Wenger faces reality, Ferguson ignores it

[reasoner]

http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/arsenal/story.jsp?story=618814 reads above headline.

Above link says about af's denial and I have to admit for once I agree with Lawton (writer in link) whom I always feel write bad bias about Wenger at every opportunity.

Note: I declare this is as a constructive post and do expect a discussion on the matter.

Question is it time for Alex Ferguson to go? So I don't have to write afmu anymore.

[xfactor857]

It seems that the writer didn't watch the match. "...Ferguson had sent Roy Keane, Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes and Gary Neville out into San Siro." (http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/arsenal/story.jsp?story=618814) I only wish Neville was out there.

[haven]

Assertion of opinion without supporting facts and inferences is meaningless. This author, to be fair, is better than most. Yet he also strings together contradiction.

He argues that United simply weren't good enough, which Alex Ferguson failed to recognize. Yet he also argues that Ferguson erred by fielding a poor attacking formation in the first match. Quite frankly, if your side is drastically inferior, which his comment pretty much necessarily implies, you never attack. You play as a shell, and hope for a mistake. This is true even if your opponent's relative weakness is in defense (See Crystal Palace).

What does he really say? Precious little. Especially not enough to encourage anybody to dismiss a manager of immense reputation. The writer has made a conclusion, yet fails to offer supporting evidence commensurate with the enormity of his argument. At best, he's offered evidence that Ferguson failed: (a) competently manage a single CL tie and (b) refuses to admit the weaknesses of his side. Nevermind that such might be managerial nothingspeak.

The highly ironic thing is, I actually agree with him. I would assert that Ferguson has caused a steady decline of United ever since 2001. He transformed the team to fit the European game. When that led to league decline, he panicked. But made piece-meal decisions in which he lumped together players who just don't fit, ultimately leaving us with a lop-sided squad that neither is meant for the EPL nor the CL.

Regardless, if I wanted to publish an article advocating the removal of Alex Ferguson, I'd be damned well sure to (a) publish a theory that actually supports his removal and (b) to furnish sufficient evidence to back that up.

Nothing but a hack.

[The Jitty Slitter]

I would assert that Ferguson has caused a steady decline of United ever since 2001. He transformed the team to fit the European game. When that led to league decline, he panicked. But made piece-meal decisions in which he lumped together players who just don't fit, ultimately leaving us with a lop-sided squad that neither is meant for the EPL nor the CL.

i would agree that some purchases and strategic decisions have not come off, however you also have to give wieght to the fact there was really only one heavy weight side in the prem during the period United dominated. Not to belittle their achievement, but arsenal amanged to engineer a very strong side which could compete, and now chelsea are on the scene. So yes, ii think united are a bit weaker than they were, but 2 other sides are much stronger than they were since 2001.

[bigtoga]

I'm not afriad to say it - it's getting nigh time that Al should move upstairs and let a new manager come in. His team selection and decision making in the past two seasons has, IMO, cost us games and quite possibly titles and/or finals appearances.

Long Live Al! But it's time for a new manager and Al to wear a suit...

[johno]

Before I could suggest its time for SAF to go... I'll have to give him a season where his best two players don't miss significant time.. ie... Rio at the start and Ruud in the middle... We had to play Ruud against Milan because he was our best player and also because of the injuries to our other strikers, but our team was out of whack when Milan came calling, despite a good run in the league we were relying on Rooney's brilliance and not on great team play... we also lacked a target man who was fit and sharp which is absolutely vital to the 4-3-3 or the 4-4-1-1. When things go right for a bit regarding injuries and player availability and we don't win 2 trophies I will consider SAF being past it.. but not until then...

We've got to realize that the EPL is much stronger than it was when we were dominating and that its not like we won the CL every other year... we went out against a cheating Porto (yes I said it) and Milan... oh wow... we must really suck... its not that simple... remember that we also had massive injury problems around the time we went out last year. Not time to ditch SAF yet...

[The Jitty Slitter]

We've got to realize that the EPL is much stronger than it was when we were dominating and that its not like we won the CL every other year... we went out against a cheating Porto (yes I said it) and Milan... oh wow... we must really suck...

