Ligue 2 attendence vs Serie B attendence

[SportBoy333]

I was surprised to see that Ligue 2 is trailing Serie B in average attendence per game by only less than 300 people. I would have thought Serie B would at least be a couple thousand per game ahead of Ligue 2. Here are the stats. Im not sure how current they are though.

http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/current/avefra.htm

Ligue 2 2004-2005
No.
Club
Average
Games
vs '04
Highest

1
AS Nancy-Lorraine
10.934
16
71,8%
13.565

2
En Avant Guingamp
10.210
15
-30,6%
16.669

3
CS Sedan-Ardennes
9.624
16
-2,1%
18.628

4
FC Lorient BS
8.766
15
10,3%
14.255

5
Stade Brestois '29
7.310
15
38,0%
9.773

6
ES Troyes Aube-Champagne
7.282
14
16,3%
16.197

7
Le Mans UC 72
6.842
15
-46,2%
8.212

8
Amiens SCF
6.655
14
-15,6%
11.152

9
Montpellier-Hérault SC
6.647
16
-44,5%
16.303

10
Le Havre AC
6.563
14
-20,2%
8.752

11
La Berrichonne de Châteauroux
6.501
15
-0,6%
10.627

12
Stade de Reims
5.763
15
9,8%
8.003

13
Clermont Foot Auvergne
4.925
14
-18,6%
6.397

14
Grenoble Foot '38
4.694
15
-9,7%
6.868

15
Stade Lavallois Mayenne FC
4.688
16
21,9%
6.973

16
SCO Angers
4.625
15
-15,9%
8.138

17
Dijon FCO
4.365
15
60,6%
6.000

18
Chamois Niortais FC
4.166
14
-6,8%
7.508

19
FC Gueugnon
3.659
15
-5,7%
4.394

20
US Créteil-Lusitanos
1.740
13
-11,5%
2.306

.
Total
6.358

-4,6%
18.628

http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/current/aveita.htm

Serie B 2004-2005
No.
Club
Average
Games
vs '04
Highest

1
Genoa C & FC 1893
20.280
15
16,9%
30.880

2
Hellas Verona FC
11.169
15
4,7%
15.806

3
Torino Calcio
9.920
15
0,9%
18.693

4
CC Catania
9.291
14
-8,7%
13.386

5
Salernitana Sport
7.532
15
-28,1%
12.666

6
AC Cesena 1940
7.496
16
17,3%
11.952

7
Modena FC 1912
7.265
15
-53,1%
10.955

8
Vicenza Calcio 1902
7.163
15
-0,1%
8.584

9
US Catanzaro 1929
7.070
15
-1,8%
9.650

10
Piacenza FC
6.935
15
32,4%
7.749

11
AC Perugia 1905
6.482
15
-41,3%
8.344

12
US Triestina
5.969
15
-24,5%
6.697

13
AC Arezzo 1923
5.562
15
4,3%
9.083

14
Ascoli Calcio 1898
5.270
14
-11,6%
7.065

15
Ternana Calcio
4.447
15
-48,6%
14.858

16
FC Crotone Calcio 1956
4.042
16
14,4%
6.428

17
Bari AS
3.839
15
-42,0%
4.839

18
Treviso FC 1909
3.468
15
1,4%
7.021

19
Empoli FC 1920
3.286
15
-55,2%
4.423

20
Pescara Calcio
3.017
16
-37,0%
4.916

21
Venezia AC 1907
2.422
15
-13,2%
4.504

22
UC Albinoleffe 1998
1.857
14
-24,4%
3.529

.
Total
6.530

-32,8%
30.880

So as you can see there Serie B teams are average 6,530 total per game while Ligue 1 is at 6,358 per game. That is a very close gap and much closer than I had expected. Serie A is averaging around 5,000 more per match than Ligue 1 so its surprising to see that the gap is much closer in the 2nd divisons of both countries. The Spanish 2nd division by the way is ahead of both Ligue 2 and Serie B they are averaging more than 7,000 per match.

[iougs]

so what's the conclusion ???

where is fishy-

[SportBoy333]

The conclusion is that Ligue 2 is doing pretty well in attendence when compared to Italy's Serie B.

[Montréal United]

The conclusion is that Ligue 2 is doing pretty well in attendence when compared to Italy's Serie B.

The average is holding up well since losing the 20,000+ Les Verts brought last year hurts... but then losing the precious few who bother cheering for Istres probably compensates.

[SportBoy333]

If you took all the teams in Serie B and added up the populations of all the cities they play it I bet it would be a lot higher than if you did the same thing for Ligue 2.

[Forgeron]

The major problem this year is that L2 matches have been schelued on Friday and that's why attendances have been so bad.

[SportBoy333]

Attendence is only slightly down from last year.

http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/attnfra.htm

2000 5,692 avg.
2001 5,046 avg.
2002 5,514 avg.
2003 6,150 avg.
2004 6,663 avg.
2005 6,358 avg.(so far)

Italy is supposed to be a bigger football country than France is so to be only less than -300 from them right now is pretty good. Last year Serie B averaged over 3,000 more than Ligue 2 did and this year its much closer.
I know part of the reason the gap is much closer this year is that teams that had high averages last year like Palermo and Firorentina got promoted to Serie A this year but its still fun to compare. A lot of this stuff does depend on bigger clubs who have a lot of fans weather they drop down or go up.

[sl7vk]

I think a more applicable stat would be league 2 attendance vs Serie A attendance. Or Nancy vs Juventus. Both would be very close! :) Italian attendance is miserable, and I think a large part of that is terrible facilities. A lot of these Italian clubs don't even play at soccer specific stadiums. France has done a great job updating their facilities and using the World Cup to rally support. These statistics don't strike me as shocking. Allez Nancy!

http://www.asnl.net/images/stadepicot1.jpg

[sl7vk]

Here is the perfect example to outline my point.

