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jacathcart
18 May 2005, 08:30 PM
Question sent to me by close personal relative in reference to a women's rec (premiere division) game:

"Can you give a player/coach a card without them being present? We are having a huge issue w/ the referee we had this weekend. He didn't call a slide tackle in the box for us near the end of the game, and [Coach]along with some other players, went kinda berserk (don't think I would've called it myself). Anyway, after the game he called over [Coach] to tell him he needs to keep our team calm. BTW, this is a ref who will yell at you if you cry out 'Ref!' as you get battered to the ground. I told everyone to keep their mouths shut, no one ever listens to me. Anyway, [Coach] and our keeper were having a heated discussion w/ him at the end of the game on the other side of the field where I couldn't hear. Our keeper came back over after a couple minutes and didn't mention anything. Then [Coach] spent another 10 minutes bitching at the guy. To which I said, wow, he's going to get himself a red card after the game is over.

After the game, we get an email from the league about needing a write up b/c of our card activity in the game. The ref reported 3 yellow cards and a "send off" (I guess that means red card?). Two of the yellows were in the game, one warranted, the other pretty lame. But the ref never showed a card to our goalie and [Coach] claims he didn't show a card to him either. Now, I believe that our goalie never got carded, because she would have come back to our sideline complaining about it. She didn't say a word, and now says she never got a card. I think she's right. With [Coach], who knows. [Coach] says the ref claims he showed them the cards (though I always take {Coach's]explanations with a grain of salt). So my question is, can you report carding someone if they were never notified of the card when it occured? I can understand if someone stormed off the field before the ref could pull out the card, but he would still have to pull it, correct? Then at least the team would see the infraction. What's your take, oh referee guru?"

My response was that (1) Under FIFA no card is shown to coach altho he is verbally notified that he is dismissed; (2) IMHO a player or coach who is present to be notified must be carded or notified verbally in the case of a coach in order for there to be a caution or sendoff - otherwise the referee's course of action is a written report to the league; (3) Ref's authority continues after the whistle while folks are at or ont he pitch; (4) No stealth cards permitted; and (5) real problem here - and her teams's best defense at the disciplinary committee meeting - is that the ref was a doofus for not just picking up his gear and clearing the field. If he believes the coach needs a zinger he can write to the league or the ref assignor to communicate his message. Once the ref starts the conversation when he has the option to leave (unlike when the game is underway) he is in a very poor position to complain that the conversation crosses the line to dissent - especially when he allows the conveersation to go on for another 10 minutes. He basically has invited what he got unless the coach called him a freaking dipwad or something worse.

Some of the best advice I ever got was no matter how much you would like to express your expertise and superior understanding of the laws by going over and conducting an al fresco recert clinic on the coach or player after the game DON'T DO IT! Pack your bag and leave!

Jim

HoldenMan
18 May 2005, 09:16 PM
1) Correct, although some US competitions allow for match officials and even spectators to be carded

2) Yes. However, if a player is not present - ie they storm off after committing a foul, then the referee shows the card to the captain but explaining it's for the other player.

3) Referee can not issue cards after the final whistle according to FIFA - it's all misconduct reports

4) As before, there must be a card displayed or at least a verbalisation.

5) Good luck getting off - all those points should help.

brhsoccer14
18 May 2005, 11:38 PM
I think you are right holden except as of July 1st, a referee can give cards after the final whistle until he leaves the FOP. I am pretty sure someone will have to back me up on that.

ref47
19 May 2005, 08:01 AM
http://dps.twiihosting.net/USSF/doc/content/doc_6_250.pdf
ussf says there are 3 clarifications in effect now. included is that ref can issue cards until departs the field after final whistle.
previously we had to quite cards at final whistle.

chrisrun
19 May 2005, 09:44 AM
http://dps.twiihosting.net/USSF/doc/content/doc_6_250.pdf
ussf says there are 3 clarifications in effect now. included is that ref can issue cards until departs the field after final whistle.
previously we had to quite cards at final whistle.
I meant to ask this before, but are we supposed to follow this directive, as it is specifically to "All Referees Working Professional League Matches". Most other memos are sent out to SRAs & the like, but this one wasn't.

HoldenMan
19 May 2005, 10:03 AM
brh - yes, that's completely correct as it's one of the law changes to come in.

