"National Pastime: How Americans Play Baseball and the Rest of the World Plays Soccer

[microbrew]

National Pastime: How Americans Play Baseball and the Rest of the World Plays Soccer (https://www.brookings.edu/press/books/nationalpastime.htm)

Review by the Economist (http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_id=3909398)

Looks interesting. Looks like it covers some more of the ground in this article (http://slate.msn.com/id/2103170/).

[SABuffalo786]

Is that guy stuck in 1960? Baseball hasn't been our national pastime for years now.

[skipshady]

Is that guy stuck in 1960? Baseball hasn't been our national pastime for years now.
It is and it isn't. Football makes more money and (I'm guessing) March Madness is bigger TV. But it is part of the American cultural fabric.

People get all upset about the steroid scandals because it's baseball. We're bombarded with the Red Sox. If it was any other sport, there is no talk about a curse and the Red Sox are just a decent franchise that hadn't been able to win the big one.

[Colonel Angus]

Is that guy stuck in 1960? Baseball hasn't been our national pastime for years now.

I still think it's our pastime, but football (the gridiron kind) is clearly America's passion.

[microbrew]

Which sport sells the most tickets and puts the most butts in seats? In the U.S., at least?

I don't know the answer, it could be NASCAR. But, MLB beats out NFL, NBA, etc. See http://www.kenn.com/sports/.

[Dkrift]

Which sport sells the most tickets and puts the most butts in seats? In the U.S., at least?

I don't know the answer, it could be NASCAR. But, MLB beats out NFL, NBA, etc. See http://www.kenn.com/sports/.

Are you talking sheer number? If so, you should take into account ticket prices, availability of seats and amounts of games played. I am sure there is an economic formula hidden somewhere there. :D

[Warren Van Orden]

Which sport sells the most tickets and puts the most butts in seats? In the U.S., at least?
Horse Racing.

[Anteaters FC]

It's an interesting book, I'm about halfway through it. Rather than a history or a sociological look, it's more of an overview of trends, with an economic focus (the two authors are economists) on the business side of things, and what the leaders and organizers of both sports can learn from each other.

[CrewSchmack]

I think you all are missing the point.

They picked Baseball because of the time the leagues started. However, if you look at Baseball and how it evolved...you see that it is a metaphor for 99% of pro sport in the US and Canada. They could look at Football if they wanted, but baseball provides a better metaphor due to the timing of its rise to prominence.

The closest thing to European football in the US is NCAA Division I Football. And that's because of the regional leagues, and that you can actually get demoted and promoted from Division I to Division I-AA (look at Troy State, Marshall and Temple for examples). It just doesn't happen very often

[Beez]

This is sort of a tangent, but the "American exceptionalism" notion is rather misleading.

Look at the 10 most populous nations in the world (US Census Bureau, 2004), and their relationship to soccer:
1. China, 1.3b .......a potential power, to be sure, but only once a World Cup participant...I honestly don't know where the sport ranks in popularity these days... didn't make final stages for 2006 qualifying
2. India, 1.1b........never played in a World Cup; the sport ranks far behind cricket and field hockey... finished way behind Oman for second place in opening stage WC06 qualifying.
3. USA, 293m.......you know the story
4. Indonesia, 238m......Soccer can't match badminton in popularity; nation's never reached World Cup... didn't come close to reaching final stage of '06 qualiying
5. Brazil, 184m......the global power
6. Pakistan, 159m....went winless in 2002 qualifying... never made World Cup... lost to Kyrgystan in prelims for '06... cricket and field hockey reign supreme
7. Russia, 144m.....the sport's very popular there, but is it bigger than hockey?
8. Bangladesh, 144m.....Never made the World Cup ... ousted in first round by Tajikistan for 06 ... a cricket nation foremost
9. Nigeria, 137m....an excellent footballing nation
10. Japan, 127m....Essentially in the same boat as the US -- there's a pro league, but it's not king, and the national team is very good, but not great.

Now, I realize that international success isn't the only barometer of the sport's popularity. I'm guessing that Man U and Champions League are much bigger stories in all nine of these countries than they are in America. But is it fair to say that in eight of the 10 nations listed, soccer isn't the No. 1 sport? Seven? Six?

