2 Midfielders

[ursula]

I present for your inspection today two midfielders. They have several qualities in common:

- Both are average/short in height
- Both are considered smart; wily even.
- Both are way versatile. They each have played every midfield position in MLS and even some forward in an emergency. One gets the impression that they could play a credible outside back in defense if they were asked to embrace that.
- Both are considered "feisty"

In short both are your basic two-way veteran midfielders and are compensated well for it.

How they differ:

In the last two years they have each been asked to play a bunch of games as central midfielders and as a winger. Here are there stats at those positions:

Midfielder 1

2003 saw him as a d-mid where he tallied 6 goals, 0 assists for a team that scored 38 goals.
2004 saw him split time between central midfield (24 games, 2 goals, 9 assists, 4 yellow cards, 1 straight red)

and wing (including playoffs: 8 games, 1 assist, 0 goals, 4 yellow (leading to 1 red) and 1 straight red).

This on a 53 goal scoring team (including playoffs)

Midfielder 2

2003 saw him as a winger (4 goals, 7 assists on that 38 goal team)
2004 saw him as a central midfielder (3 goals, 4 assists on that 53 goal team)


So which position - wing or central midfield - best suits which player?

To me it's fairly obvious- Dema belongs in the middle while Benny is most productive on the outside.

I'll go further: Regardless of what Nowak said last year i think the reason why he put Benny in the middle was because he knew he had another experienced right winger in Earnie Stewart. But he didn't have another experienced left winger other than Convey. Then, after Convey left and Gros showed that he could handle the basics of the position, and that Dema could too, and that Carroll was improving at d-mid - he kept Benny in the middle and shifted Dema outside to compete with Josh.


So this year without Earnie, Ben is now being shifted outside where he is now the best right winger. The question is now- what to do with Dema, especially now that Adu is staking claim to a-mid along with Gomez. I think that when Adu is with the U-20's, Dema will take his place but when Adu comes back, Dema will beat out Carroll and Simms for the d-mid spot.

Less likely, Dema will go back to competiting with Josh for the left wing spot. For that to happen Josh will have to play poor defense on the wing (and he has a big test this saturday).

The reality is that while Fred is gone, Dema, Carroll, Gros, and Simms will be auditioning for two spots. I bet my house that Dema gets one of them.

[Bootsy Collins]

Midfielder 1

2004 saw him split time between central midfield (24 games, 2 goals, 9 assists, 4 yellow cards, 1 straight red)

and wing (including playoffs: 8 games, 1 assist, 0 goals, 4 yellow (leading to 1 red) and 1 straight red).

Just out of curiosity, is the "1 assist" above the brilliant pass to Moreno in the 6-2 match against the Metros? Or was he playing centrally in that match, but just happened to have gone outside for an overlapping run on that play? I can't remember.



The question is now- what to do with Dema, especially now that Adu is staking claim to a-mid along with Gomez. I think that when Adu is with the U-20's, Dema will take his place but when Adu comes back, Dema will beat out Carroll and Simms for the d-mid spot.

Less likely, Dema will go back to competiting with Josh for the left wing spot. For that to happen Josh will have to play poor defense on the wing (and he has a big test this saturday).

The reality is that while Fred is gone, Dema, Carroll, Gros, and Simms will be auditioning for two spots. I bet my house that Dema gets one of them.
If you're putting Gros in there because one of those two spots is left wing, are you figuring that there'll be no competition from Guppy?

[ursula]

Just out of curiosity, is the "1 assist" above the brilliant pass to Moreno in the 6-2 match against the Metros? Or was he playing centrally in that match, but just happened to have gone outside for an overlapping run on that play? I can't remember.



If you're putting Gros in there because one of those two spots is left wing, are you figuring that there'll be no competition from Guppy?

1) Dema got his 1 assist as a winger in the 1-0 third to the last regular seasoon game vs the metro. He passed the ball to Freddy who hit that shot that deflected off Parke for the only score in that match.


