Can anyone beat Brazil in ’06? - Part I [R]

[Ombak]

i've been saying this for 5 years, but i believe england are a real threat to win in 2006Well, even before 2002 a lot of people were saying this. Of course, back then it was because they expected BEckham and Owen to be in their prime, Gerrard to emerge as a national team player and goalkeeping to improve. The fact that Rooney and Lampard have also emerged and that England now has the best central defence in the world is a huge bonus.

All that being said, losing in the quarters could still happen - it all depends on the draw, and I'm sure it would be immensely dissapointing for them to lose in the quarters after already having been that far in 2002.

I think I said earlier in this thread that England should be favorites alongside Germany and right after Brazil.

[Sempre]

England have never beat Brazil at the World Cup and
I don't see it happening in 2006. The English team at
the 2006 WC will be exactly the same team that lost
to Portugal and France at Euro2004; so why would they
be world-beaters all of a sudden?

If you want to talk about a team beating a great
soccer nation like Brazil, you have to think of teams
with a long tradition of success at the WC--Germany,
Italy, and Argentina. It can happen--the ball is round--
but everyone has to respect Brazil as the reigning
champions and, yes, the best team in the world.

[Ombak]

England have never beat Brazil at the World Cup and
I don't see it happening in 2006. The English team at
the 2006 WC will be exactly the same team that lost
to Portugal and France at Euro2004; so why would they
be world-beaters all of a sudden?

If you want to talk about a team beating a great
soccer nation like Brazil, you have to think of teams
with a long tradition of success at the WC--Germany,
Italy, and Argentina. It can happen--the ball is round--
but everyone has to respect Brazil as the reigning
champions and, yes, the best team in the world.And if England doesn't face Brazil? And by the way, England is not exactly the same as in 2004 and I do believe they will be even better than that team.

[afgrijselijkheid]

Well, even before 2002 a lot of people were saying this. Of course, back then it was because they expected BEckham and Owen to be in their prime, Gerrard to emerge as a national team player and goalkeeping to improve. The fact that Rooney and Lampard have also emerged and that England now has the best central defence in the world is a huge bonus.

All that being said, losing in the quarters could still happen - it all depends on the draw, and I'm sure it would be immensely dissapointing for them to lose in the quarters after already having been that far in 2002.

I think I said earlier in this thread that England should be favorites alongside Germany and right after Brazil.


allow me to clarify: i've been saying since 2000 that england will be a real threat to win in 2006, not in 2002

[Alex_1]

I see a few teams as big threats to Brasil - Germany being maybe the biggest. I think they are quietly putting together a very dynamic team around Michael Ballack. And then at home too... never underestimate the German's.

France is another team that usually seems to have Brasil's number in recent years. I have a feeling they will come together as qualifying continues and turn out a solid team. I'm not very confident for Brasil against France.. it's like they have a block against them in some ways.

England is a big threat too. Their defense might stifle them. It depends on how they play tactically against Brasil, and it depends on who they ahve starting in central defense. Last time England lost with poor tactics IMO. But this time I think they really match-up well and Rooney will have no stigma of losing to Brasil before. player for player they match up with everyone. Terry might do well against Ronaldinho but it will be interesting to see if they can handle a powerful striker like Adriano, and then with Kaka withdrawn. Would be the match of the tournament IMO. But if England presses, they could beat Brasil.

Argentina is probably the other bigger challenge jsut because they are Argentina. I think they are bitter from 2002 and while they look to do wel in qualifying, would happily trade in the success for just a birth and a WC victory. But we will see how thir roster stands out. They have the depth and creative players... although it is disappointing for them with Tevez noticeable omissions since he could have been such a major cog in their 2006 build-up.

Netherlands is also going to be dangerous. They always play Brasil tough and I wouldn't expect anything less. I see a bad mismatch if a slowed up Roberto Carlos is caught exposed on the wings against Arjen Robben, and if Parreira insists on using Roque Jr., Van Nistilrooy could be more than a thorn in their side.

There are some other teams though that could pose a big threat. I don't know how well the CAF teams will do against Brasil... I don't really remember Brasil having to play them very often but I could see (should they qualify) Cameroon giving them huge problems. Spain and Italy would also not be locks but I'd be a bit more confident of Brasil facing off against them.



But it is more than a year away. Many things can happen and change. There may be some injuries that will change the landscape too. Remember in 2002 Emerson was injured right before the cup and it seemed lk Brasil played much better without him.... as Migkiller will say. ;) So who knows... suddenly Germany doesn't look as dangerous if Ballack isn't there.

[scarfo]

England is a big threat too. Their defense might stifle them. It depends on how they play tactically against Brasil, and it depends on who they ahve starting in central defense. Last time England lost with poor tactics IMO. But this time I think they really match-up well and Rooney will have no stigma of losing to Brasil before. player for player they match up with everyone. Terry might do well against Ronaldinho but it will be interesting to see if they can handle a powerful striker like Adriano, and then with Kaka withdrawn. Would be the match of the tournament IMO. But if England presses, they could beat Brasil.

