Will Bruce use MLSers against Mexico?

[InnocentBystander]

This topic came up when the most recent camp was announced for the Colombia and Honduras friendlies. I still don't think there is a good answer, even after the win over Colombia.

Here's what's puzzling... Why would Arena bother bringing only MLS players through high altitude training in New Mexico if he doesn't plan on playing them in Azteca?

My guess is that only two of three of the MLSers in camp right now are likely to see any playing time against Mexico, Mastroeni for sure and maybe Dempsey as a sub. The other Clint? Ralston? I really doubt either will start, but they might be subs.

On another thread, a BS poster said that Arena might use a larger number of MLSers against Mexico and then use the 'A' squad european-based players in Birmingham. I'm skeptical about this too. I understand the reasoning - Arena doesn't want a burnt-out squad playing the Guats, and the Guat match is a must win for us, so he might rest some of the euros against Mexico.

The only problem is... Arena hasn't used that strategy is the past. Typically he chooses players who are in shape to play two matches in a week.

I looked back in the history of WCQs to find a parallel. In the '01 WCQs, there were back-to-back matches against Jamaica (in Jamaica) and T&T (in the US). Bruce started pretty much the same 11 for both matches.

Here were the lineups:

US v Jamaica
6/16/2001 at Kingston

Kasey Keller

Steve Cherundolo --- Carlos Llamosa --- Jeff Agoos --- David Regis

Tony Sanneh --- Chris Armas --- Claudio Reyna --- Earnie Stewart

Joe-Max Moore --- Brian McBride



US v Trinidad and Tobago
6/20/2001 at Foxboro

Kasey Keller

Steve Cherundolo --- Eddie Pope --- Jeff Agoos --- David Regis

Tony Sanneh --- Chris Armas --- Claudio Reyna --- Earnie Stewart

Ante Razov --- Jovan Kirovski


There was another back-to-back series later in the Fall. We played Honduras in DC (9/1/2001) and then had to fly to Costa Rica three days later. Even though the formations and tactics were very different, the starting lineups were the same except for three players.

So what MLSers really have a shot in the upcoming match against Mexico?

[InnocentBystander]

I forgot EJ who will certainly start against Mexico and the Guats. But that's still only two starters practicing in the current camp....

[RUUDVN]

i didn't realize that EJ has already gotten promotion .....

[SoccerFreak]

Here's what's puzzling... Why would Arena bother bringing only MLS players through high altitude training in New Mexico if he doesn't plan on playing them in Azteca?



I was actually curious about this too when I read about it a few days ago. I thought that Arena was going to bring in some of the Euro players for the friendly against Honduras though.

[denver_mugwamp]

I was actually curious about this too when I read about it a few days ago. I thought that Arena was going to bring in some of the Euro players for the friendly against Honduras though.

The European players will only be released a few days before the Mexico game. There's two ways to approach playing at altitude--train at altitude for a couple of weeks or else show up right before the game. Obviously Bruce is planning on using both techniques.

BTW, the 2001 lineups were pretty interesting, but mostly because there's only 3 players on the list that would merit starting in Mexico City--Eddie Pope, Kasey Keller, and Steve Cherundolo. I guess it shows how far we've come.

[nath7998]

Here's what's puzzling... Why would Arena bother bringing only MLS players through high altitude training in New Mexico if he doesn't plan on playing them in Azteca?

He needs to bring in players for the next 10-12 months to evaluate who he's taking (hopefully) to Germany, and his Euro-based players are currently playing for their clubs and are only required to be released 72 hours (IIRC) before the match.

My guess is that only two of three of the MLSers in camp right now are likely to see any playing time against Mexico, Mastroeni for sure and maybe Dempsey as a sub. The other Clint? Ralston? I really doubt either will start, but they might be subs.

You caught EJ. Pope will likely get the start, IMO. Here's how I see it:

------------Keller
Cherundolo, Gibbs, Pope, Bocanegra
Donovan, Mastroeni, Lewis, Beasley
----------McBride, EJ

On another thread, a BS poster said that Arena might use a larger number of MLSers against Mexico and then use the 'A' squad european-based players in Birmingham. I'm skeptical about this too. I understand the reasoning - Arena doesn't want a burnt-out squad playing the Guats, and the Guat match is a must win for us, so he might rest some of the euros against Mexico.

