No Stadium in Wolstein Jr. Plan?

[Joe Stoker]

www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/111589061235222.xml&coll=2

No mention of any plans previously associated with his late father... notably a convention center or soccer stadium.

[savetheforce]

I heard a rumor that Paul Garafolo is having a hard time getting the investors to give up the money needed.

[Joe Stoker]

This morning (6/1)...

www.cleveland.com/sports/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1117618498139970.xml&coll=2

[josomebody]

I'm suprised that nobody wanted to fork up the money last time around to put a stadium near Randall Park Mall. lol
Honestly though, there has got to be some suburb that would love the attention that a pro-team would bring. I say we sell the force, keep the name, and use the money and name to make ourselves a team. Sure the force is great but a MLS team would be so much better. Only problem is that we would have to play in a dome, which may not be so bad after all.

[CBusCrew12]

I said it before, if I were ever to bring a MLS team to the Cleveland I would build the SSS in Lakewood and name them Erie United. The name Cleveland is a curse to pro teams. The Cavs, Browns, and Indians are all struggling, and whenever they take steps in the right direction their future star young player falls off of his motorcycle and tears his ACL.

[josomebody]

I said it before, if I were ever to bring a MLS team to the Cleveland I would build the SSS in Lakewood and name them Erie United. The name Cleveland is a curse to pro teams. The Cavs, Browns, and Indians are all struggling, and whenever they take steps in the right direction their future star young player falls off of his motorcycle and tears his ACL.


lol. As ridiculous as Erie United sounds, I think you have a good point. Problem is that I think that the name of our beloved lake is too haunting, if I do say so myself. Maybe use Cuyahoga somewhere in there. P.S. What is the SSS?

[CBusCrew12]

I was thinking Cuyahoga or Erie. I had forgotten how to spell Cuyahoga so I went with Erie.

SSS= Soccer Specific Stadium, I believe. It's much better financially for MLS teams to have one of these than having to pay large amounts of $ to rent out a large stadium, NFL mostly, that will unfortunately be half empty.

[Bill Archer]

www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/111589061235222.xml&coll=2 (http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/111589061235222.xml&coll=2)

No mention of any plans previously associated with his late father... notably a convention center or soccer stadium.

I don't know what you're talking about here.

This project has been in the works for a decade. Furthermore, it's one of many, many projects that the Wolsteins and their investment partnerships are working on.

The list is probably 15 or twenty deals long. Most of these things take years and years to come to fruition. The Boston Millls soccer development isn't mentioned because it's not in any way relavant to the story.

[Joe Stoker]

No mention of it in the article, Bill. That's all I meant. If it's still somewhere in the to-do pile, fine. Just been a while since any dust has been publicly stirred... and the general public is losing what interest there ever was. Maybe a future generation of soccer fans will benefit.

[Bill Archer]

Fair enough.

I thought the point was that, since no mention was made in this particular article, the stadium project was dead. Which is something of a stretch to be sure.

That's not to say that it's NOT dead, but you and I both know the real story here: Wolstein Partners will not go ahead on this project without a substantial committment from a local governement. Any local government will do. And so far as we know, not a single one has shown the slightest inclination to commit the sort of substantial public funds which would be necessary to make it viable.

Oh, there's a long list of guys, from Cleveburg, Cuyahoga County, Summit County and various municipalities all on record as saying they think it's a swell idea and they're behind it 100%, but EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has made it clear, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that they have no intention of risking one iota of political capital by suggesting that one single dime of taxpayer money be used.

It's well known that Wolstein's interests have options on the land across from Boston Mills. Or possibly including Boston Mills itself. It was serious enough that Ohio Youth Soccer Association North, which is building a headquarters for it's bloated, self-important, bureaucratic self, was asked to hold off a bit because Wolstein wanted them to consider being a part of the "office development" portion of this project.

OYSAN saw little prospect of this happening and/or they're simply behaving like the complete greedbag asses they are, and went ahead elsewhere. (Bet me though if this comes to pass they'll be first in line for gimmes and freebies, like they currently are with the Crew. "Cross-marketing" and "cooperation" to them means "what do I get?")

It also would have been a great, maybe the perfect, place for Freidel's new multi-million dollar resdient youth academy. There's no record of them even seriously considering it, and they've broken ground elsewhere as well.

You begin to get the feeling that there was a moment in time when this was all possible, when a bunch of things could have been folded together and made into a viable whole. Bart Wolstein's passing caused a lack of momentum at a critical juncture, and that moment may now have passed.

His heirs are as serious about is as he was, because the point is to move dirt, pile up bricks and lease buildings just like it is with any other project. Soccer was the hook to try and lure public money, making the balance of the project so low-risk that their regular investors would happily pony up the balance.

But serious or no, without his substantial personality, which gave it whatever chance it may once have had, this thing looks to be on it's last legs.

[Bill Archer]

To help explain to some of you, who may not grasp the full import of just how stupid the City of Cleveland (Jane Doofus, Mayor) is, consider the story today in the Plain Dealer about the fight to keep Wal Mart out of the city.