The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think we're quite as "exceptionalist" as others might believe. We've resisted soccer to a greater degree than most nations, but I wouldn't go so far to suggest that "the rest of the world" is totally football-mad, while the US is immune.

[rangers00]

1. China, 1.3b .......a potential power, to be sure, but only once a World Cup participant...I honestly don't know where the sport ranks in popularity these days... didn't make final stages for 2006 qualifying

Basketball used to be (> 20 years ago) the #1 sport in China, but now soccer is king.


4. Indonesia, 238m......Soccer can't match badminton in popularity; nation's never reached World Cup... didn't come close to reaching final stage of '06 qualiying

Never reached World Cup as Indonesia the country, but they were the first Asian territory to reach the final stage of the World Cup: 1938 Dutch East Indies.

[AndyMead]

Is that guy stuck in 1960? Baseball hasn't been our national pastime for years now.

I don't see baseball not being our "national pastime" in my lifetime. That doesn't mean it's the most popular or relevant team sport. It does mean that it is part and parcel of our culture and idiom.

I've yet to meet a foreigner that really gets what it is to be American that hasn't mastered a rudimentary understanding and appreciation for baseball.

[skipshady]

10. Japan, 127m....Essentially in the same boat as the US -- there's a pro league, but it's not king, and the national team is very good, but not great.
Not quite. The Japanese national team is the biggest draw on TV. No, not the biggest sports draw on TV, the biggest draw period. If you look at the highest rated TV programs in any given year, Japan NT matches will come in near, if not at, the top.

And baseball is in deep deep trouble. Everyone except Yomiuri Giants are losing assloads of money and last year, two struggling clubs merged to minimize losses, while another team lost its corporate backer.

Meanwhile, soccer has three very healthy products, in order, the national team, European soccer and J-League.

So yeah, I see the point you're making but Japan is nowhere close to being in the same boat as the US when it comes to soccer and other sports.

[cdmphy]

This is sort of a tangent, but the "American exceptionalism" notion is rather misleading.

Look at the 10 most populous nations in the world (US Census Bureau, 2004), and their relationship to soccer:
1. China, 1.3b .......a potential power, to be sure, but only once a World Cup participant...I honestly don't know where the sport ranks in popularity these days... didn't make final stages for 2006 qualifying
2. India, 1.1b........never played in a World Cup; the sport ranks far behind cricket and field hockey... finished way behind Oman for second place in opening stage WC06 qualifying.
3. USA, 293m.......you know the story
4. Indonesia, 238m......Soccer can't match badminton in popularity; nation's never reached World Cup... didn't come close to reaching final stage of '06 qualiying
5. Brazil, 184m......the global power
6. Pakistan, 159m....went winless in 2002 qualifying... never made World Cup... lost to Kyrgystan in prelims for '06... cricket and field hockey reign supreme
7. Russia, 144m.....the sport's very popular there, but is it bigger than hockey?
8. Bangladesh, 144m.....Never made the World Cup ... ousted in first round by Tajikistan for 06 ... a cricket nation foremost
9. Nigeria, 137m....an excellent footballing nation
10. Japan, 127m....Essentially in the same boat as the US -- there's a pro league, but it's not king, and the national team is very good, but not great.

Now, I realize that international success isn't the only barometer of the sport's popularity. I'm guessing that Man U and Champions League are much bigger stories in all nine of these countries than they are in America. But is it fair to say that in eight of the 10 nations listed, soccer isn't the No. 1 sport? Seven? Six?

The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think we're quite as "exceptionalist" as others might believe. We've resisted soccer to a greater degree than most nations, but I wouldn't go so far to suggest that "the rest of the world" is totally football-mad, while the US is immune.


First let me say....quality post. Really!

And now to take exception with your exceptionalist argument:)

Whether or not these countries play it more or less than the U.S. or another sport doesn't really relate necessarily to exceptionalism. The thing that sets us apart is the pure number that hate the sport and wrap it's definition in some "them vs us" mentality. And the propoganda against the sport. To even a person who has no opinion on the sport, if you ask them about our game, the words you will hear are without fail: foreign, hooligan and boring.

