removed from the NFL's real concern of gambling on gridiron, might at most succeed only in forcing Glazer to sell the NFL club.

Of course, that might still suit ManU interests, seeing as he might then use the NFL sale money to pay off the debt.

[Stan Collins]

I bet they are counting people who have bought from U.S. sources. So if you order from the club shop overseas, you're counted as a sale over there. In today's news thread, the sources of that firm's calculations were listed, and the vast majority of the outlets we would associate with soccer shirt sales are notably left out, so I think it's safe to say they miss more than they capture.

[skipshady]

Actually, we referenced his dealings with the Tamps fans in our "99 reasons to distrust Glazer" list:Understood, but I still think the writer is misleading the readers a bit when he says "largely", which seems to imply that Glazer's treatment of Tampa sports fans is a driving factor in the backlash.

Man U supporters would have a problem with Glazer even if he hadn't backed out of the Mutiny deal or whatever else he'd done in the Bay.

[StillerFan]

46. American football is very different to the UK variety, where the fans’ have a passionate love for their club, its heritage and traditions, which is strongly community based and runs down the generations. American football is regarded more as a business which provides entertainment, like the movies, a nice day out for the family.


I can't agree with this. I grew up in Western Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh Steeler country. I can assure you, folks are VERY passionate about their club, it's heritage, and it's traditions. Across the border in Ohio, the Cleveland Browns also elicit a ton of passions. Most NFL fans are every bit as passionate about there 'football' teams as the UK variety.

:)

[ED Fajardo]

StillerFan, beleive it. As passionate as Steeler and Browns fans are about their team, passions run a few levels above in England-or Spain and Itay, for that matter. Here in the good ol' USA, if the the local pro football team falters, fans can always root for the local baseball or basketball or hockey team to pick up some of the slack (unless one lives in Gren Bay or Chicago). In Europe, fans tend to live or die by their soccer team, even if there is a local basketball team they could hang their hats on. When I was living in Germany, some of my soccer teammates thought nothing of hopping on a plane and flying to England or Spain to watch a game. And these weren't wealthy guys, either. It's not thet they're better fans, they just take their sport alot kore seriously. As for me, nothing will ever take away the hurt of the immaculate reception. The Raiders were robbed and Frenchy Fuqua knows it!

[Cannon]

StillerFan, beleive it. As passionate as Steeler and Browns fans are about their team, passions run a few levels above in England-or Spain and Itay, for that matter. Here in the good ol' USA, if the the local pro football team falters, fans can always root for the local baseball or basketball or hockey team to pick up some of the slack (unless one lives in Gren Bay or Chicago). In Europe, fans tend to live or die by their soccer team, even if there is a local basketball team they could hang their hats on. When I was living in Germany, some of my soccer teammates thought nothing of hopping on a plane and flying to England or Spain to watch a game. And these weren't wealthy guys, either. It's not thet they're better fans, they just take their sport alot kore seriously. As for me, nothing will ever take away the hurt of the immaculate reception. The Raiders were robbed and Frenchy Fuqua knows it!

Total bs.

American football fans are just as serious about their teams as any football fans in europe. How is catching a flight from Germany to England to watch a game different than when people here fly across the country or drive for a day or two to get to a NFL game? Oh yeah, other than the distances are usually much greater here. :rolleyes:

The only real difference is that we don't have the tradition of huge coordinated fan displays or singing at NFL games. This is a cultural difference and not a measure of fan passion for their teams. If you don't think fans live or die by their NFL teams, you should have seen me after the Superbowl or the previous NFC championship games for that matter.

[superdave]

The difference is, Man City and ManU fans live and work with each other. But as great as the Browns-Steelers rivalry is, in its own way, it lacks that.

You're really better off comparing soccer rivalries to the great college rivalries, like Auburn-Alabama in football, or Duke-Carolina in basketball.

[NattyBo]

46. American football is very different to the UK variety, where the fans’ have a passionate love for their club, its heritage and traditions, which is strongly community based and runs down the generations. American football is regarded more as a business which provides entertainment, like the movies, a nice day out for the family.

BS. My family now has 4 generations of Redskins fans, and trust me, most Redskins fans I know dont treat it like a nice day out with the family. With only 16 games, losses and wins in the NFL mean much much more than a typical EPL game. Statements like that are just a part of what turns away the average sports fan in the States. You dont need to degrade American Football to promote Soccer. They're both fantastic sports.

54. Much is made of the fact that the Buccaneers won a Super Bowl championship in 2003. But the team had won nothing before that and have won nothing since and is now back to its reputation as a loser team.


:rolleyes: Its VERY hard to repeat in the NFL, and the Bucs are in a tough division these days, but they're hardly back to being called the Sucannears of days past.

55. Glazer’s single trophy pales in comparison with the achievements of United under the 19-year tenure of Sir Alex Ferguson and the present regime.

This might be an impressive "reason" if the NFL did not have an extensive parity structure and hard salary cap, unlike the EPL, where generally, teams with money can buy the best players and therefore win championships. Obviously, buying great players does not guarantee a championship, but it makes it a far sight easier. In the NFL, I feel it is much, much harder. First, there is the playoff system. Mostly, though, is the fact that you have to assemble the most astute technical staff in the league, who will make the right personnel decisions and have good scouting systems.

60. Prices of everything across the board at the Raymond James stadium have also gone through the roof – including concessions such as parking, food, drink and other merchandise.


Welcome to every NFL stadium.


Look, I dont like Glazer, but some of those "facts" are ignorant and dumb.

[ED Fajardo]

Cannon, you may disagree with me, fine. But what I said is not b.s. I'm originally form California, a die hard Raiders fan, and have spend a good part of the last 15 years living overseas on Uncle sam's dime (not military); so I've been lucky enough to see fan support for teams on both sides of the pond and elsewhere. I'm currently living in Redskins country (though I'll be heading back o'seas next month) where passions and loyalty for the 'skins runs deep. That said, the passion and support is not the same. Perhaps fan support for college football and basketball comes closest to describing it. Let's put it this way: if the owner of a major Euro soccer team tried to pull what Art Modell or Robert Irsay or Al Davis did by moving their teams, the fans of those teams would have hunted them down like dogs. And I'm not being fascitious(spl?) when I say that. I don't know if you've spend any significant time living overeseas, if not, then this is kind of a waste of time since you only have been exposed to part of the issue. I really like the stadium the Steelers play in, though, it's a real Euro-type stadium.

[NattyBo]

Just because American Football fans dont sing and do choreo/etc, doesnt mean they're less passionate or less supportive of their team. Really, American Football is not conducive to either type of support anyway.

And FYI, several NFL teams, esp. the Redskins, 90,000+ people DO sing. Ever heard "Hail to the Redskins"?

[writered21]

Just because American Football fans dont sing and do choreo/etc, doesnt mean they're less passionate or less supportive of their team. Really, American Football is not conducive to either type of support anyway.

And FYI, several NFL teams, esp. the Redskins, 90,000+ people DO sing. Ever heard "Hail to the Redskins"?

Not since ... when did Snyder take over?

[NattyBo]

Not since ... when did Snyder take over?

Quiet, you! :)