Now I know Wal Mart is considered controversial, but Cleveland is a dying town losing jobs and retail by the boatload as it flees to the suburbs, escaping the lunatic asylum that Cleveland's political scene has become.

Nevertheless, they're building a "coalition" to stop it:
From today's Cleveland Plain-Dealer (http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/othercolumns/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1117963924206410.xml&coll=2):

"This is why so many job-starved Clevelanders have voiced concerns. Consider the coalition that is building: civil rights groups, elected officials, labor unionists, ministers, small business owners, and, most recently, Cleveland bloggers. We raise our voices in opposition because of the negative effects of a Wal-Mart Supercenter on our town."

In other words, Cleveland's elites who don't shop at Wal-Mart are opposed to allowing other people to shop at Wal-Mart. And those with jobs are raising their voices on behalf of "job-starved Clevelanders." Real profiles in courage. Good thing they weren't around when the dry goods stores and blacksmiths were feeling competitive pressures many years ago from supermarkets and the "horseless carriage".

Instead of a Wal-Mart, some (http://www.noclevelandwalmart.org/) propose a new "barter" system among downtown businesses (to prove I'm not making this up, I quote):

"Instead of a Wal-Mart why not:

Use the steelyard site to set-up a bartering community between local businesses. Some years ago I was in Connecticut visiting a college friend for a time. Local businesses had joined together and created a bartering system which allowed small business owners to spend real money on other things. An example:

A portrait painter needed some film developed. Instead of going to the nearest big box, she took it to a local developer who was part of the barter network and used some barter points to pay for it. The photo guy might have needed a birthday cake for his daughter and will use his barter points to purchase the cake from a local baker that is part of the barter network. The baker needs his car repaired and so uses his barter points at a local mechanic. The mechanic has been saving up her barter points and decides to get a portrait made for her sister and so she goes to the original portrait painter."


Now tell me that people of this mindset are likely to go along with building a soccer stadium. Unless there's an organic foods coop underneath it.

[Joe Stoker]

Bill, your thorough and well-thought-through postings brought to mind another point that had drifted into oblivion that perhaps you or another could update us on...

Didn't "Bart" have an exclusivity clause in that original agreement with MLS? I recall us counting down the days until the conditional franchise agreement supposedly expired, but I wonder if Scott and company could still legally prevent someone from out of the blue (say, Stronach and/or Freidel and friends, or if that email I regularly receive from that Nigerian bank is legit about 125 million awaiting me) from pursuing MLS for the Cleveland area?

If that exclusivity clause is still binding, it could be a long time before we'd see MLS in Cleveland. Recall that Bert Wolstein kept George Hoffman from entering the Crunch into MISL for a season by a similar legal maneuver after taking his ball and pouting all the way home back in the late 80s.

[Bill Archer]

Well of course a couple relative "old timers" with long memories could fill ten pages of thread space with the travails of Bart Wolstein and the Force.

(I found it hilarious the other day when one of the current owners said that whoever buys the Force should rename it The Crunch because it was such a well-known and recognizable brand. This after a ten year fight to get Wolstein to give up the name so they could change AWAY from Crunch back to Force. Just another in a long series of comedy sketches you couldn't sell because they'd call them "unbelieveable")

I haven't got time now to check, but it seems to me that Bart gave the league a check of some kind. I'm not sure exactly how it was charaterized, whether it was earnest money, or a "deposit" or some kind of performance bond or simply an option. I just don't recall.

But I'm sure it only bought them a window, not an open-ended commitment. And I'd bet that Wolstein didn't write that check on his personal grocery account. It would have been from the Partnership, in which case his son and the rest of the corporation would benefit from whatever it bought.

Nonetheless, it's likely that time is running out. MLS likes money, but there's a limit to what you can buy with a couple hundred thou, even from them.

[josomebody]

Honestly, the MLS plans in Cleveland sound dead. I hope I'm wrong and in case I am here are some ideas:

Milwuakee is proposing an MLS expansion team with the idea of putting a stadium in the downtown area as a focal point for business growth. This is a great idea (and one that has probably been thought up before I know...).

Furthermore, here are some ideas of how this can actually work in Cleveland. For one, real estate in downtown Cleveland can't possibly be all that expensive with the (sad to say) decrepit state that it is in. Furthermore, the Wolsteins (once partnered up with Freidel and co.) can then inquire into getting tax support via Cuyahoga county. Afterall, we know Cleveland proper is in bad shape, but some of the surrounding townships aren't all that bad off. These surrounding townships would possibly be willing to vote for an increase in county taxes, as this would not put them in a bad standing (i.e. they individually wouldn't be raising taxes) with the public.

That could be either total genius or another one of my hasty posts that has clearly been voiced by another individual unknown to me.

[Joe Stoker]

Welcome to the discussion, josomebody.

I'm going to give you a pencil and clipboard and send you down E 55th, Lexington Avenue, then down Hough, then over to Collinwood, Glenville, and East Cleveland to get opinions of real people with little $$$ to spare if Cuyahoga taxpayers want to foot the bill for a third playground palace for professional athletes downtown in the hope of spurring employment for waitresses, cooks and dishwashers in that vicinity. ;)

Don't take it personally, but we've been kicking this around here for a good long while now. The buzz dies down from time to time, and newcomers who want MLS in Cleveland as much as the rest of us eventually revive the questions/ideas. No harm. It's a public board and it's bound to occur. Some veteran posters get all huffy about it when all that needs said to newbies is to kindly check out the old threads. Your fresh thoughts are more than appreciated.

