Trade for a central defender?

[invinoveritas]

OK, after reading some of the articles and treads on how much fire power the Revs have, who would you trade to bolster the defense? Who is the weakest link here: TnT, Noonan, Dempsey, and who has the most trade value?

Also, who would you trade if not one of these three?

If we have surplus (I'm deliberately ignoring the USMNT callups we will have to suffer through this season), why not trade? I love these guys, and would hate to see any of them go, but why not? ;)


EDIT: And to throw this into the discussion...
Over on the Dallas boards there's been talk of them being the only team w/ a surplus on defenders.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178932

[Tobas]

OK, after reading some of the articles and treads on how much fire power the Revs have, who would you trade to bolster the defense? Who is the weakest link here: TnT, Noonan, Dempsey, and who has the most trade value? At this point, I can not see the Revs trading any of these three players for a defender. Twellman and Noonan are our only legit starters at forward at this point. We can not trade one without finding another good starter to partner up front with the other. Dempsey may already be our best midfielder and at this point. Plus, Dempsey should be one of the highest trade value players in MLS.

The players that Dallas is offering up would not help us that much. The Revs have a group of lower end defenders like this Dallas group. Jolley may be slightly better then some of our potential starters, but not by enough that would make a noticable impact.

Of the three players that I named, Noonan would be my first to trade. But, again, not until we find an acceptable replacement for him and then only for one of the better central defenders in MLS.

Basically, at this point I would be willing to trade about a 3rd round pick for Jolley. But, I do not think that we have a player that would be a fair trade for Jolley that we would not miss too much or has more upside. We have very good firepower, it just is not deep firepower.

[soccertim]

I thought that Nicol handled the situation well by drafting a few defenders and seeing if anyone panned out instead of trading for a defender, as it sounded like every other team hoped we were desperate enough to overpay for a central defender in a trade. Right now, I'd say we really don't have the depth up top to trade away Noonan, Twellman, or Dempsey. If he trade one of those 3 to get Jolley (the player Dallas wants to dump), you'd need to get back someone like Moor or Goodson, assuming Nicol's still high on him. I don't think that Jolley would be a huge improvement over John, and I wouldn't trade one of our best players for someone of his caliber.

[invinoveritas]

So it appears that we trust in Nichol's way of doing things, his way of building the team, and trusting that once again maybe a rookie will step up and fill the need. Can Parkhurst or Riley do it? I have heard very little but it seems that Nichol is high on both of them. Youth combined with Llamosa guile could be a good mix.

[ghsdpu]

I don't think Dallas would much care for the kind of package I'd ask from them in return for the likes of TnT, Noonan or Dempsey.

I'd be very much interested in Steve Jolley for the right price, though.

[br13]

So it appears that we trust in Nichol's way of doing things, his way of building the team, and trusting that once again maybe a rookie will step up and fill the need. Can Parkhurst or Riley do it? I have heard very little but it seems that Nichol is high on both of them. Youth combined with Llamosa guile could be a good mix.
I've read a number of posisive reports on both Parkhurst and Riley the past couple of months...but there's always a lot of spin pre-season. Although neither carried the pedigree of a Chad Marshall, it is noteworthy to look at what the Crew accomplished in the back last year with a "savvy vet" and "up-and-coming-rookie" paired up in central defense. And that's not to discount John, I think he's a fairly quality MLS CB.

I don't think Dallas would much care for the kind of package I'd ask from them in return for the likes of TnT, Noonan or Dempsey.

I'd be very much interested in Steve Jolley for the right price, though.
Who are the Revs projecting as the starter at LB? Heaps?/Franchino?/Leonard? Would there be any interest in a Jolley/Gbandi pairing? I don't know that those two could pry Noonan away, but what do you guys think?

[Ultra Peanut]

I don't think Dallas would much care for the kind of package I'd ask from them in return for the likes of TnT, Noonan or Dempsey.

"Eddie Johnson. Also, once your new stadium is finished, you have to ship it here brick by brick and rebuild it for us."

[ghsdpu]

Who are the Revs projecting as the starter at LB? Heaps?/Franchino?/Leonard? Would there be any interest in a Jolley/Gbandi pairing? I don't know that those two could pry Noonan away, but what do you guys think?

I think that if we added a Steve Jolley, we could swing Avery John wide left and go with a Leonard / Jolley / Llamosa? / John back four. Wouldn't add much to the attack, but I don't think they'd surrender quite as many goals as they have in the past few years.

So, no... I'd have no interest in Chris Gbandi. And you're right in that Jolley and Gbandi wouldn't be enough to get me to trade Pat Noonan.

[Aljarov]

There's a lot of noise about Parkhurst.

