Is the standard for greatness slipping? This modern era the poorest yet?

[Dark Savante]

We're 5 years into this decade now and I can think of only 2players possibly 3 who have established themselves as something special in the past 5years.

When you think of each era by decade you can pull out any number of absolute all-time greats and many special players. Try it. for each decade think of 10 super players. It is is very easy. 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's all birthed absolute stars.

Which stars can you say have come to light in this decade so far? Possibly Nesta, Nedved, Shevchenko and Ronaldinho at a stretch? But how do these guys compare to what has gone before them just in the 90's?

Granted, the decade is still young and we've only had one WC so far and there are a few really special talents emerging that I can see (Rooney, Robben, Robinho and Adriano all look like they are going to be very, very special players) but the players in their mid to late 20's how many of them are anything special? And how many of them hadn't already come to prominence in the 90's?

For the first time in a long time I can't even see a worlds best player out there. Nobody is head and shoulders above the competition these days and I can't think of many who will be thought of as legends when they hand up their boots. Just as there is no outstanding teams (Milan are the only one who can even push for that label) this decade there seems to be no truly outstanding players either well, none that are a product of this Millenium anyway.

What is going on? Is the focus on athleticism and rigid tactical deployment stifling the talent or am I being harsh in my assesment. I'm watching this decade so far and I'm seriously not impressed. 5years into any of the past decades and we were witnessing huge numbers of legends in the making. imo this is the poorest crop of players I've seen play the game since I've been alive.

[Walter3000]

We're 5 years into this decade now



Give it time. also you said not many players are head and shoulders above the rest.....maybe because "the rest" contains more quality in its depth these days.

[Dark Savante]

More opinions surely?

11best, I dont think 'the rest' have caught up, myself. If you are peerless you will always stand out.

[The Potter]

I also think the number of great players have dropped. Lets say a player peaks between the ages of 26-30 (give or take) you currently have players who are in peak Schevchenko, Henry, Nesta, and Totti as the biggest. But 5 years ago you had Zidane, Figo, Rivaldo, Giggs, Keane, , Ronaldo and Raul (I know some of them were younger but you get my point) . And in the near future you will have Rooney, Kaka, Adriano, Reyes , Robinio, Fabregas and Rhonaldinio.

I don't think the level of greatness is slipping I just think the number of great players in there peak is currently less than in the past and there seems there will be more in the future.

[CowbellFever]

How many superstars where there in 1995? I'll venture to say, the late 80's until 1995 was one of the worst time periods in soccer, ever. The superstars back then were Roberto Baggio, Romario, Ruud Gullit and others. The days of Platini and others were long gone during this time period.

Great players gain their greatness from historical perpective and trophies. So far there has been 1 World Cup and 1 Euro and only 4 ECLs. This decade will have superstars just like any other.

[Dark Savante]

How many superstars where there in 1995? I'll venture to say, the late 80's until 1995 was one of the worst time periods in soccer, ever. The superstars back then were Roberto Baggio, Romario, Ruud Gullit and others. The days of Platini and others were long gone during this time period.

Are you joking :confused: There were a lottttt more than that!


Great players gain their greatness from historical perpective and trophies. So far there has been 1 World Cup and 1 Euro and only 4 ECLs. This decade will have superstars just like any other.
In any other decade lots of legends were being or had been made by the halfway point. Others came further along but still, the current crop are poor, or, made their name in the 90's and not now.

[Perchik]

DS, why don't you actually make a list of players that became great in 1980-85, 1990-95, and 2000-05, so that at least we know how biased you are. :rolleyes:
Because I'm not quite sure, what, according to you, defines greatness? And unless you specify the criteria, the whole argument is pointless.

[argentine soccer fan]

I don't think I would agree with your last point, D.S. It is easy and fashionable to blame the modern game, with its emphasis on athleticism and speed and pressure all over the field, for the lack of superstars. But I don't buy it. I agree that there don't seem to be as many great ones today, but I think it is likely a bit of a fluke. We cannot expect every era to mathematically have the same number of great ones. Some will have more than others, and over time it will even out.

I look at the great ones today, and some succeed by defying the modern game while others succeed by embracing it.

For example, Ronaldinho is a throwback to the past, a 'playground' player who beats you with skill and guile and creativity rather than athleticism. He is the type of player who defies tactical schemes, who beats strength and speed because he can do the unexpected.

