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Frankfurt Blue
13 Apr 2005, 04:33 AM
An interesting article that I was sent:

Bayern Munich general manager Uli Hoeness warns of a bleak future for German
teams in European competition

Kevin McCarra
Tuesday April 12, 2005
The Guardian

Uli Hoeness has thrown in the towel. So far as he is concerned it is all
over for Bayern Munich. The club's general manager was not conceding the
Champions League quarter-final to Chelsea tonight; his fatalism was much
more severe than that. The gloom descended over the long-term outlook for
German clubs in European competition.
Hoeness's aim was to warn of the financial disadvantages of sides in the
Bundesliga and he calculated that, for example, Juventus will have almost
?300m more to spend over the next five years than Bayern. He was trying to
highlight the gulf in revenue from ticket sales and, above all, television
rights but in the process Hoeness could not avoid illustrating how
entrancingly different Germany is from all the other nations in football.
Even if it does stand in the centre of the continent, it is a place apart.
Bayern are the only Bundesliga side left in Europe and Werder Bremen, the
domestic title-holders, were hurled out of the Champions League by Lyon on a
10-2 aggregate, yet the sport is not in disgrace. Germany now has the
highest league attendances of any country and Bayern's new Allianz Stadium,
which opens next month with a 66,000 capacity, is sold out until 2010.
Audiences are lured by a vividly competitive Bundesliga and by prices that
start at around ?7. The culture of the sport makes it barren ground for most
commercial initiatives. Pay-TV coverage is, for example, offered by Premiere
but, despite improvement in its overall position, it still posted losses of
?57m in the most recent accounts. Germans are notorious, so far as
businessmen are concerned, for their reluctance to subscribe to cable
channels.

Football spectators feel fulfilled by the ritual that has them going to a
game on a Saturday and then heading home to watch Bundesliga highlights
shown by the state broadcaster ARD at 6.15pm. With football readily
available in a quantity and at an hour so suitable to the public, Premiere
are handicapped. Any effort to alter those arrangements would be resented
and resisted throughout the land.

There are, however, some marked consequences and the pay-per-view rights to
football are, at about ?210m-a-year, worth half of those in, say, France.
While many of us pore over satellite coverage of games from La Liga and
Serie A, the Bundesliga's overseas appeal is of offbeat character. Its
fixtures make for primetime viewing in China, where the German Klaus
Schlappner was once a celebrated figure as coach of the national team.

That is no help to Hoeness since China, for all its size, is a niche market
so far as television money is concerned. The general manager also
appreciates that he is going against the grain of German football in his
yearning for a more commercial environment. There are no counterparts to
Roman Abramovich or Silvio Berlusconi in a land where clubs are generally
owned by their members. Bayern did turn themselves into a limited company
but that was so Adidas could take a 10% stake. The remaining shares are not
traded.

Entrepreneurs got a bad name, too, because of the reckless spending of
Borussia Dortmund. The club floated itself on the stock exchange and,
despite an immense following in the Ruhr, has since had to sell its stadium
and lease it back on poor terms. It also appears that Dortmund, in the same
fashion, are no longer the real owners of players such as Tomas Rosicky, who
is sometimes claimed to be a target for Tottenham.

With careful budgeting essential, the focus through out the country is on
home-grown talent. That is good news for the hosts of the World Cup, since
youngsters such as Bayern's Bastian Schweinsteiger gather experience, but it
is of no avail in marketing a Bundesliga that is short on glamour across the
globe.

While German football thrives domestically, the aspirations of clubs like
Bayern are in poor health. For a while Hoeness thought that prudence would
triumph once foreign rivals were consumed by debt. Abramovich, however, has
upset his calculations, not only by pumping unimagined sums into Chelsea but
also, in the process, by raising transfer prices to such an extent that
improvident Marseille could bail themselves out of a crisis by despatching
Didier Drogba to Stamford Bridge for ?24m.

Bayern continue to be a substantial institution but a handful of clubs in
England, Italy and Spain can expect to be far richer. A defeat by Chelsea
tonight would drive home Hoeness's point but the average, contented German
fan may not care in the slightest.

Dead Fingers
13 Apr 2005, 09:23 AM
Sad but mostly true. :mad:

Thanks for sharing. Is it me, or are the Germans being punished for being loyal "go to the stadium" viewers?

TV Revunue???? It's a bitch!

How are ticket prices? Comprable to the rest of Europe?

Frankfurt Blue
13 Apr 2005, 09:28 AM
Sad but mostly true. :mad:

Thanks for sharing. Is it me, or are the Germans being punished for being loyal "go to the stadium" viewers?

