Landon and Reyna

[SNUSA]

We all know that we saw a poor showing from Landon Donovan against Mexico. Then we saw a very good showing against Guatemala (though not as strong as against Mexico in Dallas).

There were a lot of differences -- at home, at night, weaker opponent.

But there's another one: Reyna wasn't on the field for the stronger effort.

I can't really remember Donovan playing well when both are on the field, except for vs. Mexico at the World Cup, where Reyna was forced into an unusual role.

Maybe I'm forgetting better matches. But is it possible that the LD/Reyna combod doesn't work? (could be something about playing styles, could be that Donovan doesn't like feeling like he's not the main guy on the field, could be my imagination).

Anyone?

[Bora Fan]

I'm with you on this one.

Reyna also didn't partner well himself with Harkes back in the day.

The knock was that Reyna was too passive from a leadership and was overshadowed by big personalities like Harkes etc.

On this team - when Landon is given the armband he produces.

What might need to frankly happen is for Landon to get this monkey off his back and simply go out and fight for the armband.

It's certainly there for the taking given Reyna's poor performance - and probable distractions with his career in England.

Claudio has been to 3 WCs - and perhaps played his greatest game already.

Going into the twilight of his career/maximum earnings potential - I have to believe he is going to be thinking about club and family more than country.

I don't blame him - he has been a fine captain over the Arena years and he is by virtue of his record our greatest player to wear a NT jersey.

But now it's time for Landon to have a go.

[SNUSA]

Just to be clear, I'm not necessarily talking about the captaincy. He didn't get it Wednesday night (Keller), but still made a lot happen.

[McKinney_Burn]

How does the match against Germany factor into this theory? That was one of the best performances by our squad in recent years, and they were both on the pitch for that one.

That being said, maybe the chemistry has to be exactly right for this to work, which isn't a small feat.

Very interesting theory.

[SNUSA]

True, I didn't include that match. It could very well be that since then, it's been a problem.

Heck, they may not have played much together since, and there's not enough to judge on. But it's a possibility.

[iawt]

The recent thread on Renya contains some posts that touch on this very important question. I think when Renya's in the central midfield it impacts Donovan in several respects. First, for probably a host of reasons, Donovan doesn't seem to be as involved in the game. Second, we do not play as direct, so Donovan's speed is not utalized as much. And finally, and arguabnly the most important, is that it often impacts our formation because Renya is typcially paired with another defensive midfielder. Since Renya is not an attacking midfielder, it results in us having a defensive posture in the midfield and causes Bruce to be creative in his positioning of the other mids. So sometimes Donovan is forced to the outside, where he tends not to be as effective, or we play with a box midfield with no outside support other than the outside backs, or with 5 mids and only one forward.

[ajax1972]

I will always wonder what would have happened to Claudio's career if he had accepted the offer from Barcelona after the Olympics instead of staying at UVA for four years....maybe he would have gotten homesick too, been stuck on the bench or in the reserves..... or maybe he would have become something extraordinary and his European trajectory would have unfolded on a higher level than it actually did...

[freisland]

Or, perhaps, it is that LD doesn't work well with Bease as an Amid... Look, I appreciate everyone trying to glean some great Reyna insight from these two matches, but underneat the finesse there is the 800 lb gorilla: Bease blew chunks playing A-mid for the first half v. Mexico. The rest is icing.

This does not mean Bease should never play for the nats again. It doesn't mean Bease can't play with EJ, or Bease can't play with Lewis or Bease can't play with Pablo or Bease is worse because of Guus or Bease MUST PLAY all the time to be good. It just means he had a sub par game at an unusual position in a very difficult stadium against a very good team.

It's not rocket surgery.

[iawt]

Or, perhaps, it is that LD doesn't work well with Bease as an Amid... Look, I appreciate everyone trying to glean some great Reyna insight from these two matches, but underneat the finesse there is the 800 lb gorilla: Bease blew chunks playing A-mid for the first half v. Mexico. The rest is icing.



I'm not sure why you think "everyone" is trying to glean some great insight from these two matches. On numerous occisions now in recent threads, Renya's impact on the team when he plays in the central midfield has been discussed and many of the comments are based on historical results against top teams in those games, and not just on the these two matches. But somehow it seems you either are not getting that or you are conciously choosing to ignore it, since you continue to make this same assertion.