I would argue that there are many players in his mold, at the present time, and they keep coming. It is just that right now the other players of his characteristics just haven't done it well enough or consistently enough to be called great ones. Perhaps they haven't become great because they don't have the mindset, the hunger, which is needed to become one of the best. But they are there. (A player like Riquelme comes to mind, He has the skills to be a great one, and if he can show a bit more heart, perhaps he can still become one.)

I'd say the evidence so far is that no matter how much you speed up the game and how much you emphasize athleticism and tactics, we will still continue to get the skillful players. Players are coming up like Robinho, for example, who are not top athletes and yet have the potential to be among the great ones of all time. I think that we will always have this type of players, who will excell because of their great ball skills, creativity and intelligence, regardless of how big, strong or fast their opponents are.

On the flip side, Let's look at a player like Nedved. He is an example of how a player can excel while being a product of modern football. He is the guy who represents what today's game wants players to be. He is athletic, he is strong, he is fast, he is tactically disciplined, and he trains religiously in order to stay in top shape. Basically the guy is an example of everything which some fans will say is ruining the game. And yet he also has great skills, and so he is able to stand out among his peers who also are also great athletes with great strength and speed and who stay at top shape. He is proof that you can be a great athlete by today's standard and also be a great football player.

So, my view is that the athleticism and tactics are not stifling the game. The great players will transcend athleticism and tactics. Some will stand out by outplaying and outsmarting the athletes, and others will themselves be top athletes who have greater skill than other athletes. And I suspect that we will see more players stand out before the decade is over.

[lanman]

I don't think that the number of truly great players has ever dropped, it's just that as time progresses the overall standard of the average player has improved so much that the best players do not stand out as much.

[Excape Goat]

Great players gain their greatness from historical perpective and trophies. So far there has been 1 World Cup and 1 Euro and only 4 ECLs. This decade will have superstars just like any other.


True. People did not recognize Zidane&s standings among the greatest before he won the WC in 1998. Legends are bulit with successes. The current corps of superstars mentioned here on this thread -- Nedved, Totti, Henry, Schevchenko and Ronaldinho -- have not won anything of their own. With exception of Shevchenko, they did not even do anything outside of their domestic league(Henry's WC and Euro titles were credited to Zidane; Ronaldinho's WC titles were Ronaldo and Ribvaldo).

[Dark Savante]

DS, why don't you actually make a list of players that became great in 1980-85, 1990-95, and 2000-05, so that at least we know how biased you are. :rolleyes:
Because I'm not quite sure, what, according to you, defines greatness? And unless you specify the criteria, the whole argument is pointless.
Bias is a very strange word to use. What is there to be biased about? Lets take the 1985-1990 first:

Maradona
Ruud Gullit
M Laudrup
Matthaus
Lineker
Brehme
Careca
Van Basten
H.Sanchez
Koeman
Rush

I will stop there as after that I'd have to do some research on crossover points in the decade which I can't be bothered to do because that list alone poo-poo's on whats out there as a product of this millenium for the most part.

1990-1995

Romario
Rijkaard
Baresi
Maldini
Rivaldo
Baggio
Stoichkov
Batistuta
Klinsmann
Dunga
Butraegueno
Gascoigne
Donadoni
Hagi
Haessler
Schifo
Tassotti
Mauro Silva
B Laudrup

1995-2000

Ronaldo
Suker
Redondo
Keane
Weah
Del Piero
Desailly
Thuram
Schmeichel
Bergkamp
Cafu
R Carlos
Sammer
Davids
Giggs
Vieiri
Shearer
Hierro
Zidane
Figo
J Zanetti


Seperate the all-timers from those who were just better then their peers yourself. While you're at it put up a comparable list for this decade if you think I'm being 'biased' not many players are truly standing out from the crowd like in times gone by. Nearly all those players above are on the wane now and the group coming up behind them are for the most part sub-standard. Adriano, Kaka, Robinho, Rooney, Robben, Terry look like ones from the next generation who are going to stand out so far..but they aren't the here and now. The here now is players like:

Nedved, Shevchenko. Nesta, Ronaldinho as ones who are clearly going to be great..then comes whom? How many outstanding players do you see out there?