TV Revunue???? It's a bitch!

How are ticket prices? Comprable to the rest of Europe?

For going to actual games? Great compared to England. You have to admire the Germans for taking no rip-off nonsense and supporting their clubs directly.
€20 and less as far as I am aware should not be a problem.
Want to watch EPL? GBP30+ :eek:
I know as I have been to see City (seated) this season and Eintracht (which cost me under €10 standing with the purchase of a programme included).

Dead Fingers
13 Apr 2005, 09:45 AM
For going to actual games? Great compared to England. You have to admire the Germans for taking no rip-off nonsense and supporting their clubs directly.
€20 and less as far as I am aware should not be a problem.
Want to watch EPL? GBP30+ :eek:
I know as I have been to see City (seated) this season and Eintracht (which cost me under €10 standing with the purchase of a programme included).

That is cheap....or fair...depending on how you might look at that. Anybody thinking of raising prices? Would there be massive revolts if the prices..say....raised a couple of Euro's?

Frankfurt Blue
13 Apr 2005, 09:48 AM
That is cheap....or fair...depending on how you might look at that. Anybody thinking of raising prices? Would there be massive revolts if the prices..say....raised a couple of Euro's?

In 1995 I used to watch VfB Stuttgart for DM20 seated.
I think if there was a large hike in prices, most fans would vent their fury.
I think prices for football are sensible in Germany, unlike in England.

Dead Fingers
13 Apr 2005, 09:48 AM
What I don't understand - is what seems to different levels of finacial transparency across Europe.. or am I misreading that? I look at teams in Italy and Spain.....and wonder how they could still be in existence.

Conejito
13 Apr 2005, 10:02 AM
Good thing for germany. There is only one reason why attendances in germany have gone up and english attendances have gone down; ticket prices. Commerce is not a dirty word in my book, but it's not holy either and I think something is going the wrong way when people stop visiting the stadiums, football's a people's game.
There's another bad side to it, the english competition is not as competitive as it used to be anymore, only a few teams can win it now.
I personally don't think that's progress.

Frankfurt Blue
13 Apr 2005, 10:04 AM
What I don't understand - is what seems to different levels of finacial transparency across Europe.. or am I misreading that? I look at teams in Italy and Spain.....and wonder how they could still be in existence.

From what I have read, it seems correct what you already believe to be true. Just look at the finances and skullduggery of Real Madrid, just as an example. In England or Germany, such antics would be frowned upon by the governing body and investigated at the very least. Most likely it would be seen as illegal and a Borussia Dortmund situation would arise.
Same in Italy and how the owners seem quite able to fiddle the numbers there too.

It is not an even playing field and the EPL has the advatage of drawing a global audience too.

But it is still a very good standard of football, as Bayern displayed last night. And at those prices, German fans should be more than content.

Frankfurt Blue
13 Apr 2005, 10:06 AM
There's another bad side to it, the english competition is not as competitive as it used to be anymore, only a few teams can win it now. I personally don't think that's progress.

You can apply that argument to many leagues in Europe and possibly wider.

Conejito
13 Apr 2005, 10:15 AM
You can apply that argument to many leagues in Europe and possibly wider

Absolutely, Dutch/scottish competitions have even wider gaps between rich and poor, but they have their own reasons for that. I was comparing current english competition with that of some decades ago. The reason why it is less competitive now, is simply because commercialism has widened the financial gap between clubs.

Frankfurt Blue
13 Apr 2005, 10:21 AM
Absolutely, Dutch/scottish competitions have even wider gaps between rich and poor, but they have their own reasons for that. I was comparing current english competition with that of some decades ago. The reason why it is less competitive now, is simply because commercialism has widened the financial gap between clubs.

In England it's a bit of a myth. Apart from United and Liverpool, it was only the so called bigger clubs who could compete such as Arsenal, Leeds, Spurs....

United and Liverpool have enjoyed a huge fanbase for decades. Chelsea have broken the rule, as did Blackburn briefly, due to a sugar-daddy. United realised they could exploit the plc and sky contract to their advantage, as they were assured of a large fanbase that could only expand.
Most other large clubs, have always been observed as also rans, who have the ability on occasion to compete, but not consistently.

Conejito
13 Apr 2005, 10:30 AM
Might be a bit of myth, but I just don't see a Norwich or Ipswitch happening in english football anymore.

Then again in Holland AZ has been fighting for the title this year, so miracles can always happen.