[NBlue]

Or, perhaps, it is that LD doesn't work well with Bease as an Amid... Look, I appreciate everyone trying to glean some great Reyna insight from these two matches, but underneat the finesse there is the 800 lb gorilla: Bease blew chunks playing A-mid for the first half v. Mexico. The rest is icing.

This does not mean Bease should never play for the nats again. It doesn't mean Bease can't play with EJ, or Bease can't play with Lewis or Bease can't play with Pablo or Bease is worse because of Guus or Bease MUST PLAY all the time to be good. It just means he had a sub par game at an unusual position in a very difficult stadium against a very good team.

It's not rocket surgery.

Agreed (except for the part about the surgery).

[freisland]

I'm not sure why you think "everyone" is trying to glean some great insight from these two matches. On numerous occisions now in recent threads, Renya's impact on the team when he plays in the central midfield has been discussed and many of the comments are based on historical results against top teams in those games, and not just on the these two matches. But somehow it seems you either are not getting that or you are conciously choosing to ignore it, since you continue to make this same assertion.

I continue to make the same assertion - there is no pattern. Or not enough for the constantly repeated assertion that the US "always" plays well with LD in the middle and "never" does with Reyna. It's just not true.

Sometimes the US plays better (or at least very well) without Reyna. That's is certainly true - as the Portugal game, the second half of Mex in C-bus and Hondo away shows.

Sometimes the US plays worse (or at least very badly) without Reyna, as the Hondo home game and the CR game in the last hex shows.

Sometimes the US plays better (or at least well) with Reyna, as the CR, Jamaica, TnT from the last hex and SK, Mex and even Germany games show.

Sometimes the US plays worse (or at least not great) with Reyna, as the Mexico in Azteca and Poland WC games show.

Some of those games have Reyna playing centrally with another D-MID and LD playing RM: SK in SK, for instance, which people discount, but tieing a WC hosting team at home is a fairly big deal, especially giving up a late equalizer.

Some had CR playing Central with a DM and no LD (TnT and Costa Rica home last hex) Some had CR playing Central with a DM and LD playing forward (Jamaica home)

You and Nutmeg see a clear pattern, I do not.

When people go through and pick their "Claudio Stats" they all, including me, pick a sample that fits their perception. I like to point out that CR tends to play mostly difficult games - qaulies and hex games and euro friendlies in europe. LD has many more friendlies (in recent history - you can look at Beadling Boy's post to see more about past history.) Folks who want to discount Reyna tend to consciously ignore" things like the Olympic team being woodshedded in Guadelajara.

I don't think the "objective historical data" is conclusive. What is clear is that in Reyna (and LD's tenure) the US has been doing very well and imporved considerably. Is this due to Reyna, Arena, LD, USSF, the water, or my vocal appearance at so many USMNT matches. I believe the last...

[iawt]

freisland, I wasn't taking exception to your different view on Renya's impact on the team when he plays in the central midfield as reasonable minds can view history quite differently. Rather, I was taking exception to your earlier assertion about everybody trying to glean something from the past two games, when, as your latest post acknowledges, many of the posts on this subject were not just based on the past two games.

[freisland]

freisland, I wasn't taking exception to your different view on Renya's impact on the team when he plays in the central midfield as reasonable minds can view history quite differently. Rather, I was taking exception to your earlier assertion about everybody trying to glean something from the past two games, when, as your latest post acknowledges, many of the posts on this subject were not just based on the past two games.

Well "everybody" is certainly hyperbole, but I still think comparing Mexico at Azteca and Guat in Alabama is really not a helpful comp, in any regard. The Reyna question can be (and has been and will be) argued a number of ways, but using the US' performance in these two very different games seems, to me, not to be helpful and is actually vaguely dishonest when used by some of the posters who I know know more about soccer than to compare such different circumstances.

[iawt]

Well "everybody" is certainly hyperbole, but I still think comparing Mexico at Azteca and Guat in Alabama is really not a helpful comp, in any regard. The Reyna question can be (and has been and will be) argued a number of ways, but using the US' performance in these two very different games seems, to me, not to be helpful and is actually vaguely dishonest when used by some of the posters who I know know more about soccer than to compare such different circumstances.

