MLS continues to carry the national team

[Roehl Sybing]

Having watched the last game against Guatemala, I can honestly say that my patience is running very thin with the international contingent of the national team. You know, the ones who are supposed to be better than our domestic players?

It is no coincidence that MLS players happen to be on the field and score the lion's share of goals when the national team finds success. In fact, the US cannot survive without goals from its domestic players. And some of the harshest critics of the US say that is all that it does - survive - against the more prominent countries in the sport. Unfortunately, the consensus seems to be to pack the team with more European-based players, even when it will only make the supposed problem worse.

Looking at any set of numbers based on the results of the national team in the past two years, it should appear to most (obviously not all) that as the impact of MLS on the national team is stronger than ever, the team's international talent - goalkeepers excepted - has not only consistently failed to meet expectations, but have also failed to make a nominal impact.

USA results, 2004-present
2005: 4 wins, 1 loss, GD +6
2004: 8 wins, 1 loss, 6 draws, GD +19
01-06/2004 (to Grenada series): 5 wins, 1 loss, 2 draws, GD +9
07-11/2004 (after Grenada series): 3 wins, 4 draws, GD +10

USA results w/o YA goals
2005: 3 wins, 1 loss, 1 draw (-1W +1D), GD +4 (down 2)
-2 points in WCQ, tied for third with Costa Rica
2004: 8 wins, 2 losses 5 draws (-1D +1L) GD +13 (down 6)
no changes in WCQ
01-06/2004: 5 wins 1 loss 2 draws (no change), GD +9
USA advances to semifinals
07-11/2004: 3 wins 1 loss 3 draws (-1D +1L), GD +10
no changes in WCQ semifinals

USA results w/o MLS goals
*all Beasley and Donovan goals are MLS goals, scored prior to their respective transfers
2005: 1 loss, 4 draws (-4W, +4D), GD -1 (down 7)
-4 points in WCQ final round, 2 points after 3 games, 5th place ahead of TRI on GD
2004: 3 wins, 7 losses, 5 draws (-5W +6L -1D), GD -3 (down 22)
eliminated from WCQ in second round
01-06/2004: 2 wins, 4 losses, 2 draws (-3W +3L), GD -1 (down 10)
1 draw, 1 loss in home and home vs. Grenada, eliminated 1-2 on aggregate
07-11/2004: 1 wins, 3 losses, 3 draws (-2W +3L -1D, -8pts), GD -2 (down 12)
-8 points in WCQ semifinals, 4 points after six games, eliminated

Simply put, while a national team without its top European-based players (i.e. Lewis, Beasley, Bocanegra) would find it harder to garner success, it is no great loss to the player pool; on the other hand, a national team without its domestic players would hardly be in contention for World Cup qualification in the first place.

Based on this, it continues to be a wonder that many US fans clamor for a losing strategy based on provincial insight and traditional misconceptions.

[blech]

***
Based on this, it continues to be a wonder that many US fans clamor for a losing strategy based on provincial insight and traditional misconceptions.

huh? i honestly have no idea what you're trying to say.
a) MLS is contributing to our player development?
b) players should stay in MLS and not go to europe?
c) players in europe should come back and play in MLS?

if it's the first, i don't think that anyone disputes this. if it's the second or third, i don't know that you're argument supports the conclusion. if it's something else, please enlighten us.

[sidefootsitter]

huh? i honestly have no idea what you're trying to say...
It's a Roehl rant. Check out the "is Europe screwing Yanks?" conspiracy thread on the YA board that he started.

[gaucho]

All this really tells me is that our best goal scorers happen to be on MLS clubs at the time they scored their goals. I'm not convinced that is anything but an accident of the fact that our attacking players are more likely to be in MLS right now.

I think that for the purpose of World Cup Qualifying, having an all-Euro team can be tough, especially when you have guys like Bocanegra travelling 12K miles to attend all the games.

However, the more appropriate question is: Is the improvement in club competition that a player gets in Europe outweighed by the decrease in performance from the travel they must complete to get to a Qualifier?

Reasonable people can disagree about that when it comes to Qualifying, but it's a different story at the WC Finals. Would you have left Sanneh, JOB, Reyna, etc. at home for 2002, when all the players can be assembled for a longer camp and the travel element is much less of a factor?

If the goal is the best finish possible at the Finals, I don't think there is any doubt what the answer is.

[MarioKempes]

And when Eddie Johnson is picked up by a European club and continues to dominate US scoring, then what? Your numbers will skew the other way.

[lurking]

And when Eddie Johnson is picked up by a European club and continues to dominate US scoring, then what? Your numbers will skew the other way.
Who scored to salvage a tie vs. Jamaica on the road? Who scored to salvage a tie vs. Panama on the road? Those were big points, and the goals came from guys other than EJ.

Not to say that I fully agree with the point hes trying to make, but it is an interesting way to look at things.

[ncguy]

I think Roehl needs a new tinfoil hat.

[nancyb]

I wonder if Roehl is some name spelled backward....