[scorpio81]

2000-2005

Gerrard
Viera
Ballack (all three are better than somebody like redondo and mauro silva)
Ruud (achieved more than Del Piero, imo)
Lucio (if J Zanetti makes it here, then so does Lucio)
Helguera
Nedved, Shevchenko. Nesta, Ronaldinho
Kahn
Henry

im sure there are man others...

but i get what youre saying, primarily because the last two Majors (WC2002, EURO2004) were dominated by underdogs and upstarts, so its hard to give them credit for JUST their tournament performances...
hence, i resort to looking at overall performances (ie, not restricted to the major internationals)

as far as the future goes, you have a superb crop of youngsters (below 25) imo, who will all become legends in time... cos thats really what essentially makes a legend - Time!

[Dark Savante]

I don't think that the number of truly great players has ever dropped, it's just that as time progresses the overall standard of the average player has improved so much that the best players do not stand out as much.
Isn't this a contradiction? How can one be with out the other? Or are you saying the 'average' was poorer in the past then it is now? Wouldn't that lessen the achievements of percieved legends if that's the case also?

[Dark Savante]

I don't think I would agree with your last point, D.S. It is easy and fashionable to blame the modern game, with its emphasis on athleticism and speed and pressure all over the field, for the lack of superstars. But I don't buy it. I agree that there don't seem to be as many great ones today, but I think it is likely a bit of a fluke. We cannot expect every era to mathematically have the same number of great ones. Some will have more than others, and over time it will even out.

I look at the great ones today, and some succeed by defying the modern game while others succeed by embracing it.

For example, Ronaldinho is a throwback to the past, a 'playground' player who beats you with skill and guile and creativity rather than athleticism. He is the type of player who defies tactical schemes, who beats strength and speed because he can do the unexpected.

I would argue that there are many players in his mold, at the present time, and they keep coming. It is just that right now the other players of his characteristics just haven't done it well enough or consistently enough to be called great ones. Perhaps they haven't become great because they don't have the mindset, the hunger, which is needed to become one of the best. But they are there. (A player like Riquelme comes to mind, He has the skills to be a great one, and if he can show a bit more heart, perhaps he can still become one.)

I'd say the evidence so far is that no matter how much you speed up the game and how much you emphasize athleticism and tactics, we will still continue to get the skillful players. Players are coming up like Robinho, for example, who are not top athletes and yet have the potential to be among the great ones of all time. I think that we will always have this type of players, who will excell because of their great ball skills, creativity and intelligence, regardless of how big, strong or fast their opponents are.

On the flip side, Let's look at a player like Nedved. He is an example of how a player can excel while being a product of modern football. He is the guy who represents what today's game wants players to be. He is athletic, he is strong, he is fast, he is tactically disciplined, and he trains religiously in order to stay in top shape. Basically the guy is an example of everything which some fans will say is ruining the game. And yet he also has great skills, and so he is able to stand out among his peers who also are also great athletes with great strength and speed and who stay at top shape. He is proof that you can be a great athlete by today's standard and also be a great football player.

So, my view is that the athleticism and tactics are not stifling the game. The great players will transcend athleticism and tactics. Some will stand out by outplaying and outsmarting the athletes, and others will themselves be top athletes who have greater skill than other athletes. And I suspect that we will see more players stand out before the decade is over.
I'll get back to this a bit later :)

[Dark Savante]

Best players those era.

1985: Zico, Rummenigge, Lineker, Socrates, Falcao, Boniek, Passarella, Platini, Butragueño, Schuster, Rush, Altobelli, Elkjær, Robson, Scifo, Maradona

1990: Gascoigne, Matthaues, Klinsmann, Baggio, Vialli, Prosinecki, Zenga, Gullit, van Basten, Rijkaard, Baresi, Brehme, Maldini, Preud’homme, Stojkovic, papin, Laudrup.

1995: Matthaues, Klinsmann, Gazza, Romario, Dunga, Beberto, Baggio, Vialli, Barsei, Maldini, Schmeichel, Sammer, Koeman, Stoichkov, Desailly, Weah, Del Piero, Batigoal, Cantona, Savicevic, Hagi.

2000: beckham, Zidane, Rivaldo, Batigoal, Shevchenko, Figo, Vieri, Effenberg, Raul, Keane, Davids, Roberto Carlos, Raul, Kahn, Del Piero.

Your lists are schewed. Which is what I avoided with mine. Figo was at his best in the 90's as was Del Piero and some others. I should have added Effenberg to the 90's in my list but I'm sure people get the point of what I am saying.

Ballack is one IU should say is 'representing' the now well shouldn't have missed him out.

[Dark Savante]

2000-2005

Gerrard
Viera
Ballack (all three are better than somebody like redondo and mauro silva)


Dude, are you shitting me? :eek:


Ballack is one I should have added to the here and now however.


