A controversial one

[Spanish_fan]

Hi to all. I am a Spanish fan (easily inferred :D ) who has been following Liverpool since the arrival of Rafa Benitez.

My believe is that Benitez has said many things to the press when he rather thinks the opposite, and it is not a criticism, but rather a clever way of getting rid of the players he doesn't rate to fund the players he does rate and build a team in his own style.

1. "We wanted to keep Owen but when Real Madrid knocks on the door is very difficult to say no"

False. Owen was a player who recomended Benitez as the new coach. He was impressed by how Valencia played against Liverpool in the CL. I have seen Valencia play many times under Benitez and Owen is not his type of striker. He may score a lot of goals, but for Benitez as well as the individual perfomance of a player it is very important what the player brings to the team, his link-up play or his passing. Now he has the player that meets the attributes he wants from a forward: Morientes. This doesn't mean that Morientes is a better player than Owen, but for Benitez's system far less direct than Houllier's and attacking based on ball retention, Frenando Morientes is the player to choose.

So it was easy to say Owen wants out and nothing could be done. The blame to the player who is gone anyway and Benitez is not the coach who arrives at Liverpool to get rid of the best English players and bring Spanish ones.

2. We have the best striking force in the Premiership.

False.

He never believed that for one moment.
Cisse, a player who he would never had signed: pace and shotting. Poor dribling, poor ball control and very selfish. Sorry but that is not Benitez type of player. If you follow the Spanish League you may know a striker for Betis whose name is Oliveira. He is scoring a lot of goals but Benitez got rid of him cause he didn't suit his system, perferring Mista who contributes far more to the team than the Brazilian. Anyone w3ho watched benitez's Valencia would say that the team was much greater than the individuals who made it up. Why, becuase they were team players. I seriously doubt that if Benitez had the chance to sign Ronaldo, who is the most lethal striker in the world would do so because of his selfish play.

Baros, more passion than Cisse, more work but basically another selfish player with very little awareness. Of not use to Benitez.

Pongolle. The one with the best attitude but doesn't score enough goals, not good enough.

I am sure that Cisse and Baros will be sold to get money for other players.

4. Gerrard is among the best midefielders in the world.

Totally false. He doesn't believe that at all. How he wished that he left at the beguining of the season. Loads of cash to bring TEAM players.

Gerrard with all his qualities can not play within a frame of a controlling intelligent build up type of team. Does anyone think here that if Benitez had him at Valencia he would play instead of Albelda or Aimar? I have never heard of Benitez saying that those two are among the best midfielders in the world. Gerrard doesn't control games, loses the ball a lot, and is all over the place. tactically, a very important factor in Benitez's teams he is very naive. No way that Liverpool can be a passing team with Gerrard in the middle of the park launching 40 yard passes every time he gets the ball, no way.
Gerrard will go in the summer and Benitez will not be blamed by the fans as it was gerrard who wanted to leave. All perfect. I you are going to be much better off without him , and if Benitez gets 2 or three Alonso type of players Liverpool are going to be a heck of a team very soon. In fact, in some games, generally when Gerrard was not in a defensive midfield position, Liverpool have displayed very good football. Just think what it is going to be like when Liverpool sign a few more players that fit into Benitez's dynamics.

I may be wrong in what I am saying, but I don't think so, sorry. Gerrard is the best midfielder in the world and has to learn when to run, when not to run. A bit of a contradiction in there, isn't it?

And if he is a top midfielder, why did benitez sign Xabi Alonso? To give him rest in some games? Cause both, gerrard and Alonso, altough with different games are attacking DMs, players that are much better in attack than in defense. Anyone who has seen Benitez;s career at Valencia knows that he ALWAYS played a Hamman type of player in front of the defense, and a creative midfielder next to him. Gerrard or Alonso are not those type of defensive players.

Regards.

[soccer365-old]

Interesting post and a good post if I may say so. I have a hard time believing that Rafa wants to turn Liverpool into the next Valencia. Spanish football is a lot different than English football and Rafa knows that. In his first few months he was shocked at the physical play of the EPL. Ball retention is key in any league but the EPL is fast and physical so you need players who possess those attributes.