Average attendance-

Juventus (leading Serie A) 24.914

FC Nantes Atlantique 29.704

Now I think Nantes is a great soccer town and all, but seriously? Italian football fans are *****.

[Papa Bouba Diop]

For fun, i omitted the Corsican teams as well as Istres and the avg is 23,780.

[SportBoy333]

The unfortunate thing is that Ajaccio is probably gonna stay up while Caen,who have great support, is gonna go down.

[sl7vk]

The Corsican clubs are a disaster. Can't they just start their own Championat. :) Nancy will replace Caen's support next year. Troyes are well supported, but my only concern is Le Mans. Too bad Guingamp can't get back up to the top flight.

[SportBoy333]

Le Mans had great support when they were in Ligue 1 last season. They averaged over 12,500 per game and their stadium doesnt hold much more than that. I read that they want to build a new 28,000 seat stadium. The Corsican teams are fine in Ligue 2 thats where I'd rather see them.

[Marsiglia29]

apparamant le future stade du Mans va ressembler a celui de Bolton

http://www.stadiumguide.com/reebok.htm

[sl7vk]

apparamant le future stade du Mans va ressembler a celui de Bolton

http://www.stadiumguide.com/reebok.htm

Nice facility. The best part will be that it won't be in Bolton. Yuck...


http://www.stadiumguide.com/havre.htm

[SportBoy333]

I think Le Mans, France and Bolton, England are similar sized cities so it would make sense that Le Mans are trying to copy them.

[RandyNA74]

Here is the perfect example to outline my point.

Average attendance-

Juventus (leading Serie A) 24.914

FC Nantes Atlantique 29.704

Now I think Nantes is a great soccer town and all, but seriously? Italian football fans are *****.
First off, you can save the insults.

Secondly, using Juve as an example of Italian attendance would be like using Corsica as an example of what France is like. Juve has notoriously bad attendance and everyone in Italy knows it. In case you care to take the topic further, check out this (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153963) thread. Care to compare Nantes' attendance to, say, Milan's?

Thirdly, you didn't do a very good job of outlining your point, although I woudl definitely agree that Italian facilities are currently, uh, crap.

[prk166]

Italy is supposed to be a bigger football country than France is so to be only less than -300 from them right now is pretty good. Last year Serie B averaged over 3,000 more than Ligue 2 did and this year its much closer.
I know part of the reason the gap is much closer this year is that teams that had high averages last year like Palermo and Firorentina got promoted to Serie A this year but its still fun to compare. A lot of this stuff does depend on bigger clubs who have a lot of fans weather they drop down or go up.

THat is one way of measuring things. I would be curious to see where clubs in Italy are located and how many clubs there are. That can impact numbers.

Also, the fans may be more concentrated in the big teams so that once you get to medium and smaller clubs, there's more of a drop off. For example, I thought Juve had a lot of supporters in the south. Southerners would move up to Turin for work when they were young (auto plants, et al), become Juventus fans, and then later in life move back home (back down south).

[sl7vk]

First off, you can save the insults.

Secondly, using Juve as an example of Italian attendance would be like using Corsica as an example of what France is like. Juve has notoriously bad attendance and everyone in Italy knows it. In case you care to take the topic further, check out this (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153963) thread. Care to compare Nantes' attendance to, say, Milan's?

Thirdly, you didn't do a very good job of outlining your point, although I woudl definitely agree that Italian facilities are currently, uh, crap.

My comments were light hearted, but your reaction only reinforces my point. Comparing Nantes to Milan? That doesn't make too much sense.....
Population
Nantes 400,000
Milan 1.6 Million

Not to mention that their facility is only half the size of Milan's. The Del Alpi holds 71,000, so 25,000 average attendance IS s****. In terms of league attendance I would rank the European nations as follows-

England
Spain
Germany
France
Italy

I like Serie A as much as the next guy, but every game I see is accompanied by thousands of empty seats. Not the most passionate environment.

[RandyNA74]

My comments were light hearted, but your reaction only reinforces my point. Comparing Nantes to Milan? That doesn't make too much sense.....
Population
Nantes 400,000
Milan 1.6 Million

Not to mention that their facility is only half the size of Milan's. The Del Alpi holds 71,000, so 25,000 average attendance IS s****. In terms of league attendance I would rank the European nations as follows-

England
Spain
Germany
France
Italy

I like Serie A as much as the next guy, but every game I see is accompanied by thousands of empty seats. Not the most passionate environment.
OK, let's make this clear for everybody.

When making "lighthearted" comments that include words that could easily be thought of as being insults, etc. please make it clear by including some sort of smiley or whatever. There is a ton of literature out there discussing how difficult it is in the modern era of email etc. to perceive the exact tone of someone's words based only on what is written in an email (or BS post...). And in any case, try to refrain from using swear words. Not trying to be a puritan, but it tends to be BS policy...

And my comment on comparing Nantes to Milan was also meant to be "lighthearted." Of course the two cities aren't similar in size...

If your point is that Nantes is better in terms of attendance than Juve, than you are stating the obvious. In addition, your comments on the relatively poor attendance of Serie A these days do have validity, though I would argue that many clubs out there, such as Palermo for example, aren't having many attendance related issues, unlike Juve. But again, Italian stadiums are old and in disrepair, not to mention authorities are letting the ultras take over, thus scaring away the well-to-do fans who these days prefer to sit at home and watch games on TV.

The only thing that really annoyed me in your post was the apparent attack on Italian fans. Fine, it was lighthearted. My mistake. But it's easy to see where my reaction came from based on what - and how - you wrote. Please be a little more clear in the future.