wenger and the champions league

[mis-e-one]

(I posted similar comments to below after the last Bayern Munich game and feelings were understandably running high. Now that was a few weeks ago, perhaps it's a better time to post it).


I was speaking with some Arsenal friends of mine about the Champions League and why Arsenal have been poor in it thus far. Attempting to ascertain why is difficult.

It's not the quality of player. Henry, Vieira, Campbell, Pires, Bergkamp, Ljungberg, Cole are all top players.

So is it the manager? Is Wenger tactically inadept at this level? He's achieved domestic success but European success has evaded Arsenal.

If Arsenal continue to be successful in England, but do poorly in Europe, should Wenger go?

[yossarian]

(I posted similar comments to below after the last Bayern Munich game and feelings were understandably running high. Now that was a few weeks ago, perhaps it's a better time to post it).


I was speaking with some Arsenal friends of mine about the Champions League and why Arsenal have been poor in it thus far. Attempting to ascertain why is difficult.

It's not the quality of player. Henry, Vieira, Campbell, Pires, Bergkamp, Ljungberg, Cole are all top players.

So is it the manager? Is Wenger tactically inadept at this level? He's achieved domestic success but European success has evaded Arsenal.

If Arsenal continue to be successful in England, but do poorly in Europe, should Wenger go?

I've had this discussion with Nicephoras before...ad infinitum....so I'll just hit the high points.....
1. I don't think Wenger is the best tactical manager in the world, that being said....
2. Football is for the most part, a players' sport. As you know there are no "set plays", etc., etc., therefore tactics only get you so far.
3. As a corollary to #2....a managers tactics are somewhat limited to the types of players that play on his squad...for example....could Wenger start an aerial attack type tactic where we were constantly lofting long crosses into the box? Well, he could but since very few of our players are good in the air....wouldn't be much point.
4. Wenger has changed tactics on occasion despite some people thinking he never changes tactics. He's played a strictly counter-attacking style at times when he thought we needed to be more defensive.
5. We exited the CL because of two defensive errors in the first match that no amount of tactics could've planned for.....see, again, point #2.


Finally, let me ask you a question......what, tactically, should Wenger have done differently against Munich....given the players at his disposal?

[Bluto11]

so you asked this before and lots o'people told you to piss off and you are back again.



smooth

[mis-e-one]

We exited the CL because of two defensive errors in the first match that no amount of tactics could've planned for

No, you played badly, that's why you lost.

what, tactically, should Wenger have done differently against Munich....given the players at his disposal?

If Arsenal do poorly in Europe then maybe it IS the manager's fault.

[mis-e-one]

so you asked this before and lots o'people told you to piss off and you are back again.



smooth

People told me to 'piss off' because they were too sensitive for a serious discussion.

That cannot be my problem.

[yossarian]

No, you played badly, that's why you lost.

Semantics.....Kolo Toure played badly...aka defensive mistakes....lead to the first two Munich goals.


If Arsenal do poorly in Europe then maybe it IS the manager's fault.

I answered your questions with my opinions and this is the best you can come back with? Poor.

As you're obviously not looking for a real discussion, why don't you run along before Rick bans you from the forum anyway.

[Bluto11]

People told me to 'piss off' because they were too sensitive for a serious discussion.

That cannot be my problem.
alrighty

when the time comes and there is some Spurs topic worthy of discussion (which might never happen ;) ) I will make a thread in the Spurs forum which will probably wind people up and get accused of trolling

[mis-e-one]

Semantics.....Kolo Toure played badly...aka defensive mistakes....lead to the first two Munich goals.

Everyone played badly. This includes the 'great' players like Henry, Vieira and co. Why do you think Wenger said it was Arsenal's worst performance in Europe under him.



I answered your questions with my opinions and this is the best you can come back with? Poor.

As you're obviously not looking for a real discussion, why don't you run along before Rick bans you from the forum anyway.

No thanks.