I agree with your assement about Rafa wanting "team players." I think there is going to be a massive clearout this summer with players who have had negative things to say during the season gone. However I don't think Cisse will be sold anytime soon. He hasn't had the chance to show what he can do. When the team starts winning everyones attitude will be better.

As for Gerrard, he really has been everywhere on the pitch. The problem is that he was given the license to roam by GH and now he is having a tough time becoming a positional player who sticks around in one spot. The injury to Alonso has forced him to move back and help out Hamann much more than he did in the past.

[The Potter]

Hi to all. I am a Spanish fan (easily inferred :D ) who has been following Liverpool since the arrival of Rafa Benitez.

My believe is that Benitez has said many things to the press when he rather thinks the opposite, and it is not a criticism, but rather a clever way of getting rid of the players he doesn't rate to fund the players he does rate and build a team in his own style.




Odds your a suckpuppet. :)





1. "We wanted to keep Owen but when Real Madrid knocks on the door is very difficult to say no"

False. Owen was a player who recomended Benitez as the new coach. He was impressed by how Valencia played against Liverpool in the CL. I have seen Valencia play many times under Benitez and Owen is not his type of striker. He may score a lot of goals, but for Benitez as well as the individual perfomance of a player it is very important what the player brings to the team, his link-up play or his passing. Now he has the player that meets the attributes he wants from a forward: Morientes. This doesn't mean that Morientes is a better player than Owen, but for Benitez's system far less direct than Houllier's and attacking based on ball retention, Frenando Morientes is the player to choose.

So it was easy to say Owen wants out and nothing could be done. The blame to the player who is gone anyway and Benitez is not the coach who arrives at Liverpool to get rid of the best English players and bring Spanish ones.



Selling Owen for 8m a very cheap price was not something he would of chose to off done as they would probally be in a CL place if they kept him. And bring in more Spanish players I would hope not only Alonso and Moro are up to scrath





2. We have the best striking force in the Premiership.

False.

He never believed that for one moment.
Cisse, a player who he would never had signed: pace and shotting. Poor dribling, poor ball control and very selfish. Sorry but that is not Benitez type of player. If you follow the Spanish League you may know a striker for Betis whose name is Oliveira. He is scoring a lot of goals but Benitez got rid of him cause he didn't suit his system, perferring Mista who contributes far more to the team than the Brazilian. Anyone w3ho watched benitez's Valencia would say that the team was much greater than the individuals who made it up. Why, becuase they were team players. I seriously doubt that if Benitez had the chance to sign Ronaldo, who is the most lethal striker in the world would do so because of his selfish play.

Baros, more passion than Cisse, more work but basically another selfish player with very little awareness. Of not use to Benitez.

Pongolle. The one with the best attitude but doesn't score enough goals, not good enough.

I am sure that Cisse and Baros will be sold to get money for other players.




Well Cisse is injured so who knows but he won't sell him because he is worth around two peenys and a string that the moment and he's better than that. Baros may be sold if the right offer comes in.






4. Gerrard is among the best midefielders in the world.

Totally false. He doesn't believe that at all. How he wished that he left at the beguining of the season. Loads of cash to bring TEAM players.

Gerrard with all his qualities can not play within a frame of a controlling intelligent build up type of team. Does anyone think here that if Benitez had him at Valencia he would play instead of Albelda or Aimar? I have never heard of Benitez saying that those two are among the best midfielders in the world. Gerrard doesn't control games, loses the ball a lot, and is all over the place. tactically, a very important factor in Benitez's teams he is very naive. No way that Liverpool can be a passing team with Gerrard in the middle of the park launching 40 yard passes every time he gets the ball, no way.
Gerrard will go in the summer and Benitez will not be blamed by the fans as it was gerrard who wanted to leave. All perfect. I you are going to be much better off without him , and if Benitez gets 2 or three Alonso type of players Liverpool are going to be a heck of a team very soon. In fact, in some games, generally when Gerrard was not in a defensive midfield position, Liverpool have displayed very good football. Just think what it is going to be like when Liverpool sign a few more players that fit into Benitez's dynamics.