I agree with you that the past two games alone are not a helpful comparison.

[freisland]

I agree with you that the past two games alone are not a helpful comparison.

See, we CAN all just get along!

[ctruppi]

When people go through and pick their "Claudio Stats" they all, including me, pick a sample that fits their perception. I like to point out that CR tends to play mostly difficult games - qaulies and hex games and euro friendlies in europe. LD has many more friendlies (in recent history - you can look at Beadling Boy's post to see more about past history.) Folks who want to discount Reyna tend to consciously ignore" things like the Olympic team being woodshedded in Guadelajara.

I don't think the "objective historical data" is conclusive. What is clear is that in Reyna (and LD's tenure) the US has been doing very well and imporved considerably. Is this due to Reyna, Arena, LD, USSF, the water, or my vocal appearance at so many USMNT matches. I believe the last...


Maybe you do that, but I certainly don't. Since 1994 when CR was in the nats player pool the US has played in 3 Wc's, 1 Copa America, 2 Confederations Cups, and several Gold Cups. With CR running MF in these tournaments we have won exactly 1 game (vs Mexico in PK in '95 Copa America, Reyna subbed in 70 minute for Ramos). In these tournments we have beaten Colombia, Argentina, Chile, Brazil, Germany, Argentina, Portugal and Mexico all w/o CR running the MF. We have never lost to lesser teams in these tournaments w/o CR in there (if we have, please enlighten me). The only tournament during this time where CR was the de facto MF general out there (98 WC) US soccer had its most embarrasing results ever and was the laughingstock of the tournament. To look at these results and still cling to the notion that CR is vital when playing vs superior competition is beyond me and borders on the insane!

You bring up hex matches that are meaningless for this discussion because unlike major tournaments, WCQ are just so much less a barometer of a teams ability and based so much on other factors. Teams breeze through WCQ and crash out in the 1st round. The tournaments to me are a much greater gauge of where a team is. The pressure is on and the meaning is so much deeper for these games. What CR brought to the team vs Jamaica halfway through the hex is a joke and quite absurd to give it the same historical weight as never having won a WC game with CR running MF in his career!

[freisland]

Maybe you do that, but I certainly don't. Since 1994 when CR was in the nats player pool the US has played in 3 Wc's, 1 Copa America, 2 Confederations Cups, and several Gold Cups. With CR running MF in these tournaments we have won exactly 1 game (vs Mexico in PK in '95 Copa America, Reyna subbed in 70 minute for Ramos). In these tournments we have beaten Colombia, Argentina, Chile, Brazil, Germany, Argentina, Portugal and Mexico all w/o CR running the MF. We have never lost to lesser teams in these tournaments w/o CR in there (if we have, please enlighten me). The only tournament during this time where CR was the de facto MF general out there (98 WC) US soccer had its most embarrasing results ever and was the laughingstock of the tournament. To look at these results and still cling to the notion that CR is vital when playing vs superior competition is beyond me and borders on the insane!

You bring up hex matches that are meaningless for this discussion because unlike major tournaments, WCQ are just so much less a barometer of a teams ability and based so much on other factors. Teams breeze through WCQ and crash out in the 1st round. The tournaments to me are a much greater gauge of where a team is. The pressure is on and the meaning is so much deeper for these games. What CR brought to the team vs Jamaica halfway through the hex is a joke and quite absurd to give it the same historical weight as never having won a WC game with CR running MF in his career!

Yes, everyone cherry picks but you - only you count gold cups and not WCQ's... "Teams breeze through WCQ and crash in the 1st round." No kidding. Teams win WC's and then crash out in the first round too.

Your choice of games, sir, is full of crap. It is to serve your position. Let's see - who has played central midfield in the only game the US has won against a European team is Europe. Reyna. He's GOD. He is JORMA!!!

Sigh.

There is a pathalogical need to denegrate Reyna that some posters manifest. The need is so strong they can't live with the clear answer that "the US sometimes plays better, sometimes not with CR in the lineup." Some do it, perhaps, because they no longer have McBride to kick around. Some for who knows what reason. But if you really think beating Canada on PKs in the Gold Cup is better indicator (speaking of cruising through Hexes and crashing out in the WC - Canada friggin' WON a gold cup. yikes.) of a team's ability than a WC qualifier against CR - who actually makes the WC, then I just can't help you man. Deep aroma therapy is the only answer. Try the Turkish Coffee - maybe you will wake up and smell it.