Statesman
19 May 2005, 04:11 PM
If the player is to receive a card after the match the referee needs to show it. No card, no misconduct. If the player storms away or in unreachable then the captain is notified and shown the card instead of the player. If nobody is available, you could probably tell a team official that the report will include a caution towards the player and that he should be notified. Otherwise simply include all the details of the incident and that the intent was to caution but it was unable to be communicated for whatever reason.

As far as the coach, he should never be shown a card under any circumstance. Holdenman states some competitions override this and want cards to be shown, but that should never be the case under USSF sanctioned leagues. If it is, the referee should abide by the rule but report the league to USSF for corrective action. The option to not work for that league is also available. Either way, carding coaches or spectators is not sanctioned by USSF. If the referee wishes to take formal action against the team rep he can verbally notify him that he is dismissed. If the official is not present simply include the details in the match report.

What the referee cannot do is take formal action against players or team officials for misconduct or irresponsible behavior without either showing them a card in the case of a player, or verbally notifying them in the case of a team rep. You can't fill out the paperwork as if the caution/send-off occurred unless it was properly communicated at the time of occurance. All you can do is explain everything that happened in the match report.

HoldenMan
19 May 2005, 09:30 PM
Statesman - I think it's the High School matches where you can card non-players, but I believe those games aren't affiliated with FIFA anyway.

In regards to your first paragraph, i believe the Q&A states you can not show cards after the match.

brhsoccer14
20 May 2005, 12:24 PM
Remember guys, if misconduct occurs during the game and you allow advantage and want to administer a caution at the next stoppage, but the other team quickly puts the ball back in play that you must put the misconduct in the game report even if you don't show him the caution.

ref47
20 May 2005, 12:37 PM
see 2004 q&a's, law 5, #9.
and if you miss stopping the kick, call it back.

MassachusettsRef
20 May 2005, 12:39 PM
Remember guys, if misconduct occurs during the game and you allow advantage and want to administer a caution at the next stoppage, but the other team quickly puts the ball back in play that you must put the misconduct in the game report even if you don't show him the caution.According to whom?

If it's a send off situation, you should do everything possible to prevent the restart (in fact, in almost all circumstances, you shouldn't allow advantage anyway--and that's in the ATR!) and you should bring play back to issue the red card if the restart does occur.

If you were thinking about--or had even decided to give--a yellow card, you have to eat it (though if the restart doesn't look that promising, and the yellow card is necessary for man management, you could try to bring it back). I'm not aware of any instructions to include cautionable offences that weren't issued in a match report.

Now, if an AR or 4th sees misconduct that he can't communicate to the referee in time, that's an entirely different story.

brhsoccer14
20 May 2005, 01:06 PM
Oh, I didn't say if was a send-off not to show it! Don't get me wrong! If you thought that it was to the greater advantage to the team to let them play quickly and not show caution and that the match would not get out of hand, just include it in the match report. I've read the complete ATR and know a little bit :). Indeed, if it is a send-off offense and needs to be dealt with, you do what is needed.

MassachusettsRef
20 May 2005, 01:17 PM
Oh, I didn't say if was a send-off not to show it! Don't get me wrong! If you thought that it was to the greater advantage to the team to let them play quickly and not show caution and that the match would not get out of hand, just include it in the match report. I've read the complete ATR and know a little bit :). Indeed, if it is a send-off offense and needs to be dealt with, you do what is needed.The ATR comment wasn't directed at you, it was more of a general comment made in jest regarding some of my recent posts advocating some things that fall outside the bounds of the Laws and ATR.

Anyway, I still would like to know why you think we should include information regarding a caution that was not shown in a match report. Common sense, to me, seems that if you felt that the game could go on without it, then it really wasn't necessary. Moreover, the FIFA Q&A seems pretty clear in stating that, if you make a decision to show a yellow card, you just don't allow the restart, no matter how far along it might be. USSF has backed this up by issuing a position paper saying any restart after misconduct becomes a ceremonial restart.

brhsoccer14
20 May 2005, 07:05 PM
I know that, but I have also heard multiple times (and I think I read in one of the position papers) that you include all misconduct during the match. If you are doing a nothing game and all of the sudden a player fouls another player unfairly but the team gains advantage and later on when it is time to show the caution for UB, the team quickly restarts and you think it is not going to make a bad match and gives the team an obvious advantage so you let it go.

I've just been told that any time there is misconduct no matter if a card was shown or not shown due to certain reasons, you still have to put it in the match report.

I do not mean to challenge you or tell you you or wrong because I seem to agree with you on most of your arguments.

ref47
24 May 2005, 10:30 AM
better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and prove you are a fool.