2) Honestly- and unrealistically I admit- I've written off Guppy. Not because I think he sucks (I don't) but because we'll normally have a better option then him IMO. I would rather see Dema or Gros any day at left wing. Given that Guppy's already racked up two injuries so far (hamstring and achillies) I think we won't play in that many games anyway.

[Sanguine]

The beauty of both players is that they can literally play anywhere in the midfield. One of the team's best stretches of 2003 was when we had Ben playing LEFT wing. He seems to be re-energized with his move outside recently, so I think it's in our best interest to keep him there as long as it's working. Dema will need to fight to win one of the other four spots. With Freddy leaving for the U-20s soon, he'll have plenty of opportunities to claim a spot in the lineup.

[Cuchulain]

The reality is that while Fred is gone, Dema, Carroll, Gros, and Simms will be auditioning for two spots. I bet my house that Dema gets one of them.

Thanks for that stat breakdown. I was actually curious about that.

I don't really see PN disrupting much. I imagine benny will stay wide right, gros on the left, and (I agree) dema, when ready, will earn the start next to simms or carroll behind gomez/freddy. although I hate the idea of using an SI on a bench warmer, I agree that the gupper may spend most of his time watching from now on. but I'm sure looking forward to dema coming back. I wonder if frankie heydude will be so quick to cheap shot freddy now.

all in all, this is a fairly pleasant quandary to be in. now if we can just get 'tino some playing time...

[Arisrules]

Whether Dema is on the wing, DM, CB, striker, or goalie, for me he would be one of the first players I would pencil in every match if I was Nowak.

I know a lot of you were pissed off that Mapp was let go, but I would have done that trade 100/100 times.


I don't think Dema is a superstar, but I think the qualities that Dema brings to the field every day are hard to replicate. Incredible intensity, passion, sticks up for his teammates, a very good understanding of the game of soccer, and a very good skillset which allows him to play good balls, and have above average finishing capabilities.

Nowak would be stupid to not start Dema once he is fully healthy.


I was also surprised to see Olsen playing so well on the wing. I thought that after his ankle surgeries, his speed had fallen to the level where he wouldn't be as effective as he once was. But I guess I was wrong.


Also, where does Santino fit in your lineup Ursula.

[Th4119]

Using an SI slot for someone on the bench really doesn't make a difference anymore in MLS.

The league is no longer dependent on their SIs to be the key role players on a team like it was in the beginning, and furthermore, each team has four slots instead of three now so it's not as much of a waste.

What does matter is what the higher salaried players are doing for your team.

Anyway, Dema should be match fit right around when Freddy leaves for the U-20s in two games, so that should coincide perfectly.

[griffin1108]

While Olsen clearly looks energized at wing, he also doesn't have the wheels or lungs to go 90 out there. Against C-bus, Ben was gassed by the end and Mediate was beginning to own him through sheer stamina. Possibly you could develop an Olsen/Guppy tandem that goes 90 on the wing. (I know Olsen plays right and Guppy left, but you could switch with the remaining wing or do a double substitution.) I know that sounds nuts, but Skip, so did your Adu/Gomez lineup suggestion. Maybe lightning strikes twice.

[Lanky134]

Interesting analysis, ursula, but I think you're omitting something. In 2003, our lack of offensive output had more to do with the style we played than who played where. It was a ball-control offense with players not venturing forward to avoid getting caught out of position. It didn't matter whether Dema or Ben played in the center or the wing because our system wasn't built around either of their strengths. In 2004, our offense was built catching teams on the counterattack. That plays to both of their strengths. Also, Ben's presence in the central midfield last year was essential to Carroll's development, which couldn't have been achieved with Dema.

[ursula]

Also, where does Santino fit in your lineup Ursula.

Glad we agree on Dema.

Where does Tino fit? Right now he's the first sub at right wing and forward. I'm pretty sure Nowak's gonna give Eskandarian lots of time to get healthy and straightened out. Olsen has the right wing job back.


