Deliberate? Handball, Chivas v Real (R)

[PVancouver]

A handball in the box in the 38th minute decided the game, as Hector Cuadros converted the PK for the only goal of the game.

Cuadros was outside the box and less than a yard away from Rojas when he attempted a cross, kicking the ball hard at a 30 degree angle or higher up into the air. The well-struck ball deflected off of Rojas left hand, which was positioned in a normal way for balance, and was almost completely on the other side of his body away from the ball. Rojas was clearly attempting to block the cross/shot with his foot, and no one could anticipate such a high kick from Cuadros. In the fraction of a second Rojas had to react, he appeared to attempt to pull his hand away from the ball.

Christian Miles called the play on Fox Sports Net: "As you can tell, right away, clear as day, handball, penalty kick. You got to say unlucky for Rojas, really nothing he could have done to get it [his hand] out of his way, but indeed a drastic mistake."

He claimed the assistant referee, Jose Corro, made the call, and Terry Vaughn awarded the penalty. However, THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A PENALTY! Did FIFA drop the word "deliberate" from the Laws of the Game? There is no possible way Rojas' handball could be construed as deliberate. Yet a penalty was awarded just the same.

If Christian Miles, who has commentated countless international soccer matches, believes that a handball was the correct call, then let's change the law, and drop the word "deliberate." Because the enforcement of current law is a joke. Yes, some people would agree with me that the Rojas handball call was unjust, but just as many would claim it was just, indeed. And maybe half the refs in the league would call it just, as well.

How many times has a defender tried to clear a ball in his own box and hit an attacker in the hands? The attacker, standing nearby, has no time to react, but still the attacker is called for a handball. This happened in the LA-Colorado game the next day at the same stadium. In the 80th minute, Chung and Naldo attempt to kick the ball in the air as it drops at the 18. Chung reaches it first and drives it hard into Naldo's right arm. Even though the handball was clearly not deliberate, it also clearly affected play, so Jair Murrufo blows the whistle and offers a free kick. No mention is given by Max Bretos and company and no complaints are made by any of the players. In fact, several of them are raising their hand. I'm sorry, but this is not a foul. A free kick should not have been awarded.

I believe the rule should be enforced as it is written. But if that can't be done, let's change the rule. The current situation is unacceptable.

[MassachusettsRef]

Ok, I'll bite.

I just watched the video and Rojas' arm is noticeably higher than it was during all of his strides to chase down Cuadros. It looks to me like Rojas instinctively threw his arm up when the cross was made. I personally would have given the PK.

Debatable? Of course. But I don't think it's nearly as controversial or bad as you made it out to be in your post. There have been much worse examples of non-deliberate handling being called for penalties.

[Ismitje]

Ok, I'll bite.

I just watched the video and Rojas' arm is noticeably higher than it was during all of his strides to chase down Cuadros. It looks to me like Rojas instinctively threw his arm up when the cross was made. I personally would have given the PK.

Debatable? Of course. But I don't think it's nearly as controversial or bad as you made it out to be in your post. There have been much worse examples of non-deliberate handling being called for penalties.

I seem to be the lone RSL supporter who agrees with the call - if he was in the box when it happened. A foul, yes, but penalty kick - it's close enough that I would have put the ball on the edge of the box rather than the penalty spot.

Christian Miles' statement is pretty accurate - unfortunate for Rojas. But he has to keep his arm down on the play.

[IASocFan]

... A foul, yes, but penalty kick - it's close enough that I would have put the ball on the edge of the box rather than the penalty spot.

Christian Miles' statement is pretty accurate - unfortunate for Rojas. But he has to keep his arm down on the play.

"Close enough to put the ball on the edge of the box" better be so close that you can't tell whether it was in the box or outside the box. If the CR and AR know the foul is in the box, it needs to be a PK.

[Kfrank]

No PK.

Watching on slow-mo confirms first impression, and the no-call I would have made, his arm moving up a bit is natural as he extended his leg to block what he thought was going to be a ground ball.

The case is just as easily made that it can't be a deliberate handling because of the distance from the kick to contact and the velocity of the ball - not likely he could react that fast if deliberately moving his arm to block it.

Bad call. Although not as atrocious as the last PK called in the Colorado/LA match - now that's a travesty.

[MassachusettsRef]

The case is just as easily made that it can't be a deliberate handling because of the distance from the kick to contact and the velocity of the ball - not likely he could react that fast if deliberately moving his arm to block it.I won't argue whether this is a PK or not, because the call could have easily gone either way. I do take issue with this logic, however.