[Roehl Sybing]

However, the more appropriate question is: Is the improvement in club competition that a player gets in Europe outweighed by the decrease in performance from the travel they must complete to get to a Qualifier?
The US traveled to Europe twice in 2004 and for the Confed Cup in 2003. The two goals - and the only two goals - scored in that span came from Beasley, who played for Chicago at the time. I counted seven YAs in the starting lineup against Holland in Amsterdam, and we lost.

To say nothing of which the US has a grand total of one win in Europe in the past eight years. The YAs have been of very little help in that respect, yet I imagine many continue to hope beyond hope for our "star players" to finally produce.

A few wins credited to MLS players can be mere coincidence. An entire year going undefeated thanks to MLS players might be coincidence. But a pattern of increasing dominance by domestic players that goes back to the last World Cup - even further than that - is either extremely lucky or indicative of something greater.

[spot]

I hope MLS carries the national team forever, and the national team still gets better. That would be nice.

[Walter3000]

The US traveled to Europe twice in 2004 and for the Confed Cup in 2003. The two goals - and the only two goals - scored in that span came from Beasley, who played for Chicago at the time. I counted seven YAs in the starting lineup against Holland in Amsterdam, and we lost.

To say nothing of which the US has a grand total of one win in Europe in the past eight years. The YAs have been of very little help in that respect, yet I imagine many continue to hope beyond hope for our "star players" to finally produce.

A few wins credited to MLS players can be mere coincidence. An entire year going undefeated thanks to MLS players might be coincidence. But a pattern of increasing dominance by domestic players that goes back to the last World Cup - even further than that - is either extremely lucky or indicative of something greater.


why does it have to be all one or the other? If a player is better and has earned it, he should play. I surely dont want to see our only two viable left sided wings taken out of the fold(lewis and DMB). Gooch is about to take a CB spot for good(hopefully) and he should be paired with Gibbs or Bocanegra...hopefully we can find a true left back somewhere(paging some YA youngsters), and lets not forget Cherlundolo...the strength of our backline is in Europe(including our Keeper). Right now most of our best Forwards and CenterMids play in MLS, awesome.....why the fuss? The best 11 should play.

[Roehl Sybing]

why does it have to be all one or the other?
And why does this question never get asked to the other side?

[ScissorsKick]

I can see part of your argument. I also have reservations about players going abroad. I don't know if I would go so far as calling it a conspiracy. I just think foreign clubs just may not have that much respect for US players yet. Unfortunately, MLS players live to get a contract abroad. Then far too often they go abroad and ride the pine. They then get rusty and Arena still plays them because they are playing "abroad". And then our national team suffers. It gets confusing because you want the best players to play. However, you also want players who have current starting experience and are in form to play too. I think Donovan made the best decision of his career to go back to MLS. Look at Mcbride. Look at Mathis. I could go on, where is their spark? Sitting the bench can really put a hurting on a soccer stars psychic. I will argue that even Reyna and Lewis have been damaged. They seem carefree and passive on the field most of the time. Playing English style hold the ball at mid goes against every thing America stands for. Show some passion and take the ball forward and attack. Of course, I am being dramatic here but it is like taking a wild stallion and sticking him in the barn. I would take the fenced in field over the barn door view of the meadow any day. At least you can eat some grass, jump around, and feel like a horse again. The fact is, anytime one of our better national team players announces he is going abroad I get nervous because I picture that player not meeting some unknown European soccer standard and sitting the bench. And obviously, if you are sitting the bench you are not becoming a better player. Hopefully US players will eventually be respected more abroad. Gibbs and Beasley are at least being given a chance and they have shown well. I just hope they don't eventually get isolated because they are American and get the beat down.

[Plan B]

Simply put, while a national team without its top European-based players (i.e. Lewis, Beasley, Bocanegra) would find it harder to garner success, it is no great loss to the player pool; on the other hand, a national team without its domestic players would hardly be in contention for World Cup qualification in the first place.

who's meant to have been playing defense and in goal throughout 2004-05 for the U.S. team that doesn't need Euros to succeed? [esp. considering pope (1 game) and hejduk (none) have barely played this year due to injury].

[freisland]

Lewis has been damaged? That's rich.

And Gooch, and Gibbs, and Boca, and Dolo, and JOB (well, ok, he has been damaged, but not in the way you mean), and Frankie and Sanneh and Keller and BadBrad and Simek and Whitbred and Danny K. and Cooper and....

It's so funny to me how people insist on this league to league - or even continent to continent comps as if there is one place that is right for every player. LD MUST be in Spain. Convey can only play well in Andorra.

There are good clubs and there are bad clubs. Good coaches and bad coaches. Good coaches for one type of player, bad coaches for another. Systems that play to a player's strength, systems that don't.

Lienen at Hannover was bad for Clint. Tigana (because of his system) was bad for Lewis. Man U, because it put an unknown kid from Texas on the map, was good for Cooper, Liege (vs. Metz) has been good for Gooch. I believe Feynoord will be good Gibbs. I also think Guus is going to be good for Bease (as long as Bruce doesn't mistake him for Raph van der Vaart again.) I think Johan Neesken was not so good for Charles Kazlauskas. I think Fulham has not been so great for Boca because their injury situation has him playing out of his best position. Obviously Reading has been not very good for Convey. Ajax was great for JOB from a training side, but perhaps not so great from a physio side. Look at Brad. He owes most of his gigs to one coach who believes in him.