The only problem is... Arena hasn't used that strategy is the past. Typically he chooses players who are in shape to play two matches in a week.

I think who BA starts in the B'ham match will depend upon each players fitness following the Azteca match. They'll each undergo a test to determine if they're capapble of performing.

As for playing two different squads, I wouldn't put anything bast Arena, but I hope he puts our best XI out there for both matches and that means a Euro-heavy squad in Azteca.

I looked back in the history of WCQs to find a parallel. In the '01 WCQs, there were back-to-back matches against Jamaica (in Jamaica) and T&T (in the US). Bruce started pretty much the same 11 for both matches.


Great research, great thread IB.

Your examples do not include a trip to Azteca. That venue will drain our players much more than those stated. As a couple of the Euro-based players will be broke after the Mexico match, I expect a few new faces in lineup for the match in B'ham.

So what MLSers really have a shot in the upcoming match against Mexico?

As for MLS'ers on the roster, in addition to Pope, Mastroeni, and EJ, I think Dempsey is a good bet as well.

As for having a 'shot' he'll hopefully take at least one MLS keeper, Busch or Cannon. If he takes 3 keepers, that leaves 9 roster spots for the 'on the bubble' group.

Note: A healthy Reyna could change things. Though he likely won't be fit enough for Azteca, I could see him anchoring the midfield in B'ham.

Courtesy of www.USATODAY.com:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/soccer/national/2005-02-07-friedel-retires_x.htm#roster

U.S. roster for Wednesday's World Cup qualifier at Trinidad and Tobago:

Goalkeepers: Joe Cannon (Colorado), Marcus Hahnemann (Reading, England), Kasey Keller (Borussia Moenchengladbach, Germany)

Defenders: Chris Albright (Los Angeles), Carlos Bocanegra (Fulham, England), Gregg Berhalter (Energie Cottbus, Germany), Steve Cherundolo (Hannover 96, Germany), Jimmy Conrad (Kansas City), Cory Gibbs (Feyenoord, Netherlands), Frankie Hejduk (Columbus), Eddie Pope (Salt Lake)

Midfielders: DaMarcus Beasley (PSV Eindhoven, Netherlands), Clint Dempsey (New England), Landon Donovan (Bayer Leverkusen, Germany), Eddie Lewis (Preston North End, England), Pablo Mastroeni (Colorado), Clint Mathis (Salt Lake), Ben Olsen (DC United)

Forwards: Brian Ching (San Jose), Eddie Johnson (Dallas), Brian McBride (Fulham, England), Taylor Twellman (New England), Josh Wolff (Kansas City)

[nath7998]

BTW, the 2001 lineups were pretty interesting, but mostly because there's only 3 players on the list that would merit starting in Mexico City--Eddie Pope, Kasey Keller, and Steve Cherundolo. I guess it shows how far we've come.

Yea, I looked at those lineups and thought zoinks! :D

[sch2383]

I think Bruce will use MLS players against Mexico, but we are more likely to see more of them against Guatemala. I also think that Bruce will bring some younger players with him to Mexico City to introduce them to the atmosphere.

[NoSix]

FWIW, Myernick on Inside Soccer radio a couple of weeks back said that they planned to use a primarily MLS side against Mexico, and a primarily Euro-based side against Guatemala. That would be consistent with the training regimen (or he could just be playing mind games with our friends South of the border).

[nath7998]

FWIW, Myernick on Inside Soccer radio a couple of weeks back said that they planned to use a primarily MLS side against Mexico, and a primarily Euro-based side against Guatemala. That would be consistent with the training regimen (or he could just be playing mind games with our friends South of the border).

Thanks for the info.

Interesting in that if he does go with the altitude-acclimated MLS'ers, it gives a little insight into how important that aspect of the preparation is. And how highly he regards the MLS'ers.

[Adam Zebrowski]

I saw a story somewhere last week, where arena was happy with reyna's performance, and ihis inclusion in ONE of the hex matches has very probable, although BOTH was very unlikely....

still, donovan and beasley will play against mexico....

so here's my line-up given the mls edge at azteca....

keller
hejduk pope gibbs bocanegra
mastroeni dempsey
donovan beasley
EJ and Wolff

against guatemala:
keller
cherundolo onyewu gibbs bocanegra
reyna lewis
donovan beasley
EJ and Mcbride

[InnocentBystander]

...