Why must deliberate handling be a reaction? Can't it just as easily be an anticipation? For instance, any defender in this particular situation knows that Cuadros is going to do one of two things: A) try to beat him with speed dribbling and go around him towards goal or B) cross the ball into the area. In anticipation of the second event, once he sees the attacker lining up to strike the ball, couldn't a defender throw his arm up to make himself bigger and be guilty of deliberate handling when his hand then touches the ball?

Again, you don't have to agree that that's what happened. But just because a ball is kicked really hard and the defender is very close doesn't mean that a deliberate act of handling couldn't have occurred.

[Scott Zawadzki]

In anticipation of the second event, once he sees the attacker lining up to strike the ball, couldn't a defender throw his arm up to make himself bigger and be guilty of deliberate handling when his hand then touches the ball?

Just took a look at the play in question...looks like "BayStateArbiter" has it spot on...no more need for comment.

[Kfrank]

Why must deliberate handling be a reaction? Can't it just as easily be an anticipation? For instance, any defender in this particular situation knows that Cuadros is going to do one of two things: A) try to beat him with speed dribbling and go around him towards goal or B) cross the ball into the area. In anticipation of the second event, once he sees the attacker lining up to strike the ball, couldn't a defender throw his arm up to make himself bigger and be guilty of deliberate handling when his hand then touches the ball?

Again, you don't have to agree that that's what happened. But just because a ball is kicked really hard and the defender is very close doesn't mean that a deliberate act of handling couldn't have occurred.

In theory, perhaps. But watching this actual play develop that's just not what happened. Even the announcers, Chivas announcers, asserted that the defender was unlucky and that there was nothing he could have done to move his hand out of the way (because of the closeness of the attacker and velocity) . Those are not the attributes of what is fairly judged to be deliberate handling.

[Statesman]

I felt it was a fairly obvious incident of handling. Rojas clearly put his arm in an "unnatural position" in anticipation of the cross. As a result of this deliberate action he handled the ball, and the contact occurred just inside the penalty area. Straightforward call easily made by Vaughn.

I'm surprised this incident is being discussed rather than the earlier incident of possible handling. I don't recall who was involved but a Real player had the ball strike his arm off a hard strike from about a yard away. However, in that incident it appeared the arm was in a natural position and was not placed in anticipation of the strike. Instead the Real player was running towards the Chivas player and had the ball kicked directly into him. The commentators stated it was a "clear handball" that deserved a penalty, but from my perspective it was not the case in the least.

For the commentators to state the first incident was "clearly a handball" and the second incident was not just goes to show how misinformed they truly are, regardless of how many matches they may have done in the past. The referee made the correct decision in both incidents.

[blech]

"Close enough to put the ball on the edge of the box" better be so close that you can't tell whether it was in the box or outside the box. If the CR and AR know the foul is in the box, it needs to be a PK.

i agree completely - it either was a handball or it wasn't (i believe it was), and it was either in the box or it wasn't (i believe it was) - but the last thing you want to do is try to deliver some kind of justice by saying [to yourself] it was kind of a handball but i don't want to give a pk so i'll just move the infraction outside the area to avoid the tough call - you've got to call the plays that develop the way you see it - that's the best you can do - as a general rule, if you start messing around, you're only going to get into trouble

[Ray Luca]

A handball in the box in the 38th minute decided the game, as Hector Cuadros converted the PK for the only goal of the game.

Cuadros was outside the box and less than a yard away from Rojas when he attempted a cross, kicking the ball hard at a 30 degree angle or higher up into the air. The well-struck ball deflected off of Rojas left hand, which was positioned in a normal way for balance, and was almost completely on the other side of his body away from the ball. Rojas was clearly attempting to block the cross/shot with his foot, and no one could anticipate such a high kick from Cuadros. In the fraction of a second Rojas had to react, he appeared to attempt to pull his hand away from the ball.

Christian Miles called the play on Fox Sports Net: "As you can tell, right away, clear as day, handball, penalty kick. You got to say unlucky for Rojas, really nothing he could have done to get it [his hand] out of his way, but indeed a drastic mistake."

He claimed the assistant referee, Jose Corro, made the call, and Terry Vaughn awarded the penalty. However, THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A PENALTY! Did FIFA drop the word "deliberate" from the Laws of the Game? There is no possible way Rojas' handball could be construed as deliberate. Yet a penalty was awarded just the same.

If Christian Miles, who has commentated countless international soccer matches, believes that a handball was the correct call, then let's change the law, and drop the word "deliberate." Because the enforcement of current law is a joke. Yes, some people would agree with me that the Rojas handball call was unjust, but just as many would claim it was just, indeed. And maybe half the refs in the league would call it just, as well.