Brazil are quite justifiably the favorites, but no team (except perhaps Italy) is better equipped to beat them than England. These two nations have, almost indisputably, the best back fours in the world. In Ferdinand they have a tactically brilliant and composed, almost sweeper-like defender, and in Terry they have someone with the strength and aerial ability to nullify anyone, even Adriano.

To suggest that anyone can outpower England is crazy! I would say that, man for man, they are the most powerful nation in WC06. Teams who are playing against England will need to exploit Terrys lack of pace, because if they attempt to outpower him, they WILL lose.

Elsewhere, I fear Argentina, Czech and France. Remember that only one non euro team has ever won the WC in europe, and that was the brilliant, Pele inspired team of 58.

[Ombak]

France is another team that usually seems to have Brasil's number in recent years. I have a feeling they will come together as qualifying continues and turn out a solid team. I'm not very confident for Brasil against France.. it's like they have a block against them in some ways.France couldn't beat Brazil right now. They are not the same now as they were under Jacquet and Lemerre. They really need to fix a lot before they can challenge. A Brazil x France rematch would be pretty anti-climactic at this point.

[Alex_1]

Brazil are quite justifiably the favorites, but no team (except perhaps Italy) is better equipped to beat them than England. These two nations have, almost indisputably, the best back fours in the world. In Ferdinand they have a tactically brilliant and composed, almost sweeper-like defender, and in Terry they have someone with the strength and aerial ability to nullify anyone, even Adriano.

To suggest that anyone can outpower England is crazy! I would say that, man for man, they are the most powerful nation in WC06. Teams who are playing against England will need to exploit Terrys lack of pace, because if they attempt to outpower him, they WILL lose.

Don't know if I agree so much with the Adriano bit - he is arguably the most powerful striker in the game today. There haven't really been any defenses capable of containing him all year for club or country (when he's had his shot). England would be a big challenge for him, but the kid is a beast. Brasil usually doesn't play to 'run over' the opposition or overpower it. With players like Ronaldinho or Kaka, the approach is a bit different. IMO the x factor in that match would be a player like Robinho and how Brasil would play him. If England would be forced to focus on Adriano, that could open some space for either Kaka or Ronaldinho who do have a bit mroe pace and trickery. It would depend on who's available and what direction Parreira goes with. England would match-up very well with Brasil - depends on how they play their back-line and the type of midfield set they utilize. But I think the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Cole and Beckham could stand their ground well against Brasil - as long as they can win the ball in midfield against Emerson/Gilberto Silva/Renato. If Emerson would play the way he did against Liverpool, then it would be a long night for Brasil.

I don't know if Brasil has the best back line - anytime Roque Jr. is in the line-up that automatically takes them out of that equation. Juan has been inconsistent IMO. Sometimes he looks like nobody can beat him, othertimes he looks well off. And Lucio... also a bit inconsistent right now. Over the summer Parreira will give tests to some of the other defenders - like maybe Alex at PSV or Luisao, maybe even Bordon again and Mancini. Wouldn't be surprised to see Gustavo Nery again too.

[scarfo]

The England back line would deal with Adriano by sticking Terry on him. My fear is that Erikson would play too negatively and invite Brazil onto England. If Erikson played a balanced attacking lineup, Terry could deal with the Phsysical presense of Adriano, allowing the experienced J Cole, Neville and Ferdinand to snuff out anything else.

This kind of debate is why it would be one of the games of the tournament!

[Ombak]

The England back line would deal with Adriano by sticking Terry on him. My fear is that Erikson would play too negatively and invite Brazil onto England. If Erikson played a balanced attacking lineup, Terry could deal with the Phsysical presense of Adriano, allowing the experienced J Cole, Neville and Ferdinand to snuff out anything else.

This kind of debate is why it would be one of the games of the tournament!So if Adriano has Terry on him Ronaldo has Ferdinand? And you stick to man-marking? Great. Man-marking ain't gonna cut it on either of those and especially not on the team as a whole.

Adriano of course isn't only power, he has the pace to beat Terry.

[Alex_1]

France couldn't beat Brazil right now. They are not the same now as they were under Jacquet and Lemerre. They really need to fix a lot before they can challenge. A Brazil x France rematch would be pretty anti-climactic at this point.

They still have some changes to make - IMO though a part of France's problems this year/recent qualifiers has also been because they missed Djibril Cisse and have yet to establish any real imagination moving the ball forward. They still have some very talented players... but seem to be struggling to find a system that works.

[Alex_1]

So if Adriano has Terry on him Ronaldo has Ferdinand? And you stick to man-marking? Great. Man-marking ain't gonna cut it on either of those and especially not on the team as a whole.

Adriano of course isn't only power, he has the pace to beat Terry.

That's just it... he's a beast. Terry is a great central defender, but if you have the two central defenders on him & Ronaldo, that opens up a lot of room for Ronaldinho or Kaka... who both have some speed as well. That could mean that Gerrard & Lampard would have to play deeper than England prefer.

I keep getting images of Copa America where Adriano scored the goal to put the match into extra time against Argentina. It only took a moment for him to just completely overpower their entire backline... with a solid free-kick sent in from Alex.