You caught EJ. Pope will likely get the start, IMO. Here's how I see it:

------------Keller
Cherundolo, Gibbs, Pope, Bocanegra
Donovan, Mastroeni, Lewis, Beasley
----------McBride, EJ

...

Your examples do not include a trip to Azteca. That venue will drain our players much more than those stated. As a couple of the Euro-based players will be broke after the Mexico match, I expect a few new faces in lineup for the match in B'ham.



I agree that Pope will start in Mexico if he's healthy. He's not currently in the camp right now, so if Bruce and Myernik really believe in altitude training, it's going to be a tough decision about starting Pope. He's not in season form and he's not training at altitude. But, you know, I'd bet that Pope starts anyway... which makes me wonder how much importance the coaching staff puts on high altitude training. I'll get to that in an response to another poster.

But good point about past trips to Azteca. I went back to look at the date and timing of the last WCQ in Mexico. It was 7/1/2001, about 10 days after the Foxboro WCQ against T&T. Painful memories. Here's the starting line up. What a bland, uncohesive group that was down the center of the field. Armas, Kirovski, and Moore had no chemistry and no possession.


Kasey Keller

Steve Cherundolo --- Carlos Llamosa --- Jeff Agoos --- David Regis

Tony Sanneh --- Chris Armas --- Jovan Kirovski --- Earnie Stewart

Joe-Max Moore --- Ante Razov


More to the point... there were only two changes from the starting line up a week and a half earlier in Foxboro. One change was because Reyna had accumulated yellow cards (IIRC). Goes to show how conservative Arena was in making changes back then.

What I don't remember was whether the team did any special training between the Foxboro match against T&T and the match in Mexico. I don't think they did. But I also don't think lack of altitude training was the reason we played so badly the last time around.

[InnocentBystander]

FWIW, Myernick on Inside Soccer radio a couple of weeks back said that they planned to use a primarily MLS side against Mexico, and a primarily Euro-based side against Guatemala. That would be consistent with the training regimen (or he could just be playing mind games with our friends South of the border).

Interesting... I'd bet it's the second explanation... They're playing head games with Lavolpe.

[ColomboZelaschi]

On another thread, a BS poster said that Arena might use a larger number of MLSers against Mexico and then use the 'A' squad european-based players in Birmingham. I'm skeptical about this too. I understand the reasoning - Arena doesn't want a burnt-out squad playing the Guats, and the Guat match is a must win for us, so he might rest some of the euros against Mexico.

The only problem is... Arena hasn't used that strategy is the past. Typically he chooses players who are in shape to play two matches in a week.
Mister Bystander, what we are witnessing is a new paradigm based on the growing depth of the USMNT player pool. Your allusions to the past, though correct, are no longer relevant. Because Arena has so many options, he is able to stategize how to match up with Mexico and Guatemala with say 17 to 18 players. While Mexico can do the same, lesser powers like Guatemala will have to rely on their top 11 to 13. This gap gives the US a leg up against Guatemala. If Bruce is looking at the pair of matches and has a goal of one point at worst and six at best, then he will look to the Guatemala game to insure he achieves his goal. The growing and ever deepening player pool provides Arena with advantages precisely at moments like these. With the upcoming turn around from Mexico City to Birmingham, he will start both games with fresh legs and, in the Mexico case, a group that has trained specifically for this match (e.g. altitude, smog and hornet nests.)

My reply to your musings is this: Bruce's decisions of the past are less a guide to the present, and are more a sign of how much the US has progressed at the most competitive level. I hope the MLSers get their shot. Mix it up. Why not? We have never won in the jaws of Montezuma's tequila breath.

[Serie Zed]

MLS players are out of season. He wants them there to get them in shape. And to get a good long look at who can do what. With who.

My guess is that we'll see mostly Euros, as usual. But that one or two more than usual might sit either in Azteca or Birmingham to keep fresh legs on the field.