I may be wrong in what I am saying, but I don't think so, sorry. Gerrard is the best midfielder in the world and has to learn when to run, when not to run. A bit of a contradiction in there, isn't it?

And if he is a top midfielder, why did benitez sign Xabi Alonso? To give him rest in some games? Cause both, gerrard and Alonso, altough with different games are attacking DMs, players that are much better in attack than in defense. Anyone who has seen Benitez;s career at Valencia knows that he ALWAYS played a Hamman type of player in front of the defense, and a creative midfielder next to him. Gerrard or Alonso are not those type of defensive players.

Regards.



He may be wan't to sell Gerrard if a HUMONGOUS offer comes in but Gerrard carries that team that's there for all to see. And Gerrard probally is the most complete player in the world(imo). He also signed Alonso after he convinced Gerrard to stay.



Liverpool's problems arn't Gerrard,Cisse and Baros its Nunez,Biscan,Hyppia(to old),Pellingo( :eek: ),Le Tallec,Dudek and Kewell. :)

[Spanish_fan]

Odds your a suckpuppet. :)
Selling Owen for 8m a very cheap price was not something he would of chose to off done as they would probally be in a CL place if they kept him. And bring in more Spanish players I would hope not only Alonso and Moro are up to scrath

Well Cisse is injured so who knows but he won't sell him because he is worth around two peenys and a string that the moment and he's better than that. Baros may be sold if the right offer comes in.

He may be wan't to sell Gerrard if a HUMONGOUS offer comes in but Gerrard carries that team that's there for all to see. And Gerrard probally is the most complete player in the world(imo). He also signed Alonso after he convinced Gerrard to stay.

Liverpool's problems arn't Gerrard,Cisse and Baros its Nunez,Biscan,Hyppia(to old),Pellingo( :eek: ),Le Tallec,Dudek and Kewell. :)

Obviously your conception of football is totally different from mine so we are not going to affect each other's opinions much.

Just only one question, if Gerrard is the player who carries Liverpool FC, why is it that the team wins more games when he is not in it?

BTW I think my conception of football is closer to Benitez than yours and perhaps have a better insight of what players may be of use to him and which ones won't.

And I think you are way off the mark regarding the value of the different players in your team and that of benitez. We will see in the future who is more right and if Liverpool with Benitez's ideas will be a much better team than with Houllier. My forecast is that they will....with no Gerrard in the team.

[The Potter]

Obviously your conception of football is totally different from mine so we are not going to affect each other's opinions much.

Just only one question, if Gerrard is the player who carries Liverpool FC, why is it that the team wins more games when he is not in it?

BTW I think my conception of football is closer to Benitez than yours and perhaps have a better insight of what players may be of use to him and which ones won't.

And I think you are way off the mark regarding the value of the different players in your team and that of benitez. We will see in the future who is more right and if Liverpool with Benitez's ideas will be a much better team than with Houllier. My forecast is that they will....with no Gerrard in the team.

If you can find me tha stats sure :)
If he's fit he's in and he is Liverpool's best player on the pitch more often than anyone else by some distance.

[Spanish_fan]

http://football.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9753,1409835,00.html

Check this out. It is an article talking about Steve and mentions statistics with him and without him in the side this year.

I have read in other forums from LFC supporters that the trend has been repeated in previous years.

[The Potter]

http://football.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9753,1409835,00.html

Check this out. It is an article talking about Steve and mentions statistics with him and without him in the side this year.

I have read in other forums from LFC supporters that the trend has been repeated in previous years.


If your argument is based around a Gaurdian 'opinion' article your in trouble. Piece of advice 'pinch of salt' :)

[The Jitty Slitter]

Liverpool's problems arn't Gerrard,Cisse and Baros its Nunez,Biscan,Hyppia(to old),Pellingo( :eek: ),Le Tallec,Dudek and Kewell. :)

I would say all of those except Gerrard are Liverpools problems. I would add Hamman to the past his best pile also.