[Ombak]

They still have some changes to make - IMO though a part of France's problems this year/recent qualifiers has also been because they missed Djibril Cisse and have yet to establish any real imagination moving the ball forward. They still have some very talented players... but seem to be struggling to find a system that works.IMHO if France fix things quickly enough it will be because they discard some of the players that should perform for them but haven't - Vieira in particular, but Henry as well - the whole thing about them and Pires laughing at Wiltord's inclusion (in 2004 I think) is ridiculous. They could do fine with a midfield of Pedretti, Makelele (if he wants to play) Rothen and Giuly. And assuming Vieira and Henry aren't contributing to the locker-room atmosphere the change could be significant.

[scarfo]

If you're going to play Adriano, Ronaldo, Kaka and Ronaldinho all in the same team, you're going to be very attacking, and therefore vulnerable on the break.

Terry wouldn't man mark Adriano as such, rather "look after" him and his aerial threat. Ferdinand is also a very strong, talented defender. I think a number of teams could realistically shut out Brazil, and as they will be weak at the back, I feel that, if they don't win the tournament, they will go out before the Semi-Finals.

It's all very well arguing about how Brazil are going to break down the English defence, but what happens when England are coming forward? Those four players contribute nothing going backwards, and the classic English workrate could work to their advantage. I see Brazil falling to a similar fate against any team with a very strong defense; look what's happened when the extremely talented and flair-laden Inter team came up against the rock that is AC Milan. Just as equally, look what happened when Italy sat back and rested on their laurels against a moderately talented South Korean team.

[lamrof]

If England cannot win with the players they have now, I don't know if they can ever. The only other thing they need is for lady Luck sprinkle some love unto them.
England must get to the championship match. You got to go to what, '66 to find England? I think they have the world's most dangerous and able central field player in Lampard. That guy scares me. He is powerful, fast and full of subtle but effective guile. Just watch the goals he scores. I think he will be a marked man though, whenever he is in the opposing team field.

Brazil's Ronaldo seems to have started a conscious effort to ready himself for the big show. He lost weight and is showing some fighting spirit as of late. Something I haven't seen in a long time.

I watched Ivory Coast's national team play. Ladies and Gentlemen be ready. They are one impressive bunch. Power, speed, technique, finishing, it is all there. Teams need psychological advantage to beat them as I see that could be their only deficiency.

[lamrof]

I think a number of teams could realistically shut out Brazil, and as they will be weak at the back, I feel that, if they don't win the tournament, they will go out before the Semi-Finals.
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Any team whose strategy relies on shutting down Brazil and try to pack the penalty area, might as well not show up because it is an attempted but failed tactic. There needs to be balance and quality in every part of a team's aspect to beat Brazil in world cup games. (and then some luck)
I agree with your "AC milan" statement, they are a very balanced and are a high quality team as are Chelsea. Barcelona have a good defence and breathtaking offence and they lost to Chelsea.

[The Potter]

So if Adriano has Terry on him Ronaldo has Ferdinand? And you stick to man-marking? Great. Man-marking ain't gonna cut it on either of those and especially not on the team as a whole.

Adriano of course isn't only power, he has the pace to beat Terry.


Thats it. I think Terry has enough strength and ariel power to nuulify that part of Adriano's game but if Adriano gets behind the bck of Terry England will be in trouble. :(

[Alex_1]

IMHO if France fix things quickly enough it will be because they discard some of the players that should perform for them but haven't - Vieira in particular, but Henry as well - the whole thing about them and Pires laughing at Wiltord's inclusion (in 2004 I think) is ridiculous. They could do fine with a midfield of Pedretti, Makelele (if he wants to play) Rothen and Giuly. And assuming Vieira and Henry aren't contributing to the locker-room atmosphere the change could be significant.

I actually really agree - IMO Giuly doesn't play nearly as well for Les Blues as he does for his club side and in many ways Viera sort of stifles France when they play. Maybe a weird take, but I jsut don't like the wya he plays for them.

But locker room atmosphere? I'm clueless there - those two are problems? I know that Viera can be a real a$$. But Henry as well?

[The Potter]

I actually really agree - IMO Giuly doesn't play nearly as well for Les Blues as he does for his club side and in many ways Viera sort of stifles France when they play. Maybe a weird take, but I jsut don't like the wya he plays for them.

But locker room atmosphere? I'm clueless there - those two are problems? I know that Viera can be a real a$$. But Henry as well?


I would see no point in France getting rid of Viera and Henry imo there clearly France's best two players.

Viera-Pedretti, Henry-Cisse would both be a case of replacing excelent players with good players.

[Ombak]

I would see no point in France getting rid of Viera and Henry imo there clearly France's best two players.Best two for France? I'm not so sure. Best two French players? Yes.Viera-Pedretti, Henry-Cisse would both be a case of replacing excelent players with good players.There's no doubt about that. But if Viera and Henry do not perform as well as they should for France and on top of that they are indeed a problem as I suspect they might be (based on the incident in Euro 2004 I described above), then it would be best to replace them. That said, right now Domenech (the coach) seems to be the bigger problem and the incident above came under Santini - I am only speculating that it may indicate such a problem even today.