Possibly you could develop an Olsen/Guppy tandem that goes 90 on the wing. (I know Olsen plays right and Guppy left, but you could switch with the remaining wing or do a double substitution.) I know that sounds nuts, but Skip, so did your Adu/Gomez lineup suggestion. Maybe lightning strikes twice.

I know I'm overly negative on Guppy, so you may be more right as to the first winger sub being Guppy. I hope it's Tino instead. regardless, whatever works.

[ursula]

Interesting analysis, ursula, but I think you're omitting something. In 2003, our lack of offensive output had more to do with the style we played than who played where. It was a ball-control offense with players not venturing forward to avoid getting caught out of position. It didn't matter whether Dema or Ben played in the center or the wing because our system wasn't built around either of their strengths. In 2004, our offense was built catching teams on the counterattack. That plays to both of their strengths. Also, Ben's presence in the central midfield last year was essential to Carroll's development, which couldn't have been achieved with Dema.


Yeah you may be right here, but my (very few) good memories of 2003 start with a DCU victory in Chicago where Olsen scored a header goal, waxing some rookie winger (Fuga....) from a pinpoint cross from Stoichkov. The point here is that Olsen on the wing as well as Dema at d-mid scored a disproportonate number of goals for that team because they both know how to make dangerous runs from those positions. I think the stats bear this out as well as noting that though Olsen can play in the middle and Dema can play the wing competantly, they are just more effective in the positions that they grew up in. If in 03 Dema had been a winger and Olsen a d-mid the team wouldn't have made the playoffs.

Regarding Carroll's development, Dema played the first 24 games in 04 in the central midfield. 24 out of 34 total games. I'm not so confident to chalk up Carroll's development to Olsen without Dema getting his share.

[Steve Long]

Skip,

I am inclined to attribute Brian Carroll's development to his working with Ben Olsen more than with Dema because in my several interviews with Brian, he specifically referred to his good understanding when working with Ben.

He put it simply when noting that each would cover as the other advanced into attack, switching the holding and defending roles in midfield.

I suspect that Dema did a bit less explaining of things to Brian than Ben would have done. It may be a simple personality thing. While Dema and Ben are both vocal, Ben is bit more analytical and may have helped Brian to analyze and adjust.

In regard to Brian's current slump, he went through one last year and related to me how he had reviewed game tapes and gone back to what had worked. That reflects his analytical approach to development and supports my theory that Ben's style probably was a major element in Brian's progress.

[rugman]

I agree that Ben seems to be covering the missing piece that Earnie contributed in the second half of last year. With Carroll not currently in form, I would like to see Ben, Dema and Simms interchangeable in the position of the two DM's and wing. If Ben truly can not go 90 on the wing then switch him back to DM and let Dema or Simms take over. We have a deep team with competition at almost every position. Peter can play lineups that will offer the best matchups against an opponent this year.

[ursula]

Skip,

I am inclined to attribute Brian Carroll's development to his working with Ben Olsen more than with Dema because in my several interviews with Brian, he specifically referred to his good understanding when working with Ben.

He put it simply when noting that each would cover as the other advanced into attack, switching the holding and defending roles in midfield.

I suspect that Dema did a bit less explaining of things to Brian than Ben would have done. It may be a simple personality thing. While Dema and Ben are both vocal, Ben is bit more analytical and may have helped Brian to analyze and adjust.

In regard to Brian's current slump, he went through one last year and related to me how he had reviewed game tapes and gone back to what had worked. That reflects his analytical approach to development and supports my theory that Ben's style probably was a major element in Brian's progress.


Thanks Steve. I stand corrected Dave.



The issue of Brian Carroll is now complicated by one Clyde Simms, the man who Arena has called into camp. United has a very deep midfield and a couple of starters will be on the bench.

[Lanky134]

Thanks Steve. I stand corrected Dave.



In all honesty, I was just speculating for argument's sake...

[ursula]

Well it was good speculatin' then! I'll call it an educated guess on your part.

[Lanky134]

Well it was good speculatin' then! I'll call it an educated guess on your part.
I figured there had to be an intangible that I could mention to further my "Keep Dema Off The Field" agenda...