How many times has a defender tried to clear a ball in his own box and hit an attacker in the hands? The attacker, standing nearby, has no time to react, but still the attacker is called for a handball. This happened in the LA-Colorado game the next day at the same stadium. In the 80th minute, Chung and Naldo attempt to kick the ball in the air as it drops at the 18. Chung reaches it first and drives it hard into Naldo's right arm. Even though the handball was clearly not deliberate, it also clearly affected play, so Jair Murrufo blows the whistle and offers a free kick. No mention is given by Max Bretos and company and no complaints are made by any of the players. In fact, several of them are raising their hand. I'm sorry, but this is not a foul. A free kick should not have been awarded.

I believe the rule should be enforced as it is written. But if that can't be done, let's change the rule. The current situation is unacceptable.

He was facing the play hand was out from the body. Don't want a handball called against you get out of the way. It is a judgement call by the official you can't win arguments on judgement calls only on the rules.

Ball hits you when your not looking at it not a handball.

[NHRef]

Where can we all see a video of this play?

[Ray Luca]

Where can we all see a video of this play?

Does it really matter what you saw or what I saw it only matters what those officials saw.

[Kfrank]

Where can we all see a video of this play?

http://www.mlsnet.com/MLS/mls/sights/index.jsp?club=mls

About 4 to 5 minutes into the highlight clip of the game.

[NHRef]

Does it really matter what you saw or what I saw it only matters what those officials saw.

It doesn't matter for this game and this call, but it does help to see what the higher levels refs call and don't call. Over calling handling is one of the major things in most refs, I like to watch things like this to see what happened and what the refs at the highest level are calling and not calling.

[law5guy]

Just watched in on mlsnet..

The coach thew out the red hanky....
After further review, the play stands. Handball is correct, and nothing in the replay that shows that it was clearly outside.

Cheers...

[blech]

It doesn't matter for this game and this call, but it does help to see what the higher levels refs call and don't call. Over calling handling is one of the major things in most refs, I like to watch things like this to see what happened and what the refs at the highest level are calling and not calling.

absolutely correct. we can all learn from discussing this, and it is helpful to get other's views as to whether they would make a similar call. indeed, a big part of what we're doing in this forum is discussing plays that occurred. that is sometimes a refresher on the laws themselves, but at other times a discussion about how the application of the laws where examples are critical. it's certainly better to be able to see it than to rely on someone's summary. if we can't discuss a call simply because the ref made it, then most of this forum can be shut down.

[PVancouver]

I felt it was a fairly obvious incident of handling. Rojas clearly put his arm in an "unnatural position" in anticipation of the cross. As a result of this deliberate action he handled the ball, and the contact occurred just inside the penalty area. Straightforward call easily made by Vaughn.I would dispute that Rojas had his arm in an unnatural position, but if that was the case, it was a good call.

I'm surprised this incident is being discussed rather than the earlier incident of possible handling. I don't recall who was involved but a Real player had the ball strike his arm off a hard strike from about a yard away. However, in that incident it appeared the arm was in a natural position and was not placed in anticipation of the strike. Instead the Real player was running towards the Chivas player and had the ball kicked directly into him. The commentators stated it was a "clear handball" that deserved a penalty, but from my perspective it was not the case in the least.At 18:20 two Chivas players chase Akwari into the penalty area and Mendoza kicks the ball into Akwari's chest from about foot away. The ball might touched Akwari's left arm, although it clearly hit him in the chest and face. Both Chivas players appeal for a handball call as it was in the penalty area, but none is given. The commentators don't give any opinion on this case. However, had a handball/PK been awarded, it would have been a gross miscarriage of justice, and Miles and Guevara should have said so, even if the ball hit him in the arm "plain as day". I didn't catch the first 7 minutes of the game, so possibly you are referring to a different play.

For the commentators to state the first incident was "clearly a handball" and the second incident was not just goes to show how misinformed they truly are, regardless of how many matches they may have done in the past. The referee made the correct decision in both incidents.Actually, they said the second incident was clearly a handball, and so do you. On the first case, they might not have been sure if the ball hit Akwari in the arm, so that might have been the only reason they didn't claim the first incident was a handball as well.

I would agree with you that there does not need to be any reaction time in order for a deliberate handball to be called. But it there is little reaction time, the hand either needs to be in an obviously unnatural position, or be moving in the direction of blocking the ball as opposed to moving away from it. If there is significant doubt about the deliberateness of the handball, a penalty kick should NOT be awarded.

Real Salt Lake coach John Ellinger said "Obviously, I can't comment on what I really want to comment on, so you've just got to deal with it, suck it up and move on." I think I know what he was referring to.

I used to laugh when I saw Eddie Pope do his "Pope-a-dope" act, putting his hands behind his back as if he was being cuffed when tackling a player in the penalty area, but now I'm not so sure. I don't think that should be in the game of soccer, but apparently it needs to be.