He may yet get his chance.

I don't think the Rev's have anything to worry about at the back. They're stronger just for cutting Steve Howey!

I'd think Jolley would be a decent option, but I certainly wouldn't look to over pay for him. My valuation : a 3rd Rounder or a squad player.

I wouldn't touch Gbandi.

Alex Yi may have upside but noone knows where he is right now. It certainly appears he's not starting material yet, if ever.

[Jon Martin]

I'm going to step in front of the flame-thrower, and say not to bother trading for a journeyman central defender. We don't need or want Yi, Jolley, Gbandi, or any other average MLS player. We want a championship team. The only players we would want are the ones that no team would give up for a price we would pay. Let Nicol shop around. Better no new faces than another Howie, or even another John.

[stopper4]

I'm going to step in front of the flame-thrower, and say not to bother trading for a journeyman central defender. We don't need or want Yi, Jolley, Gbandi, or any other average MLS player. We want a championship team. The only players we would want are the ones that no team would give up for a price we would pay. Let Nicol shop around. Better no new faces than another Howie, or even another John.

'Championship team', huh?

2003 Champ Smurfs: I wouldn't trade for Craig Waibel or Chris Roner, but they're champs.

2004 Champ (somehow) DC: Ryan Nelsen, yes, but I wouldn't trade for Namoff, Prideaux, or Petke. Stokes isn't good enough to be a dev defender on Dallas' roster. But they're 'champs'.

I get the Howie bashing, but what on earth do you have against Avery John? Very solid MLS level player.

[ghsdpu]

I'm going to step in front of the flame-thrower, and say not to bother trading for a journeyman central defender. We don't need or want Yi, Jolley, Gbandi, or any other average MLS player. We want a championship team. The only players we would want are the ones that no team would give up for a price we would pay. Let Nicol shop around. Better no new faces than another Howie, or even another John.
Among the players who have started in defense for MLS Cup-winning teams:

2004 - Mike Petke, D.C. United
2004 - Bryan Namoff, D.C. United
2003 - Eddie Robinson, San Jose
2003 - Craig Waibel, San Jose
2002 - Alexi Lalas, Los Angeles
2002 - Tyrone Marshall, Los Angeles
2002 - Ezra Hendrickson, Los Angeles
2001 - Jimmy Conrad, San Jose
2000 - Peter Vermes, Kansas City
2000 - Brandon Prixdeaux, Kansas City

A LOT of journeyman defenders in this group. I'm not saying someone like Steve Jolley is the "cure" for our defensive woes, but he'd probably make us a better team.

[JMMUSA8]

Among the players who have started in defense for MLS Cup-winning teams:

2004 - Mike Petke, D.C. United
2004 - Bryan Namoff, D.C. United
2003 - Eddie Robinson, San Jose
2003 - Craig Waibel, San Jose
2002 - Alexi Lalas, Los Angeles
2002 - Tyrone Marshall, Los Angeles
2002 - Ezra Hendrickson, Los Angeles
2001 - Jimmy Conrad, San Jose
2000 - Peter Vermes, Kansas City
2000 - Brandon Prixdeaux, Kansas City

A LOT of journeyman defenders in this group. I'm not saying someone like Steve Jolley is the "cure" for our defensive woes, but he'd probably make us a better team.

I'd only take one player off that list, and that's Conrad.

[stopper4]

Among the players who have started in defense for MLS Cup-winning teams:

2003 - Eddie Robinson, San Jose
2002 - Alexi Lalas, Los Angeles
2002 - Tyrone Marshall, Los Angeles
2001 - Jimmy Conrad, San Jose



Eddie Robinson was arguably MOM that game. Amazing job on Damani Ralph and Razov.

Alexi Lalas was the best defender in the league in 2002.

Tryone Marshall -may not be an All Star, surely better than a 'journeyman'.

Jimmy Conrad-may not have been a world beater in '01, arguably the best defender in the league, now.

Peter Vermes was pretty damn good, too.

[ghsdpu]

I'd only take one player off that list, and that's Conrad.
Then, not surprisingly, you're missing the point.

The point is that you need reliable, dependable role players like Steve Jolley as much as you need the stars.

Eddie Robinson was arguably MOM that game. Amazing job on Damani Ralph and Razov.
Good for Eddie. He's still a pretty average MLS defender.

Alexi Lalas was the best defender in the league in 2002.
Well, Carlos Bocanegra was voted the league's best defender that year, but Alexi was named to the league's best 11. I had forgotten about that.

Tryone Marshall -may not be an All Star, surely better than a 'journeyman'.
I believe he's played on three teams in seven years, and hasn't even been an automatic starter since he got to Los Angeles. That's pretty mediocre, although I think he's pretty decent.