We got pasted in the Olympic Q's by Mexico without Reyna. We lost to Turkey, tied Cameroon in the confed cup. We got beat by Hondo AT HOME - in a game you think doesn't count because teams cruise through qualifying and get knocked out in the first round of the WC. Beware the coffee coming through my nose.

I mean, for heaven's sake. The Gold Cup! Canada 0 US 0, Cuba 0, US 1 AT HOME!

Hysterical. In the true sense of the word.

[freisland]

Did I mention how well we've done in the GOLD CUP!

Copa D'oro. Gilded vessel of the gods.

Martinique
Cuba (twice by gum)
El Salvador (two times baby. That'll teach you.)
Costa Rica (twice as well)
Brazil... oh never mind.
Ok, so we were AT HOME. So we TIED Canada? So it is a tournament that MAJOR SOCCER NATION registeredtrademarknottobeusedwithoutpermission Canada has actually won!? It is named after a precious metal.

I mean, to claim you don't cherry pick games and try to pass off the Gold Cup!! played two years at home against the likes of Martinique, Cuba - ok, South Korea I'll give you, is laughable.

And the confed cup. Loss to Turkey? Tie Cameroon? For heaven's sake. What about the olympic qualifiers? How is Reyna implicated in that fiasco?

Ok, say it with me. Sometimes we are better with Reyna, sometimes we are worse,
But tying Canada in Pasadena does not make us Brazil.

[ctruppi]

Did I mention how well we've done in the GOLD CUP!

Copa D'oro. Gilded vessel of the gods.

Martinique
Cuba (twice by gum)
El Salvador (two times baby. That'll teach you.)
Costa Rica (twice as well)
Brazil... oh never mind.
Ok, so we were AT HOME. So we TIED Canada? So it is a tournament that MAJOR SOCCER NATION registeredtrademarknottobeusedwithoutpermission Canada has actually won!? It is named after a precious metal.

I mean, to claim you don't cherry pick games and try to pass off the Gold Cup!! played two years at home against the likes of Martinique, Cuba - ok, South Korea I'll give you, is laughable.

And the confed cup. Loss to Turkey? Tie Cameroon? For heaven's sake. What about the olympic qualifiers? How is Reyna implicated in that fiasco?

Ok, say it with me. Sometimes we are better with Reyna, sometimes we are worse,
But tying Canada in Pasadena does not make us Brazil.

Please since you are all-knowing and perfect, name me the one match vs a highly favored opponent where we actually won the game with CR as the midfield leader. You can say anything you want about Beas and LD and Harkes and Dooley and Ramos and whoever you choose. The one thing you can't say is that these guys never, ever had a win against a highly superior team in a major int'l tournament.

But after reading all your well-formulated opinions I confess that I have learned the error of my ways. Yes CR is the GOD OF THE HEX. The US lost to Honduras w/o him and beat Jamaica with him. And OH MY FREAKING GOD, they only beat Cuba w/o him 1-0 at home - horror of horrors. I guarantee that w/CR running the MF they would have beaten Cuba at least 2-0!!! Yes beating Austria in Austria and Poland in Poland w/CR makes him the key to all things in the US soccer world. I know, I now admit that it's completely stupid, moronic and idiotic to point out that every single stinking major WC victory we've won during his illustrious career was when he was actually not playing. And God forbid that one should point out that with him in the WC lineup running MF we have won exactly ZERO matches. But thanks to your superior intelligence, I now have the insight to negate the historical significance of beating favored nations in the WC by comparing them to poor performances vs Cuba in the Gold Cup as proof that CR hasn't been a total waste of time!!

[doneshufflin]

Reyna was in the past a great player for us, but his time has passed. We do not play a possession style that Reyna needs to be effective. He is too slow and in effect reduces our abilities. Our strength lies within our counter attack and speedy play. Reyna does not fit that mold. I love Claudio for all he has done over the years, but he needs to retire from the NATS and let the new generation step up.