Ruud (achieved more than Del Piero, imo)
Lucio (if J Zanetti makes it here, then so does Lucio)
Helguera

Ruud's another one and Kahn. The other 2, nope.



but i get what youre saying, primarily because the last two Majors (WC2002, EURO2004) were dominated by underdogs and upstarts, so its hard to give them credit for JUST their tournament performances...
hence, i resort to looking at overall performances (ie, not restricted to the major internationals)

as far as the future goes, you have a superb crop of youngsters (below 25) imo, who will all become legends in time... cos thats really what essentially makes a legend - Time!
In the 90's before his injury Del Piero looked like he was going to do good things..he was poor at the WC and after that his injuries can be blamed on what he became I guess. Anyway, my point is that if you name the best 5 in each position right now you're going to struggle in comparison to what was bursting through in years gone by. Who are the top 5 strikers for example? How do they match up to the ones from any other period.. I guess the late 80's was pretty poor as a whole for strikers..

[lanman]

Isn't this a contradiction? How can one be with out the other? Or are you saying the 'average' was poorer in the past then it is now? Wouldn't that lessen the achievements of percieved legends if that's the case also?

The average standard was almost certainly lower say 50 years ago (and that's just through training methods and lifestyle), but in no way does this diminish most of the achievements of great players - it simply means that they were more prominant 50 years ago than they are today. Factor in tactical advances and especially the vastly increased exposure and it becomes easier to analyse the best players and counter them somewhat. Would the greats of 50 years ago be revered as they are if they played today? Probably not, but that does not diminish their abilities, merely their reputations.
That brings us on to how we look at "greatness" - is it ability or reputation. In terms of ability (how I would judge the great players) there has been very little change of the top say 0.1%. In terms of reputation there has certainly been a drop - no-one can dominate play today like a Pele or a Di Stefano for well over a decade (the increased tactical approach and exposure has reduced that) and as such players are not looked at by the casual observer in the same awe.

[scorpio81]

helguera won 3 (or is it 2) CLs, and his contribution can be easily overlooked...
i think he should be there...

but, thats just one player and I think youre right to a large extent...

i think its evident in the reality that we're in 2005 but the great players from the past 5 years (95-00) are still starting at top clubs around the world...

Ronaldo
Keane
Del Piero
Thuram
Bergkamp
Cafu
R Carlos
Giggs
Vieiri
Zidane
Figo
J Zanetti

I would also add Lizarazu and Seedorf to this list

quite sad, unfortunately...

[Dark Savante]

The average standard was almost certainly lower say 50 years ago (and that's just through training methods and lifestyle), but in no way does this diminish most of the achievements of great players - it simply means that they were more prominant 50 years ago than they are today. Factor in tactical advances and especially the vastly increased exposure and it becomes easier to analyse the best players and counter them somewhat. Would the greats of 50 years ago be revered as they are if they played today? Probably not, but that does not diminish their abilities, merely their reputations.
That brings us on to how we look at "greatness" - is it ability or reputation. In terms of ability (how I would judge the great players) there has been very little change of the top say 0.1%. In terms of reputation there has certainly been a drop - no-one can dominate play today like a Pele or a Di Stefano for well over a decade (the increased tactical approach and exposure has reduced that) and as such players are not looked at by the casual observer in the same awe.
I don't get what you're saying. :(

Is Nesta not the best CB in the world?
Is Shev not the only one delivering on all stages presented to him in terms of goal rate?
Is Ronaldinho not showing up for every big game his club are in?

etc etc. They are shackled by the tactics you mention yet they stand out from the crowd. If you're good enough you'll stand out as you can't deny great techniques and minds. The player's I mentioned from five years ago are only slipping now because of age not because of tactical advancements..so?

I miss arguing with friends about who is the best playmaker or whatever because these days it's blindingly obvious with not much else seeming to be appearing.

You can look at certain players and it is obvious they will be something really special...Robinho springs to mind for me... 5years ago the number of talents I could say that for seems to be a lot more than I can do now? If at 34 Cafu can still be commonly touted as the best RB..where are his replacements? etc. I am talking about the nows btw not the future ones who are the next era. Do you get what I a mean?

[The Potter]

Dude, are you shitting me? :eek:


Ballack is one I should have added to the here and now however.






So you think Ballack has been the better player over the past 5 years than Viera :confused: Or that this current moment.