Jimmy Conrad-may not have been a world beater in '01, arguably the best defender in the league, now.
But he was a role player in 2001.

Peter Vermes was pretty damn good, too.
Not in 2001, he wasn't. He had moved on to being OK. Garcia, McKeon, and even Conrad were the more important defensive cogs in that KC team, IMO.

[HiBall]

that whole post seems to miss the point in my opinion. (or im missing the post's point). the question is not whether there are a few token mediocre defenders (and even insinuating that about some of the players on that list seems off base) mixed in to a championship teams defensive corps, but how a championship team's defensive starters as a whole stack up against our defenders.

i think it would be much more interesting to see the full list of defensive starters for each championship team as opposed to one or two who may or may not be up to speed.

i would nominate myself to be less lazy and pull out those names, but im at work and probably shouldn't even be writing this post.

[stopper4]

2004: worthless United:
Bryan Carrol (stopper), Mike Petke, Ryan Nelsen, Bryan Namoff

03' Smurfs
Eddie Robinson, Troy Dayak, Craig Waibel (Chris Roner 51), Jeff Agoos

02' Gals
Alexi Lalas, Danny Califf, Tyrone Marshall, Ezra Hendrickson

01' Smurfs
Jimmy Conrad, Troy Dayak, Jeff Agoos, Wade Barrett

[Jon Martin]

Craig Waibel or Chris Roner....Ryan Nelsen, Namoff, Prideaux, or Petke....Stokes....but what on earth do you have against Avery John? Very solid MLS level player.
I have nothing at all against Avery John, but adding another Avery John will not improve the defense in a team whose defense was well below average last year. He is an adequate, medium-fast man-marker, and relatively mistake-free, but not a great passer, and not a force in the air.

Namoff or Petke would improve the current Revs defense; Namoff in particular is underrated. I also have a better opinion of Robinson and Conrad, and a worse opinion of Jolley (as a player) than ghsdpu, but that's not the point.

The point is that there are a limited number of roster spots. We have a number of warm bodies already; what we really need - now that we seem to have the cap space - is a game-changing centerback. Although we are thin at centerback now, we would be arguably better in the long run to wait for the right individual than to invest in a defender who peaked years ago.

I have gotten used to the idea of starting with:

Heaps/Parkhurst/Riley Llamosa/Parkhurst John Leonard/Franchino/Riley

I know people are sick of waiting for a fast regular season start, but hiring a Rev version of Alex Yi or Steve Jolley is not the answer.

[ghsdpu]

I have nothing at all against Avery John, but adding another Avery John will not improve the defense in a team whose defense was well below average last year. He is an adequate, medium-fast man-marker, and relatively mistake-free, but not a great passer, and not a force in the air.
If Jolley is the ONLY defensive player the Revs add, then I agree... he won't be much of a help. But if you add Jolley AND that dominant central defensive organizing presence and move Avery John wide left, then I think we're starting to get somewhere.

The point is that there are a limited number of roster spots. We have a number of warm bodies already; what we really need - now that we seem to have the cap space - is a game-changing centerback. Although we are thin at centerback now, we would be arguably better in the long run to wait for the right individual than to invest in a defender who peaked years ago.
You're assuming the warm bodies we have in defense right now can get the job done even with the game-changing center back. I make no such assumption. Jay Heaps and Joe Franchino are bottom of the barrel MLS defenders at this point in their careers.

I think Marshall Leonard below average at best and that Carlos Llamosa is slow, overrated, and an injury waiting to happen. The idea of starting Parkhurst and Riley in defense quite frankly scares the crap out of me. That leaves Avery John as the only proven, reliable MLS caliber defender on the roster. Why this doesn't bother the "in Stevie we trust despite the fact that his career record is below .500" crowd is beyond me.

I have gotten used to the idea of starting with:

Heaps/Parkhurst/Riley Llamosa/Parkhurst John Leonard/Franchino/Riley
I've gotten used to this idea as well. The idea disgusts me, but I've gotten used to it, just as I've gotten used to the idea that the organization is painfully slow when it comes to addressing their most pressing needs.

[JMMUSA8]

Getting a defender for the sake of getting a defender accomplishes nothing, unless he's good, and only Steve Nicol says who's good enough for the Revs back line.

Steve now has a mix of role players, veterans, and rookies on the back line. Their defense will improve. Last year we had the argument that there was no back up for Heaps, and it showed. Now we have a back up for every position on defense, and I am more comfortable this year then last year.


Plus the defense wont be seeing much of the ball with 7 of the best players in the league in front of them.