Well, Browns Stadium, the Gund, and Jacobs field have been around for some years now, and I don't see much happening beyond restaurants (which have come & gone , replaced with more of the same) and trinket shops. An improvement over the boarded storefronts, pawnshops & sleazy bookstores of an earlier era, but it doesn't provide much of a return for the real people whose hard-earned cash goes into it all (or into the pockets of a select few).

The current "Plan B" of the neo-Wolsteins is to soak Summit County by increasing real estate transaction costs (and I will personally take out a contract on the first politician who tries ramrodding that through w/o a vote). As you may have heard up there in Cleveland, we really don't have much industry or real jobs down here in the sticks, so an income tax increase for pro soccer wouldn't be expected to fly. Especially not in Akron or Cuyahoga Falls, where our ingenious school boards have put us over barrels recently.

As far as the Wolstein plan as we know it, yea, I'd say it's not looking healthy. But something is always going on over lunch martinis with those guys and others. Just keep us (taxpayers) out of it this time, thank you.

[josomebody]

Thank you, for once someone hasn't outrightly blasted me for being a newbie. I appreciate someone giving me a little grace this time.

Additionally, you are right, taxpayers shouldn't be bothered with carrying another stadium/sports franchise. I would then say that the only way for cleveland to get an mls team is for some of these rich entrepreneurs to outright cough up the money to start a team on their own financial base. All I know is that it pains me to see cities like kansas city have teams when no one goes to see them play and for cleveland not to. We should have the fan base via youth soccer. It may just take another generation for this thing to swing into gear. We'll get a team one day....

[Joe Stoker]

... All I know is that it pains me to see cities like kansas city have teams when no one goes to see them play and for cleveland not to. We should have the fan base via youth soccer. It may just take another generation for this thing to swing into gear. We'll get a team one day....

No doubt the MLS initially hired top-notch bean-counters and number-crunchers who told them KC was a good venture. The major reason IMO was probably Lamar Hunt (NFL Chiefs, Arrowhead Stadium). Any Wizards fans care to illuminate?

Sidebar: KC Spurs got some good support back in the early NASL days (attendance leader in '68 & '69 if I recall). Even broadcast their games on a major radio station. In English. Curious, of all the places the NASL went back to, KC wasn't one. Hopefully, MLS can keep KC on its map.

As for Cleveland, you just never know what another day brings around here. Maybe between Brad Friedel, the Drewster, and the neo-Wolsteins, a better idea may arise. Start at Byers, build in Strongsville (editorial comment).

[wufc]

Hunt owning Arrowhead was 90% of the reason MLS gave him a team.

[Joe Stoker]

Hunt owning Arrowhead was 90% of the reason MLS gave him a team.

As I suspected. ;) Thanks.

Likewise, I seem to recall Arrowhead (& the demolition of old Municipal Stadium) being a major factor on the Spurs (Latshaw & co.) pulling the plug in Feb '71. Too big, too pricey for so little an operation as was the NASL at that time... even though there was that cheesy publicity photo that ran in The Sporting News a year or two earlier of all the KC team owners (including the Spurs) shovelling the initial divots that would become Arrowhead.

Would guess the youngest surviving Spurs' fans are now approaching 50... and anticipating the new season of Monday Night Football. Pretty much the same story in Cleveland.

[AndyMead]

Hunt owning Arrowhead was 90% of the reason MLS gave him a team.

Hunt owns 0% of Arrowhead.

The Jackson County Sports Commission owns Harry S Truman Sports Complex, including both Kauffman and Arrowhead.

I'm not sure whether it's Lamar Hunt or Hunt Sports Group, or even Unity Hunt, but let's just say "Lamar". Anyway Lamar Hunt has a 40 year contract that rents Arrowhead from the Sports Commission for something on the order of $1/year. The Commission gets pretty much all the parking revenues and a large chunk of concessions. In exchange they perform maintenance on the facilities - which is currently close to default - leading to some sabre rattling about either the Royals or Chiefs leaving KC - or at least HST.

George Toma, the legendary groundskeeper, started growing plots of grass during the long summers in Arrowhead in the late 80s as an experiment to see if temporary turf fields could be grown over artificial turf. His experiments led to the U.S.'s successful bid for the 1994 World Cup - which included several grass over turf fields - most notably the Pontiac Silverdome. For a long while, due to Lamar's involvement, Arrowhead was both in the running to be a site for the 94 Cup and actually in the running for the Final itself. The problem is that Arrowheads rounded corners would've had to have been blasted out. Hunt couldn't convince Jackson County to foot the bill for demolision and rebuilding after the Cup, and we all know how tight with a buck Lamar is, so Arrowhead missed out on the World Cup.

Once it became obvious in 1995 that MLS, LLC wasn't going to be able to find 10 seperate ownership groups and sites, the cheap rent at Arrowhead became a no-brainer.