But my basic point still stands, when wealth is distributed less evenly you have a less competitive league, it's simple logic.

Dead Fingers
13 Apr 2005, 10:36 AM
Has UEFA or the EU weighed in on these issues?

Frankfurt Blue
13 Apr 2005, 10:40 AM
Has UEFA or the EU weighed in on these issues?

That is a good point. They have been investigating the block deals signed by the respective leagues. Unfortunately, this only spells disaster, as the big clubs like United have seen that if they set up their own TV channel (MUTV) and then add in the future the ability to deal exclusively with their club games, the income will be less evenly shared.
The EU was also supposed to be investigating Real Madrid and how they removed their huge debt, as it was said to be illegal under EU rules. Not heard anything since this was in the press some time ago.

Edited to add: Even though I agree in principle with the Bosman Ruling, the EU eliminated a much needed source of revenue for clubs, especially the smaller ones.

Conejito
13 Apr 2005, 10:42 AM
For a while Hoeness thought that prudence would
triumph once foreign rivals were consumed by debt.

Marx is alive!

Dead Fingers
13 Apr 2005, 10:52 AM
That is a good point. They have been investigating the block deals signed by the respective leagues. Unfortunately, this only spells disaster, as the big clubs like United have seen that if they set up their own TV channel (MUTV) and then add in the future the ability to deal exclusively with their club games, the income will be less evenly shared.
The EU was also supposed to be investigating Real Madrid and how they removed their huge debt, as it was said to be illegal under EU rules. Not heard anything since this was in the press some time ago.

I can't believe---well maybe I can----that these teams don't see the long term repercussions of their behavior.

SportBoy333
13 Apr 2005, 11:07 AM
I think German and French teams are in a similar situation. Both have to rely extensively on youth players from their respective countries because they cant buy expensive foriegners like the clubs with the unlimited budgets in the EPL, Serie A and La Liga do. The finances of German and French teams are more strictly controlled by the government than teams in Italy and Spain who can just keep on spending money even if they are in debt and not got relegated for it. Lyon is best French team right now and currently have the highest budget of any French team but their budget is not anywhere close to the budgets of teams like Milan, Inter, Juventus, Barcelona, Manchester Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea. Those teams dont have to pay high employment taxes on players like French teams do and they dont have the governments in those countries closely monitering their clubs finances like in France.

The Old Lady Hertha
13 Apr 2005, 11:57 AM
I think in order for this problem to be solved, Germans must be prepared to swallow a bullet; either a) pay more for tickets and/or b) pay for PPV if they are not prepared to pay for that much for tickets. I think that while Germans are happy about their traditions, they also want to do whats best for their team. Money is what rules in football right now and people know it. I think that German teams are very competitive and they like the balance in their league, but big teams need to arise. It will make the league also more attractive to foreigners as well. As much as I hate big clubs, I think they are inevitable.

Bayern unfortunately, is not big enough, and, with the demise of Borussia Dortmund, there are no real challengers. There a bunch of good teams that in the Spanish or ITalian leagues would be mid-table or worse, like Werder, Hertha, Strutgart, Schalke. What the German league needs is two of these teams to really step it up a notch and become big teams, while lower teams like Kaiserslautern and Wolfsburg become better. But you need money for this, and this, German teams do not have.

aloisius
13 Apr 2005, 12:50 PM
I can't believe---well maybe I can----that these teams don't see the long term repercussions of their behavior.


I don’t see this as an unfair advantage. If Catalonian banks are willing to support Barcelona with credits which are under the market price it’s their right to do so . If they are willing to sponsor the club for emotional and not business reasons, that’ also fine by me.

If clubs are running deficits, they’ll have to pay them back. That is happening already in Italy and their clubs have lost in financial power.

If they don’t have to pay back the money, that means someone has gifted it to them. Just like Roman gives his money to Chelsea. It’s their right to do so.

But an Abramovitch can’t happen in Germany, because clubs are not for sale. You can sponsor them with your money, but only the members chose the management. So no matter how much money you invest you can’t take control of the club and do with it as you please.

Overall , I give credit to the Germans for saying no to further commercialization of the game . It probably costs them success on the euro stage but there are more important things than that.

Conejito
13 Apr 2005, 01:03 PM
I fully agree with that. No room to get moralistic or have false sentiments about Spanish/italian advantage. If france wants their teams to be better, they should do something about their taxes, but they don't cause obviously think the money is better spent elsewhere. If German fans want their teams to getr better they should buy more of that marketing garbage, pay more for tickets etc. I for one hope they choose not to do so.