Xenophobia isn't the right word, but it's the first word that comes to mind as Chuck might say.

So how does that compare with these other nations? I really doubt there is some "jim rome" closet-mo in Mumbai spewing filth at football. But then again, I could be completely bat-******** crazy (and I am). So it could be on par with the U.S in any or all of these. I don't know and would love to hear from people from those areas about the level of love/hate/indifference. Because that is where we probably stand apart.

[Beez]

You're definitely right to an extent. There's a hostility toward the sport in this country that probably doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. I believe, however, that such hostility is on the wane -- I see less of it in every younger generation. The sense I get is that people 35-and-under don't have the type of antipathy for the game that you see in older Americans. The younger crowd grew up with the game, either playing it, watching classmates play it, or watching either the World Cup or, occasionally, MLS.

That doesn't mean all these young adults love the sport, but at worst, I think most respect it from afar. Apathy may not be ideal, but it's better than antipathy and disdain.

The other aspect of exceptionalism worth noting is that the sheer abundance of American pro sports makes us different from the rest of the world. Most nations don't have the type of league that can match the spectacle or quality of the EPL, Serie A or Bundesliga, so it's natural that those leagues are hugely popular throughout the world. We have four leagues that are indisputably the best in the world in their respective sports, not to mention college hoop and football, which are tremendous spectacles. If we can't be bothered to care about Crystal Palace's relegation battle or even the Glazer controversy, I think we've got a decent excuse.

[Dominique Rocheteau]

7. Russia, 144m.....the sport's very popular there, but is it bigger than hockey?


Soccer and basketball are both bigger than hockey there.

[Khansingh]

True. I knew a Russian guy and he said that hockey just fills the winter months between soccer seasons. Though, I'm sure that the highest-profile Russian athletes are hockey players. Well, male athletes anyway. This is probably also the case in Sweden and the Czech Republic.

Off the top of my head, soccer is not the most popular sport in the following countries (in no particular order):

Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Canada, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Ireland, and the United States.

Unrelated, but I work in the sporting memorablia business and I've often noticed that women, for the most part, know very little about sports. But I've also discovered that this is not common of women outside the US.

[PsychedelicCeltic]

Soccer is BY FAR the most popular sport in South Africa. White South Africans just like rugby, but they dominate the media so there's a skewed viewpoint. But soccer is the sport of black South Africa which is 85% of the population.

You can replace it with Wales, though.

[PsychedelicCeltic]

I'm going to put in a good word for baseball here.

It is and it isn't. Football makes more money and (I'm guessing) March Madness is bigger TV. But it is part of the American cultural fabric.

People get all upset about the steroid scandals because it's baseball. We're bombarded with the Red Sox. If it was any other sport, there is no talk about a curse and the Red Sox are just a decent franchise that hadn't been able to win the big one.
Football doesn't really make more money. For all the blunderbuss about how football is far more popular, the leagues actually pull in the same amount of revenue per annum.

I don't see baseball not being our "national pastime" in my lifetime. That doesn't mean it's the most popular or relevant team sport. It does mean that it is part and parcel of our culture and idiom.

I've yet to meet a foreigner that really gets what it is to be American that hasn't mastered a rudimentary understanding and appreciation for baseball.
Yep. In a way, it's like cricket (except baseball is far more popular in America than Cricket is in Britain). Cricket is vital to understanding the British character, and is the most typically English of all the sports played in Britain, even if it's not the most popular.

Except baseball is far closer to American football in popularity than cricket to football.

Which sport sells the most tickets and puts the most butts in seats? In the U.S., at least?

I don't know the answer, it could be NASCAR. But, MLB beats out NFL, NBA, etc. See http://www.kenn.com/sports/.

MLB, pretty clearly. 60 million people a year.

One also has to note that there is also currently an enormous growth in minor league baseball, with leagues being set up constantly.

[Fohlen61]

Soccer is BY FAR the most popular sport in South Africa. White South Africans just like rugby, but they dominate the media so there's a skewed viewpoint. But soccer is the sport of black South Africa which is 85% of the population.

You can replace it with Wales, though.

Really?!? That's cool info. I would also have assumed the rugby was more popular. I guess you can't always believe what you see in the papers (not that I've read about SA sports much).