I think Yallop, for instance, was great for LD. I don't believe Sampson will be very good for him, unfortunately, but also don't believe that Sampson will be LD's coach in September.

[FirstStar]

I can see part of your argument. I also have reservations about players going abroad. I don't know if I would go so far as calling it a conspiracy. I just think foreign clubs just may not have that much respect for US players yet. Unfortunately, MLS players live to get a contract abroad. Then far too often they go abroad and ride the pine. They then get rusty and Arena still plays them because they are playing "abroad". And then our national team suffers. It gets confusing because you want the best players to play. However, you also want players who have current starting experience and are in form to play too. I think Donovan made the best decision of his career to go back to MLS. Look at Mcbride. Look at Mathis. I could go on, where is their spark? Sitting the bench can really put a hurting on a soccer stars psychic. I will argue that even Reyna and Lewis have been damaged. They seem carefree and passive on the field most of the time. Playing English style hold the ball at mid goes against every thing America stands for. Show some passion and take the ball forward and attack. Of course, I am being dramatic here but it is like taking a wild stallion and sticking him in the barn. I would take the fenced in field over the barn door view of the meadow any day. At least you can eat some grass, jump around, and feel like a horse again. The fact is, anytime one of our better national team players announces he is going abroad I get nervous because I picture that player not meeting some unknown European soccer standard and sitting the bench. And obviously, if you are sitting the bench you are not becoming a better player. Hopefully US players will eventually be respected more abroad. Gibbs and Beasley are at least being given a chance and they have shown well. I just hope they don't eventually get isolated because they are American and get the beat down.

If what you say is true (questionable, but possible), then there's another solution to your dilema-- send players to different countries. USSoccer, Bruce, the agents and MLS all have a stake in US players going to richer markets and succeeding. I think we should be focusing our efforts on getting players into leagues more suited to the style we want to play - Spain, France and Brazil to name a few where we have, I think, a grand total of two Americans playing.

[freisland]

There is one part of this equation that I do agree with - the number of games. Euro players, especially guys on teams that hang in domestic or UEFA?CL play for an length of time log insane amounts of playing time - Bease, Reyna, Boca, JOB have had weeks where they are flying insane miles, playing 270 minutes in a week or two - and that's got to wear on a guy.

[sidefootsitter]

You don't want to go to Brazil. But France and smaller Euro leagues like Holland, Belgium, Denmark, Greece, Portugal, Turkey should be all considered, although not everyone would fit the style that a given league may possess.

East European leagues are probably half a decade away from being a plausible destination for Yanks but may offer a "passport haven" for those who really want to become YAs.

[onefineesq]

And why does this question never get asked to the other side? The most insightful sentence in this thread. Not to say that I totally agree with Roehl's logic, because I think some of the evidence is misleading. Basically, I have come to much of the same conclusions as has Gaucho, in the 2nd post of the thread. However, Roehl's simple question is a terribly valid point. When evidence is presented that our MLS stars are on balance outperforming our YA's on the national team (which I believe they generally do), and advance the idea that the MLS nats need to be given more playing time and/or respect, people quickly poo-poo it and pass it off as extremism. However, when people advance the idea that the YA's should play the lions share of minutes despite what I feel is a relative lack of production (again, my opinion based on more than just goals scored, but on general play), noone seems to scrutinize that position nearly as much. Basically, I think our YA's get too much of a pass based on the simply fact that people assume they are better, because they are abroad and collect a better paycheck ....... and not because of what they see with their own eyes on the field.

[sidefootsitter]

The most insightful sentence in this thread. Not to say that I totally agree with Roehl's logic, because I think some of the evidence is misleading. Basically, I have come to much of the same conclusions as has Gaucho, in the 2nd post of the thread. However, Roehl's simple question is a terribly valid point. When evidence is presented that our MLS stars are on balance outperforming our YA's on the national team (which I believe they generally do), and advance the idea that the MLS nats need to be given more playing time and/or respect, people quickly poo-poo it and pass it off as extremism. However, when people advance the idea that the YA's should play the lions share of minutes despite what I feel is a relative lack of production (again, my opinion based on more than just goals scored, but on general play), noone seems to scrutinize that position nearly as much. Basically, I think our YA's get too much of a pass based on the simply fact that people assume they are better, because they are abroad and collect a better paycheck ....... and not because of what they see with their own eyes on the field. I don't know about that. Claudio Reyna, Bobby Convey and Brian McBride have more detractors on these boards than any MLS player and likewise Eddie Johnson and Clint Dempsey receive more plaudits than most YAs.

But, how does one judge the contribution of players? Roehl used the WC'02 goal scoring. I use a more subjective analysis based upon the ability to fullfill a certain assigned role, touches on the ball, percentage of completed forward passes, goal situations created, et cetera, et cetera.