The part of the Spaniards post I agree with is that if Gerrard is sold, the ground has been laid PR wise for the blame to attach more to gerrard than the club.

In just about every interview Gerrard has where the topic is raised, he makes it clear that all bets are off end of season, in spite of being a contracted player. No censure or ticking off from the club happens, no matter that Gerrard is essentially canvassing for offers. In fact the chairmen gets up and says gerrard won't be sold for 50 million (the self serving headlline) - unless he wants to go (the fine print).

I think the spaniard is quite right in that a PR stratgey is in place such that if he is sold, the club is portayed in the best light.

[The Potter]

I would say all of those except Gerrard are Liverpools problems. I would add Hamman to the past his best pile also.

The part of the Spaniards post I agree with is that if Gerrard is sold, the ground has been laid PR wise for the blame to attach more to gerrard than the club.

In just about every interview Gerrard has where the topic is raised, he makes it clear that all bets are off end of season, in spite of being a contracted player. No censure or ticking off from the club happens, no matter that Gerrard is essentially canvassing for offers. In fact the chairmen gets up and says gerrard won't be sold for 50 million (the self serving headlline) - unless he wants to go (the fine print).

I think the spaniard is quite right in that a PR stratgey is in place such that if he is sold, the club is portayed in the best light.


I agree with that 35m from Chelsea can improve the sqaud considerbly (anyone person can get injured and if that guy is Gerrard they will struggle) But he can't keep buying sh1t like Nunez , Pellinegro and Josemi.

[The Potter]

http://skysports.planetfootball.com/list.asp?hlid=260872&CPID=8&CLID=14&lid=&title=Benitez+involves+Gerrard&channel=Premiership


The plot thickens

[Matt Clark]

Hi to all. I am a Spanish fan (easily inferred :D )

Welcome to our board.

My believe is that Benitez has said many things to the press when he rather thinks the opposite,

A common trait amongst all football managers, agreed.

1. "We wanted to keep Owen but when Real Madrid knocks on the door is very difficult to say no"

False. Owen was a player who recomended Benitez as the new coach. He was impressed by how Valencia played against Liverpool in the CL. I have seen Valencia play many times under Benitez and Owen is not his type of striker. He may score a lot of goals, but for Benitez as well as the individual perfomance of a player it is very important what the player brings to the team, his link-up play or his passing. Now he has the player that meets the attributes he wants from a forward: Morientes. This doesn't mean that Morientes is a better player than Owen, but for Benitez's system far less direct than Houllier's and attacking based on ball retention, Frenando Morientes is the player to choose.

The second part of this makes sense to an extent, the first part is just speculation. Benitez played Mista, who's principal asset was his directness and his uncanny knack for getting on the end of things. To argue that he would not want Owen in his side is illogical on that basis alone.

2. We have the best striking force in the Premiership.

He's not actually said that. He said something along the lines of "when everyone is fit, our strikers will be amongst the best strikefore in the Premiership." Which is both reasonable in and of itself and of course a perfectly acceptable bit of psychological boosting for his players.

With regard to Cisse, I disagree with you completely. Both in terms of his attributes and Benitez' view of him. In one of his first ever interviews at LFC, for the official club magazine, he revealed that he had tried to sign Cisse for Valencia but been told that a deal had already been struck with Liverpool.

Anyone w3ho watched benitez's Valencia would say that the team was much greater than the individuals who made it up.

This is very true.

I am sure that Cisse and Baros will be sold to get money for other players

I can see Baros going, yes - and for a variety of reasons. But Cisse? None of us have any way of knowing what will happen - especially given that he has only just begun jogging work again and will not be available for selection until pre-season next time out.

4. Gerrard is among the best midefielders in the world.

Totally false. He doesn't believe that at all. How he wished that he left at the beguining of the season.

Again, that's supposition on your part. You are presuming to know what Benitez thinks, which is all very well and good, but hardly laden with credibility. It is, in fact, far more plausible that Benitez does view Gerrard as one of the best midfielders in the world. Given that everyone else does too. Why would Benitez, of all people, be the odd one out?

Gerrard with all his qualities can not play within a frame of a controlling intelligent build up type of team. Does anyone think here that if Benitez had him at Valencia he would play instead of Albelda or Aimar?

Yes. Quite beyond a shadow of a hint of a chance of a doubt.

Gerrard will go in the summer and Benitez will not be blamed by the fans as it was gerrard who wanted to leave.

Unrelated aspect of the debate.

And if he is a top midfielder, why did benitez sign Xabi Alonso?

That decision has nothing to do with Gerrard, above and beyond perhaps the potential for him leaving. Alonso complements Gerrard. And is a massive step above our other central midfielders. It's not a case of Alonse instead of Gerrard (or rather, was not intended as such when we bought him). It's a case of Alonso AND Gerrard instead of, for instance, Hamann and Gerrard. Or Biscan and Gerrard.


Anyone who has seen Benitez;s career at Valencia knows that he ALWAYS played a Hamman type of player in front of the defense, and a creative midfielder next to him.

And yet whenever both Gerrard and Alonso have been available to him, he has played both. More often than not, in place of Hamann. Only against Arsenal, West Brom and Chelsea did he play all three.

[Spanish_fan]

Welcome to our board.


The second part of this makes sense to an extent, the first part is just speculation. Benitez played Mista, who's principal asset was his directness and his uncanny knack for getting on the end of things. To argue that he would not want Owen in his side is illogical on that basis alone.


.

Thaks Matt :)

Directness Mista? I don't think so. Without being tecnically outstanding Mista does a lot of things for the team apart from scoring goals. He can play with his back to the goal, he can go to the wings and keep the ball moving and he can pass the ball reasonably well. Directness? Baros, Owen, Cisse.

Welcome to our board.






He's not actually said that. He said something along the lines of "when everyone is fit, our strikers will be amongst the best strikefore in the Premiership." Which is both reasonable in and of itself and of course a perfectly acceptable bit of psychological boosting for his players.

With regard to Cisse, I disagree with you completely. Both in terms of his attributes and Benitez' view of him. In one of his first ever interviews at LFC, for the official club magazine, he revealed that he had tried to sign Cisse for Valencia but been told that a deal had already been struck with Liverpool.

.




Again, that's supposition on your part. You are presuming to know what Benitez thinks, which is all very well and good, but hardly laden with credibility. It is, in fact, far more plausible that Benitez does view Gerrard as one of the best midfielders in the world. Given that everyone else does too. Why would Benitez, of all people, be the odd one out?



.[/QUOTE]

I am not Benitez or a friend of him. It is all especulation. But I may be right...or wrong. Once thing I can tell you is that not everybody thinks that Gerrard is a great player. I for once don't, and have read, heard opinions from pundits who think the same. The odd one out, not. Football is seen very differently across the world. What it is true is that in England, regardless of how he plays he can do not wrong. (a bit like in Spain with Raul). And I find it contradicting that Benitez speaks about him like the best thing since sliced bread and then he says that he doesn't know how to time his runs. You would expect that tactical awereness (a thing that benitez looks at the players) in one of the best midfielders in the world.




I don't think they complement each other. Both are poor on the defensive end, especially Gerrard, (yes Gerrard) and it is not how Benitez sets about his teams. He likes to mix it, one more defensive, one more ofensive. Had gerrard been a new player at Liverpool he would have used the Alonso Hamman combo. Especulation of course :D

[Red Bird]

Thaks Matt :)
And I find it contradicting that Benitez speaks about him like the best thing since sliced bread and then he says that he doesn't know how to time his runs. You would expect that tactical awereness (a thing that benitez looks at the players) in one of the best midfielders in the world.
:D

Where and when did he say this?