Exactly. The EPL is way stronger. Although the two champions league train crashes owe themselves to two awful goal keeping errors (Howard and Porto, Carrol and AC) at least to the tune of 50%. For that SAF presumably has to answer.

[prk166]

" another swift dismissal from Europe"

So the writer is asserting that making it to the knockout stages consitutes swift dismissal. What does he have to say about the teams that didn't make it out of the group phase? Or worse, Borrusia Dortumnd?

[Motterman]

" another swift dismissal from Europe"

So the writer is asserting that making it to the knockout stages consitutes swift dismissal. What does he have to say about the teams that didn't make it out of the group phase? Or worse, Borrusia Dortumnd?

Yeah, going out to the defending European Champions isn't the worst thing. They took us out of our game and with our number 1 striker lacking sharpness, it looked bad... but, a couple of chances converted and we aren't talking about this.

[prk166]

"Ferguson had sent Roy Keane, Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes and Gary Neville out into San Siro. "

Hello mr. writer, ever employ a fact checker?

[prk166]

"At Old Trafford he sent Wayne Rooney alone against the brains trust of Milan's defence, an aberration that abandoned United's best chance - a sustained assault on a defence which, for all its accumulation of wisdom, has to be most at risk against intelligently applied pace and power."

Fancy words but a bunch of smoke? What constitutes a "sustained assault"?

And what defence in the world is not "most at risk" when it comes to "intelligently applied pace and power"?

[prk166]

"This will surely fuel the argument that the Ferguson genius for motivation - and resurrection - has run its course."

Only in beer-induced pub talk and for barrell-scraping sports columnists.

[nicephoras]

Yeah, going out to the defending European Champions isn't the worst thing. They took us out of our game and with our number 1 striker lacking sharpness, it looked bad... but, a couple of chances converted and we aren't talking about this.

Well, defending champions of previous year, but yes. I don't think its cause for alarm; you caught a Milan team that has probably been the best side in Europe for about 3 years. As their players fade (and they are a team built to win now) that'll be a team that moves off the peak.
I don't think we'd have panicked if we lost to Barca this past Tuesday. Its a loss to Barcelona and Milan, not an exit in the group stages due to a loss to Rosenborg.

[bigtoga]

Yeah, going out to the defending European Champions isn't the worst thing. They took us out of our game and with our number 1 striker lacking sharpness, it looked bad... but, a couple of chances converted and we aren't talking about this.First, they aren't the defending champs. Second they were without their #1 striker over *both* legs and they still scored two massive goals.

Got any better excuses?

:D

[Achtung]

Got any better excuses?

:D

Well, if you want to play that game (;)), one goal was off a terrible keeper error, so its not like they smacked us around or anything.

That said, its always really disappointing to go out having scored zero goals over a two-legged tie. They didn't create a whole lot more chances than we did, but they converted and that's what matters. If you're really looking for an excuse, I'm still going to point to our lack of creativity and possession in the midfield.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Got any better excuses?

How about having only 1 fully fit forward out of 5?

[Omar23033]

How about having only 1 fully fit forward out of 5?

But still, Milan bossed the midfield.. and when Giggs went out in the second leg CAFU attacked from RB

We lacked sharpness, did'nt attack all out, and Milan were just better

[listen_up_fergie]

The fact is that when we won the Champions League back in 1999, most of the players in our squad were at their prime: Giggs, Keane, Stam, Yorke, Cole, Solksjaer, Beckham, Gary Neville, Irwin...and that for me was a key factor. Fergie may have said that the current squad is better than the 1999 squad, but I think its more in terms of potential. I can foresee us winning a Champions League in three years' time when Rooney and Ronaldo are nearing their prime, our youngsters would have made it through the ranks, and by which point hopefully we'd have found replacements for our players who are now past their prime (Keane, Scholes, Giggs).
M160RA (http://m160ra.blogspot.com)

[nicephoras]

How about having only 1 fully fit forward out of 5?

What's wrong with Rooney??

[listen_up_fergie]

What's wrong with Rooney??

I think he meant Ruud was the one not fully fit :rolleyes: