The morning after the night before. In depth analysis of our team.

[Dark Savante]

So then. We are out of Europe and aren’t likely to win the league leaving us with ‘only’ the F.A Cup to go for, for the second season running.. The question is: what do we have to do become genuine CL challengers again?

People are talking about wholesale changes to the team/squad and while I think some of it is going too far - you don’t dismantle an entire first team in one summer. We’ve only just settled into some kind of true form for the first time in almost 2years. We dismantle too quickly, we lose whatever chemistry we’ve just created.

I do believe it is time to sort out the squad though. It has been 2seasons since we bought in a batch of players and most of them.. in fact all of them sans Ronaldo and Rooney don’t look like they will make it here. We need an effective and competitive squad first and foremost. Our first team know there is no competition for their spots and all of us know our first (best) xi without even considering the squad as a whole. This needs to change and at the same time integrate Keane’s successor into the set-up of the club.

Considering our squad as a whole I can see no problem in cleaning out a lot of the bench. They’re not offering us anything and are not doing the job when given a shot. I think only Fletcher and Smith can even push for a spot in the first xi.

These players should be in serious consideration when we think about selling:

Saha
O’Shea
Fortune
Silvestre
Carroll
Miller
Kleberson(!?!)
Bellion

We have to generate funds and clear out house. Our mainstays are in serious need of assistance now and although I think they can cut it in the EPL for another season, but the CL is a big no-no. If we look at the teams already through to the QF’s we see our midfield has a combined age of 28.5..and that is only because Ronaldo at 20 brings the average down by a huge amount.

Chelsea: Makelele, Duff, Lampard, Robben (as a four) have a total age of: 25.75 – (Tiago and Cole actually bring it down further.).
Milan: Pirlo, Gattsuo, Seedorf, Kaka’ = 25.25 (their bench is full of experience)
Lyon: Essien, Juninho P. Malouda, Nilmar = 24.25 (is It any surprise that they have the most energetic midfield in Europe?)

A further analysis of the winning midfield’s can be made after today’s matches. How much to bet the ages of the midfields that go through averages mid 20’s? ..incidentally when we won the CL 6yrs ago our midfield had a combined age of 25…. I think it is the only area of the pitch that the whole of Europe are in agreement with. Energy is essential and for certain we will never win it again with our current midfield, sadly.

We need a new keeper. A successor for Keano. A CB. A Winger and a proper penetrative CAM. Whether we get all that in one Summer remains to be seen, but I think it is possible if we sort out our bench and slowly integrate the replacements (in midfield) over a season. A new Goalie and CB should be brought into the 1st xi straight away imo.

After yesterday’s game what do you think we need? And more importantly, what do you think is realistic over one Summer, given our money situation and the fact you cannot just dump 5 players straight into a 1st team in one go? Who would you like to see sold? Etc, etc.

[Father Ted]

Some good points especially about age but I would like to remind you that of the 8 you suggested selling, only 1 started yesterday.

[Potomac Red Devil]

I really think the lineup we fielded yesterday was the best we have to offer (other than Brown in for G Neville).

-----------Ruud--------------------

------------Rooney----------------

--Giggs--------------------Ronaldo---

------------Scholes---------------

----------Keane-----------------

-Heinze---Silvestre--Rio----Brown---

------------Howard----------------

I don't think we can rely on all three of Giggs, Scholes and Keane in midfield anymore, at least not in the CL. As DS said, they are just getting too old to compete with the best sides in Europe.

Kleberson has the technical quality to replace Scholes in midfield, and his work rate is sufficient to go forward and track back to defend. But I don't know if SAF sees this, or is willing to only use Klebs in Europe.

It'd be nice to have Ronaldhino up in Giggs slot, and I give credit to SAF for pursuing him, but it didn't work out.

Beyond solving this midfield puzzle, you have the need for more quality depth in the squad. I think Fletcher gives us decent depth in the middle, but I'm not sure (yet) if he can develop into a replacement for either Keane or Scholes. We have plenty of depth up front, though Saha and OGS both have injury problems. Our depth in the back is okay, I guess, with Brown covering the middle and JOS and P Nev adequate out wide.

[Soccerholic]

DS, I'm impressed that you can write such a coherent analysis the morning after a fifth of JD. ;)

[Dark Savante]

DS, I'm impressed that you can write such a coherent analysis the morning after a fifth of JD. ;)
MS word does great things! :p

[musicl]

We missed Fletcher.

[Father Ted]

Here's our problems: Center of defense and midfield.

I still dont have an adequate partner for Rio in defense. Not that Rio is without flaws as he was to blame for yesterday's goal. Sorry, Silvestre and Brown don't cut it. I would even prefer O'Shea to those two. Maybe we should try Heinze there but his tendancy to clatter into opponants must have frightened Fergie from doing such a move.

As for midfield, as much as I love them, Keane and Scholes are done. They are fine for the hussle and bussle of the Premiership but when it comes to the latter stages Champions League they are found wanting time and time again. What are the solution to these problems? Well, I dunno.

As for the goalkeeping situation, I havent totally given up on Howard yet. Let's see how he does the rest of the season.

BTW did anyone see how our group opponants dismantled Werder Bremen over 2 legs? Maybe it would have been a good idea not to field a reserve team in Fenerbache and actually win the group, right?

[Potomac Red Devil]

Here's our problems: Center of defense and midfield.

I still dont have an adequate partner for Rio in defense. Not that Rio is without flaws as he was to blame for yesterday's goal. Sorry, Silvestre and Brown don't cut it. I would even prefer O'Shea to those two. Maybe we should try Heinze there but his tendancy to clatter into opponants must have frightened Fergie from doing such a move.

As for midfield, as much as I love them, Keane and Scholes are done. They are fine for the hussle and bussle of the Premiership but when it comes to the latter stages Champions League they are found wanting time and time again. What are the solution to these problems? Well, I dunno.

As for the goalkeeping situation, I havent totally given up on Howard yet. Let's see how he does the rest of the season.

BTW did anyone see how our group opponants dismantled Werder Bremen over 2 legs? Maybe it would have been a good idea not to field a reserve team in Fenerbache and actually win the group, right?

If we bought a world-class center midfielder, and someone better than Silvestre to partner Rio, we wouldn't need to replace Howard, or we could afford to grab someone like Paul Robinson to platoon duties at GK.

I think we need to replace Giggs, Keane and Scholes, but we can probably only afford to do one at a time.

[Motterman]

We'll keep the Red Flag Flying High

[bigtoga]

BTW did anyone see how our group opponants dismantled Werder Bremen over 2 legs? Maybe it would have been a good idea not to field a reserve team in Fenerbache and actually win the group, right?Yes, but show me the journalist who has the balls to ask Al that question and I'm buying the JD :)

Seriously though, you are right and we had these same discussions then...

[Potomac Red Devil]

We'll keep the Red Flag Flying High

And hopefully we can fly it even higher.

[JohnR]

Dark Savante's analysis looks spot on to me (as a neutral). Although he left out Heinze, who certainly is worth keeping.

The biggest problem is Keane. It's always awkward when a player of that caliber & that personality becomes ordinary. His teammates (and perhaps even SAF) still defer to him, which is to the team's detriment.

Personally, I think United would be best off finding the best possible Keane replacement over the summer, installing him in center midfield, and releasing Roy so that the new player doesn't need to look over his shoulder at the shadow of Keane. But is that politically palatable? You tell me.

[Motterman]

Yes, but show me the journalist who has the balls to ask Al that question and I'm buying the JD :)

Seriously though, you are right and we had these same discussions then...

You have to admit that Fergie risked it and got it wrong. However; his reasons that his first team players needed a rest and could have picked up an injury in a tough environment, while valid, seem a bit pointless now that it's all gone. We do have to think back to our injury situation at the time and realize that his concerns were of merit, but the decision ultimately did backfire.

[Potomac Red Devil]

If I were going to second guess SAF on his choices made in the CL, I would rather focus on the squad selection in the first leg at OT.

But I don't think our problem right now is tactical. SAF is doing about as much as he can with his squad. He just needs to lay out the cash for some top class central midfielders.

[Dark Savante]

Gk's - I feel one of the top 3 is what we should be aiming for. 3years in a row GK errors have cost us in the CL and we must really buy a top quality keeper this summer. It's as important as getting Keano's succesor imo.

Hilderbrand
Given
Frey

----

Robinson
Niemi
Isaakson
Cudicini.

Top quality CB's - The guys in this list except for Chivu would cost between 6-10million they don't make mistakes and most importantly are reliable foils for Rio.

C Metzelder (would be dirt cheap)
Ayala (quite old now but brilliant)
Chivu (pipe dream)
Alex (cheap)
Andrade (calm and composed. Makes few errors or fouls. Would be cheap)

Quality DM/CM's - Age is a huge factor here. If we are talking about a genuine succesor to Roy then we are looking at player under 27. Taking one of these as a succesor and another as cover would be more then enough cover to remove all our poor (bench) midfield players out and have genuine competion for a place in the middle either besides Keane and Scholes or usurping them.

Van Bommel [27] (he's a free agent in the summer)

Gattuso [26](if it's possible)

Essien [22] (may become too expensive if he keeps tearing Europe up)

Marchena [21] (untested in Europe, but a quality player)

Ernst [25] (Cheap, fast, smart and good quality to his game)

De Rossi [22] (Quality, young but expensive)

Wesley Sneijder [21] - Can play across the whole of midfiled. I don;'t think he'd cost much. quality player very good technique and his versatility would help us immediately.

Baraja [30] - Top quality but is getting old now. but his technique and work-rate would transform the midfield. Bit like a Xabi Alonso with bite...

Sissoko [20] - This lad could be the next Vieira. He can play wide has great passing and 1-touch and is only 20 years old. He is way under the radar but he is holding down a position in Valencia's starting xi. He'd not cost much either.

Left Wingers - Imo unless we get Vicente we are talking about cover for Giggs. Rothen is my ideal choice. He's a lethal player who would thrive at our stage like OT

Jerome Rothen!! - gone completely under the radar but is a top class winger and would be dirt cheap - under 10mill

Downing...not convinced personally...the guy has alot more to prove before I'd rate him as highly as a lot of people have...remeber O'Shea's debut season...and subsequent fall-out.

Solano - someone mentioned him the other day. I think he'd be great cover and he'd be cheap too.


CAM - Most of the guys I picked here are old. They know the deal and are composed and intelligent enough to handle tough defences. All of them are brilliant passers of the ball. In Alex and Rosicky you have players that would future-proof the club and the others would bring a substantial amount of experience with them that our youngsters would surely thrive off.

Rosicky! [23](dortmound are in crisis. He would come cheap and is a brilliant player with a lot of heart.

Figo [31] - versatile and unquestionable quality. That extra attacking dimension we seem to lack. His experience would be invaluable.

Baptista [24]- Never get's a mention. Would invigorate us through the heart of the team as he is a tank with an eye for goal and would handle EPL football with ease. Stronger than Vieria and as clinical as Scholes...and he can play a number of roles. He'd cost around 15million.

Juninho P.[29] - Getting old now but he is quality and also covers and number of positions across the midfield. He'd not cost too much and his technical ability is top class.

Alex [22]- all the way out in Turkey. His technique is unbelievable and he'd be the #1 FK taker. A great passer of the ball with superb vision.

Valeron [30]- Sublime on his day. Has a higher level of technical ability then anyone currently at United. He'd be lethal in Europe with the right partner.

I've tried to construct a praticle list of targets who are not only cheap and/or accesible but are versatile and assured in their jobs on the pitch. Mix and matching the whole lot correctly whilst selling our own deadwood would not see us out by more then 10-20million. I believe any take from each one of the sections on this list would fortify us and make us a genuine force again for years to come whilst helping our old guard out and enabling the young guns to blood without much fuss.

For example, getting:

Frey
Ayala
Van Bommel
Gattuso
Rothen and Figo

would cost us about 30million tops. Ayala and Figo are aged and can't command a huge transfer(wages would be a problem) Parma are desperate for cash. Rothen is not hot in the market-place..Van Bommel would cost nothing...leaving us with Gattuso who would cost a fair penny I would imagine.

If we sold our own players we could make serious waves. Obviously there is no way we will go out and buy 6players in the summer..but any 4 or even 3 from that list above would make a massive difference to our fortunes in both the EPL and Europe.

Thoughts?

[Dark Savante]

Here's our problems: Center of defense and midfield.

I still dont have an adequate partner for Rio in defense. Not that Rio is without flaws as he was to blame for yesterday's goal. Sorry, Silvestre and Brown don't cut it. I would even prefer O'Shea to those two. Maybe we should try Heinze there but his tendancy to clatter into opponants must have frightened Fergie from doing such a move.

As for midfield, as much as I love them, Keane and Scholes are done. They are fine for the hussle and bussle of the Premiership but when it comes to the latter stages Champions League they are found wanting time and time again. What are the solution to these problems? Well, I dunno.

As for the goalkeeping situation, I havent totally given up on Howard yet. Let's see how he does the rest of the season.

BTW did anyone see how our group opponants dismantled Werder Bremen over 2 legs? Maybe it would have been a good idea not to field a reserve team in Fenerbache and actually win the group, right?

Have to agree with this. At the top, top level Keano and Scholes can no longer cut it as a partnership. Their collective legs are not what they used to be. Winning the group is something we should always look to do imo.

[Soccerholic]

I think United's first priority should be signing a top quality DM. I love Keane, I really do, and it kills me to say this, but he can't do it against a top quality side like Milan anymore. He does well in the EPL still, and would probably be fine with someone strong next to him, but he can't do it by himself. Essein and Gattuso come to mind. As DS has pointed out, throughout Fergie's tenure, he has always had the best DM in the league. United have tried getting Veron a few years ago - a talented player to be sure - but he didn't fit in. They tried getting a young player for little money in Dj, but he didn't develop into the quality player United need at this position. So, this summer, United need to target the best possible player they can find for this position and do whatever they need to sign him.

Goalkeeper is second for me. Let's see what Howard can do the rest of the season, but I wouldn't give up on him long term. He is as talented of a goalkeeper as you will find and most keepers don't hit their prime until their early 30's. (The rare ones that are great in their 20's, such as Buffon and Casillas, have huge price tags.) Remember, when Tim came to United, he played with great confidence and with nothing to lose. He was voted EPL keeper of the year with these performances. It wasn't until he made some mistakes and felt the wrath of the fans and the press that he got tentative. I think a loan spell would do wonders for his confidence, and of course, his learning to deal better with driven crosses.

Next is center back. Silvestre frustrates the hell out of me. He personally tried to give the game to Milan several times. At times he can be great, but to be a good center back, particularly against top quality competition, you have to be consistent. The only thing consistent about Silvestre is his that he's consistently inconsistent. He needs to be sold. Could Keane work out as CB? I don't know. He looked good at times, not so good at other times when this was tried before. But Keane never had a very good DM playing in front of him, which always makes it tough. I think if United can find a very good DM to play in front of him, Keane could finish his career as a strong CB with good passing skills, ala Matthaus. Still, I would hate to bank on that and would sign a good CB if one can be found for a reasonable price.

Attacking mid. As far as selling players, I would hang on to Klebs for one more year. Some games he has shown flashes of brilliance. Other games he has disappeared completely. Since he hasn't played much in the past few seasons, I don't think his value is terribly high and would keep him unless someone makes an offer United can't refuse. Scholes is a good player, but United need a younger player with more energy for the CL. Full credit to Fergie for targeting Ronaldinho for this position. United again need to target a young attacking player with the abilty to unlock tough defenses.

Winger. United need cover here. I still think Giggs is playing in great form this year and obviously United is set on the other side with Ronaldo. If United could sign a player like Hargraeves who could provide cover here (as well as elsewhere in the midfield) that would be nice. Downing would be great, but his price will be high. Right now, I just don't have much confidence in the backups United have in midfield, particularly at winger.

[sitati_kituyi]

I've heard many Reds talking of the catastrophe of going out to Milan, and I feared that's what this thread was about. Good analysis though, everyone.

I won't speak about the Goalkeeper situation, that one's pretty obvious.

In defence, I honestly think only Gary Neville, Ferdinand and Heinze are true class. The rest don't really cut Champions League standard.

The midfield looks absolutely superb on paper, but in all honesty Scholes, Keane and Giggs are not the future. I really think we have the replacement for Scholes in Kleberson, and we've been linked with SWP and Essien who would be good for the other two's roles. The problem will come if we keep making signings like Miller and Djemba Djemba instead of going for real signings, we may reach a point were we have a midfield consisting of 3 players who are WAY past their best and a bench of subs not worthy to clean their shoes.

Look at last summer's main signings: Heinze, Smith, Rooney - brilliant. If you exclude Rooney that's two fantastic players worthy of being in the first 11 week in week out, and for bargain prices. That's how the evolution of United should occur.

As for last night's game (haven't posted my comment yet, I can just as well do it here) : Nothing to be ashamed of, United fans! Milan were better than I thought: tactically spot-on. And for both goals to be down to errors shows that we were a good match for them. Nothing to worry about, we're no longer (sorry, that should be 'not yet') of the class that we can consider defeat to any team an upset: Going out to Milan, Barca or Chelsea might just be expected.

But there's Rooney, Rio, Ronaldo and Ruud (and Rossi?) to look forward to next season in this competition. We already threw-up (for lack of better metaphor :)), but let's just enjoy the rest of the roller-coaster ride, guys. We should have a Champions League thread still.

[0413117]

Gk's - I feel one of the top 3 is what we should be aiming for. 3years in a row GK errors have cost us in the CL and we must really buy a top quality keeper this summer. It's as important as getting Keano's succesor imo.

Hilderbrand
Given
Frey

----

Robinson
Niemi
Isaakson
Cudicini.

Top quality CB's - The guys in this list except for Chivu would cost between 6-10million they don't make mistakes and most importantly are reliable foils for Rio.

C Metzelder (would be dirt cheap)
Ayala (quite old now but brilliant)
Chivu (pipe dream)
Alex (cheap)
Andrade (calm and composed. Makes few errors or fouls. Would be cheap)

Quality DM/CM's - Age is a huge factor here. If we are talking about a genuine succesor to Roy then we are looking at player under 27. Taking one of these as a succesor and another as cover would be more then enough cover to remove all our poor (bench) midfield players out and have genuine competion for a place in the middle either besides Keane and Scholes or usurping them.

Van Bommel [27] (he's a free agent in the summer)

Gattuso [26](if it's possible)

Essien [22] (may become too expensive if he keeps tearing Europe up)

Marchena [21] (untested in Europe, but a quality player)

Ernst [25] (Cheap, fast, smart and good quality to his game)

De Rossi [22] (Quality, young but expensive)

Wesley Sneijder [21] - Can play across the whole of midfiled. I don;'t think he'd cost much. quality player very good technique and his versatility would help us immediately.

Baraja [30] - Top quality but is getting old now. but his technique and work-rate would transform the midfield. Bit like a Xabi Alonso with bite...

Sissoko [20] - This lad could be the next Vieira. He can play wide has great passing and 1-touch and is only 20 years old. He is way under the radar but he is holding down a position in Valencia's starting xi. He'd not cost much either.

Left Wingers - Imo unless we get Vicente we are talking about cover for Giggs. Rothen is my ideal choice. He's a lethal player who would thrive at our stage like OT

Jerome Rothen!! - gone completely under the radar but is a top class winger and would be dirt cheap - under 10mill

Downing...not convinced personally...the guy has alot more to prove before I'd rate him as highly as a lot of people have...remeber O'Shea's debut season...and subsequent fall-out.

Solano - someone mentioned him the other day. I think he'd be great cover and he'd be cheap too.


CAM - Most of the guys I picked here are old. They know the deal and are composed and intelligent enough to handle tough defences. All of them are brilliant passers of the ball. In Alex and Rosicky you have players that would future-proof the club and the others would bring a substantial amount of experience with them that our youngsters would surely thrive off.

Rosicky! [23](dortmound are in crisis. He would come cheap and is a brilliant player with a lot of heart.

Figo [31] - versatile and unquestionable quality. That extra attacking dimension we seem to lack. His experience would be invaluable.

Baptista [24]- Never get's a mention. Would invigorate us through the heart of the team as he is a tank with an eye for goal and would handle EPL football with ease. Stronger than Vieria and as clinical as Scholes...and he can play a number of roles. He'd cost around 15million.

Juninho P.[29] - Getting old now but he is quality and also covers and number of positions across the midfield. He'd not cost too much and his technical ability is top class.

Alex [22]- all the way out in Turkey. His technique is unbelievable and he'd be the #1 FK taker. A great passer of the ball with superb vision.

Valeron [30]- Sublime on his day. Has a higher level of technical ability then anyone currently at United. He'd be lethal in Europe with the right partner.

I've tried to construct a praticle list of targets who are not only cheap and/or accesible but are versatile and assured in their jobs on the pitch. Mix and matching the whole lot correctly whilst selling our own deadwood would not see us out by more then 10-20million. I believe any take from each one of the sections on this list would fortify us and make us a genuine force again for years to come whilst helping our old guard out and enabling the young guns to blood without much fuss.

For example, getting:

Frey
Ayala
Van Bommel
Gattuso
Rothen and Figo

would cost us about 30million tops. Ayala and Figo are aged and can't command a huge transfer(wages would be a problem) Parma are desperate for cash. Rothen is not hot in the market-place..Van Bommel would cost nothing...leaving us with Gattuso who would cost a fair penny I would imagine.

If we sold our own players we could make serious waves. Obviously there is no way we will go out and buy 6players in the summer..but any 4 or even 3 from that list above would make a massive difference to our fortunes in both the EPL and Europe.

Thoughts?


Yeah, it's blatently obvious that the squad needs strenthening and at least 3 -4 from your list would definetly do the job

[Vermont Red]

I like Hildebrand and Andrade a lot. Didn't realize that Rosicky was that young.

I don't think DM is the current problem. I agree that we need a replacement for Keano but he wasn't the reason that we couldn't break down Milan. Every attempted incisive pass in the final third was blocked by Milan.

If Rosicky or Sneider were available for the right price, I'd love to see them. Don't know enough about Baptista and Alex.