[mis-e-one]

alrighty

when the time comes and there is some Spurs topic worthy of discussion (which might never happen ;) ) I will make a thread in the Spurs forum which will probably wind people up and get accused of trolling

I'm not winding anyone up.

[billyho96]

The CL is not suited for the Fnglish game, which is why despite all ManUs dominance in the late 90s they won only once. And that required two stoppage time goals in the final and overcoming a 2-nil score line away in Turin.

Have you ever watched a Serie A match? It is realitively new to most americans with the advent of GotTV. Those matches are like watching paint dry. You park the bus in front of the goal and wait for a mistake, like the Crespo goal at Old Trafford. We had 25 minutes to squeeze the one goal from Bayern at Highbury that would have put us through. When one goal is the difference, as it often is, you really can't put that on the manager.

I recall year before last just prior to the Juve/Milan final when the MLS season was about to start that one writer mentioned that the opening weekend of MLS would be more exciting than that final . . . he was right. No real chances were created and Milan won on penalties. Even Madrid, all attack, no defending Madrid could only muster one goal in two legs against Juve.

The tension is great but the quality of chances in some of those games are just awful. Its not the team the plays the best that wins its the team that doesn't make mistakes. It makes for a dreadful full domestic season.

The Chelsea Barca match was an abberation. An exciting match, both legs, but a 5-4 aggregate is the exception, not the norm.

we lost by one goal to Chelsea in the CL last season on a strike in the last 10 minutes, we lost this season after failing to get the last goal in the final half hour and three years ago we go out at Valencia, needing only a draw to a 2-1 defeat. The result are the same, defeat. But its not like we pulled a Werder Bremen type 10-3 defeat. We are getting closer. IMO. A healthy side this season, maybe we advance. You think with a healthy Campbell, GIlberto and Edu we couldn't have created or prevented one more goal.

I just don't think it is as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

Arsene knows, of course I do go back and forth on this one.

[Catfish]

Here it is:

Arsenal play a very finesse, ball control, attacking and counter attacking style of football. When AW teaches our players....ATTACK, COUNTERATTACK, ATTACK, and COUNTERATTACK! It is hard for the lads to be patient and stay tough.

The CL style of play is to throw out the pretty stuff and play hard nose physical defense with attack only on the rare occasion.

When the challenges come flying into our Gunners, our rhythm is thrown off and our club wasn't built around playing hunker down defense and be very patient for the winning goal or the goal to draw level.

Just a theory.

[antifan]

People told me to 'piss off' because they were too sensitive for a serious discussion.

That cannot be my problem.
Piss off troll, this topic has been beaten to death. If you are interested in what Arsenal fans think, go read the threads for your answer. If you are here to troll, gfy. ;)

[mad theory]

Football is for the most part, a players' sport. As you know there are no "set plays", etc., etc., therefore tactics only get you so far.

if that's what you think, then there's no need for managers at all. wake up ffs, wenger seems so arrogantly confident he probably doesn't watch tapes of the opponents at all. just show up with is usual system and hope for the best.

plus i don't see wenger as the motivational type. what the ******** did he say at halftime to the team when we were 2-1 against manure?

Semantics.....Kolo Toure played badly...aka defensive mistakes....lead to the first two Munich goals.

ffs man, the whole team played piss poor. yes kolo made two errors but it's hard to blame kolo for our exit. we didn't show in munich and we didn't show for the first half at highbury. which left us 45mins to score 2 goals without letting bayern score. that's a near impossible situation considering who we were playing.

and people this isn't the chelsea forum so stfu because he's entitled to his opinions, plus he makes some good points which i agree with.

i honestly don't think we'll win the CL with wenger, he just isn't good enough against the best. hopefully i'm wrong but it's unlikely.

[mad theory]

The CL style of play is to throw out the pretty stuff and play hard nose physical defense with attack only on the rare occasion.

When the challenges come flying into our Gunners, our rhythm is thrown off and our club wasn't built around playing hunker down defense and be very patient for the winning goal or the goal to draw level.

Just a theory.

and whose fault is that? the manager ofcourse he should teach the team to play more than one style of play.

when it comes to europe we're reckless with our attack, attack, win, win mentality. we need to learn when to play smart and for the draw like the best european teams do.

hell, i hate to say it but wenger could learn alot from mourinho.

[Gunners11]

Billy, I agree with what you said. If you look at our results over the past few years, we are definately close or on the verge. Not to use them as an exscuse, but playing without a healthy Sol, Gilberto and Edu wasn't going to help us progress. I don't think it's necessary to change our style of play or formation for the CL, because we have been so close to going further (see giving up a goal in the final minutes to Chelsea), we just need to get that one break-through performance, and hopefully it comes next season.

[yossarian]

if that's what you think, then there's no need for managers at all. wake up ffs, wenger seems so arrogantly confident he probably doesn't watch tapes of the opponents at all. just show up with is usual system and hope for the best.

No, there's plenty for managers to do....during training/coaching....substitutions....changing tactics at halftime if needed....evaluating players to see who starts and who does not....evaluating players for possible transfers....

Shall I go on or do you want to continue being purposefully obtuse just for it's own sake?



plus i don't see wenger as the motivational type. what the ******** did he say at halftime to the team when we were 2-1 against manure?

I don't know. I wasn't there.


ffs man, the whole team played piss poor. yes kolo made two errors but it's hard to blame kolo for our exit. we didn't show in munich and we didn't show for the first half at highbury. which left us 45mins to score 2 goals without letting bayern score. that's a near impossible situation considering who we were playing.

Please point out where I said the rest of the team played well. I singled out Toure because his two mistakes lead directly to two goals and made things more difficult rather quickly. Of course, if the team as a whole had played better it would not have mattered.


and people this isn't the chelsea forum so stfu because he's entitled to his opinions, plus he makes some good points which i agree with.

Nice straw man. :rolleyes: I responded to his question with my opinions. He replied back with...."no Wenger's to blame" without providing any support/reasons...be it fact or opinion...for his post. Thus, my opinion of him changed to that he was not looking for a real discussion but was just trolling. I would've been glad to hear any real opinions from him. He didn't offer any.....but based on the way you like to engage in debate I can understand why you wouldn't be able to make the distinction.


i honestly don't think we'll win the CL with wenger, he just isn't good enough against the best. hopefully i'm wrong but it's unlikely.

Well, we appreciate the honesty....at least.

[nicephoras]

hell, i hate to say it but wenger could learn alot from mourinho.

Oh dear............does the Kangaroo Court have jurisdiction over this one? ;) :D :p

That being said, I actually agree with you. Wenger's strength are scouting, developing and moulding, not tactics. I had this argument with yossarian on our boards. That one was a lot longer and more serious. I'd find it, but can't be bothered.

[yossarian]

Oh dear............does the Kangaroo Court have jurisdiction over this one? ;) :D :p

That being said, I actually agree with you. Wenger's strength are scouting, developing and moulding, not tactics. I had this argument with yossarian on our boards. That one was a lot longer and more serious. I'd find it, but can't be bothered.

....and to recap for the folks at home.....I agreed that Wenger's not the best tactical manager in the world. I just disagree that his tactics are the only reason Arsenal has failed in the CL.

[antifan]

Wenger's strength are scouting, developing and moulding, not tactics.
I hate to say it, but i agree. I wonder if Wenger realizes this himself? If he does, he should get an assistant to specialize in tactics and substitutions and have faith enough to listen to his advice. If he doesn't realize this, he is still good enough at what he does to make any discussion of replacing him laughable, especially when prompted by a Spurs fan.

[nicephoras]

....and to recap for the folks at home.....I agreed that Wenger's not the best tactical manager in the world. I just disagree that his tactics are the only reason Arsenal has failed in the CL.
Well, "only reason" is something I'd never say. Tactically obtuse managers win sometimes too - Keegan almost won the EPL, after all, despite knowing less about tactics than I do about Tora Bora's economic policies.
What I do think, however, is that Wenger's obstinacy in not changing tactics more often hurts Arsenal in Europe.