[Cweedchop]

FWIW, Myernick on Inside Soccer radio a couple of weeks back said that they planned to use a primarily MLS side against Mexico, and a primarily Euro-based side against Guatemala. That would be consistent with the training regimen (or he could just be playing mind games with our friends South of the border).


This to me would make the most practical sense considering the MLS heavy squad will spend considerable time training at altitude.

With the quick turnaround, and the Guat match being a home game, it makes perfect sense to do this..

This is an interesting tactic being employed by Arena and Co.

I think ultimately the coaching staff is looking at a minimum of three points out of these two matches and doing in this manner (MLS-Mexico Europe-Guat) is probably the best way of doing it.

A lot of hardcore fans won't like the fact that Arena is possibly playing soft in Mexico (with honestly our best squad and chance to ever win in Azteca) and bulking up the team for the home match, but if the MLS guys can play as well as they did against Colombia in Azteca, maybe they can steal 3 points, though it's highly doubtful..

If this indeed does pan out like this, I think this speaks volumes about the depth of talent that Arena has accrued and the confidence he has in the American MLS player.

[Joel Goodson]

I don't really see how we can afford not to field our best 11, period. The European based players are in mid-season form and should play. I don't like the idea of fielding essentially two different squads. Any Mexico match should be played to win with 1 pt the minimum.

Keller

Cherundolo Gibbs Berhalter Bocanegra

Donovan Mastroeni Beasley Lewis

Johnson McBride

[eplkewell]

Cannon, Busch, Hejduk, Pope, Johnson, Ralston, Mastroeni, and Mathis are all MLS players with a good shot of making the team against Mexico. All of them (except the keepers) have a chance at starting, or at least playing significantly between the Mexico and Guatemala games.

[Brownswan]

Stoning Mexico in Azteca for a point with an MLS squad, then getting 3 vs. Guatemala in Birmingham with the Euros would be a tactical victory beyond reckoning -- and the strategic implications would be enormous. Mexico would be in a daze trying to figure what to expect on the return in Columbus, and the rest of the Hex would be looking for ways around us to qualify -- playing for a point even at home, while working for the max off the rest of the field.

It's a gamble, but if it works we gain tremendous momentum, not only through the Hex, but into the Gold Cup. And if the MLS side loses, it's only against our B side -- a nice "bird" to Mexico -- with 3 points still possible in B'ham. And Mexico is still left with Columbus to worry about.

I hope it goes this way; I like the odds.

[Cweedchop]

I don't really see how we can afford not to field our best 11, period. The European based players are in mid-season form and should play. I don't like the idea of fielding essentially two different squads. Any Mexico match should be played to win with 1 pt the minimum.



First of all, it's a marathon, not a sprint and considering every team will probably come out of Mexico without a point, it doesn't really mean all that much.. The mere fact that an all MLS squad is being thought about (or nearly all MLS squad) doesn't mean the death knell that it would have just a few years ago.. I fully expect this tactic from Arena to throw Mexico for a loop. You also have to consider that this team will be playing at altitude and they will tire rather quickly, which leads to.......

Secondly, we have a game less than 3 days later.. Remember, this match is on a Sunday while the rest of the Hex is playing on Saturday.. Therefore, it's even less rest for key players than usual.. You can't expect Donovan, McBride, Beasley and other Euro based players to be at optimum efficiency after playing in Mexico less than 72 hours earlier.. Saving some key personnel for the more important match against Guatemala is what should be considered here..

And lastly, I think we as a soccer nation have gotten to a point where a strategic decision like this will be beneficial in the long run for qualifying.. If this is pulled off in any way (meaning a minimum of 4 pts), then there really should be an end to these annoying "Fire Arena" threads that always pop up when the US doesn't get the desired result or performs in a satisfactory manner..

However, if this ends up being a failure (no points or 1 point from the two matches) then there is reasonable doubt to the thought that Arena was playing these two games recklessly.. With that being said though, considering all the factors (altitude, small recovery window, winnable game at home), if this is indeed the thinking of the coaching staff, I am fully behind it because it's getting to Germany that ultimately matters and if we can find a way to do it based on these decisions, as stated earlier by others, we simply will be a handful for other teams to deal with..

Well, we already are, but their jobs will have just gotten that much more difficult.