I'm intrigued by your views, by the way, but find the something worrying running through them; I just can't put my finger to it right now.

[Matt Clark]

Directness Mista? I don't think so. Without being tecnically outstanding Mista does a lot of things for the team apart from scoring goals.

Fine, I didn't say otherwise. But he's a direct player in the sense that he is primarily about end product. I would say he is no more or less contributive to the team play as a whole than Owen (whoe capabilities in this regard are grossly underestimated by most casual observers, just by the by).

He's an improvement on Baros, I'll give you that, but then we're all fully aware of his primary weakness and it is most definitely a lack of awareness of the players around him.

I am not Benitez or a friend of him. It is all especulation. But I may be right...or wrong. Once thing I can tell you is that not everybody thinks that Gerrard is a great player.

Oh, I know. But we're all victims of misconception on some level, on some topics. I am quite sure there are Spanish (or Italian, or French, or Alaskan ... ) players whose true quality I don't fully appreciate. It's the nature of things.

I find it contradicting that Benitez speaks about him like the best thing since sliced bread and then he says that he doesn't know how to time his runs.

But he didn't actually say either of those things, in those terms, did he? That's what I mean by misconception. He has said that Gerrard is a vitally important player to us - and that is largely beyond argument. And he has said that he can still improve - which is also difficult to dispute. He's 24, he's still got all sorts to learn.

Never has Benitez said he is the best midfielder in the world and never has he said that he has nothing left to learn.

I don't think they complement each other.

That's lovely. But Benitez disagrees with you.

As to Gerrard's apparent lack of defensive capabilities, see point on misconceptions above. It's OK that you think that, of course. I once said Redondo was a poor passer of the ball. We all get these little twists now and then.

[The Jitty Slitter]

I agree with that 35m from Chelsea can improve the sqaud considerbly (anyone person can get injured and if that guy is Gerrard they will struggle) But he can't keep buying sh1t like Nunez , Pellinegro and Josemi.

Amen to that.

[Suss]

But he can't keep buying sh1t like Nunez , Pellinegro and Josemi.

The 3 players combined cost us 2 million. The players Rafa has spent big money on (Alonso and Morientes) have been great buys. Garcia is his only questionable signing, and he may still turn out to be a bargain.

If Rafa is given money to spend (whether from the sale of Gerrard or otherwise), I'm confident that he will spend it very wisely. Either way, we will be a much better team next season.

[quentinc]

And if he is a top midfielder, why did benitez sign Xabi Alonso? To give him rest in some games? Cause both, gerrard and Alonso, altough with different games are attacking DMs, players that are much better in attack than in defense. Anyone who has seen Benitez;s career at Valencia knows that he ALWAYS played a Hamman type of player in front of the defense, and a creative midfielder next to him. Gerrard or Alonso are not those type of defensive players.
Other than the fact that your entire post was extremely presumptious, I have to disagree with this point. Alonso and Gerrard are completely different in terms of style of play. Gerrard is an attacking midfielder who flourishes when he doesn't have to sit back and make passes around the defense. He likes to make penetrating, driving runs and to be near the goal. Alonso is content with sitting back and slicing the defense. Alonso is the Hamman-type player that you alluded to (although Hamman is really a defensive-minded midfielder). Benitez's system worked when he had Alonso to make the decisions and Gerrard to fill the creative midfielder role. Once we lost Alonso, our form went down the tubes. I've made this point several times, but since your a noob, I'm telling it to you again.

[ULL NEVER WALK ALONE]

Alonso is the Hamman-type player that you alluded to (although Hamman is really a defensive-minded midfielder).

I respectfuly disagree with you mate!i think alonso will turn out to be just like XAVI!i mean,when alonso got the creative role (when gerrard was injured),the team was more consistent!we owe alot to xabi this season,and if we do manage to qualify for the C.L,it would be thanks to him!

[quentinc]

I respectfuly disagree with you mate!i think alonso will turn out to be just like XAVI!i mean,when alonso got the creative role (when gerrard was injured),the team was more consistent!we owe alot to xabi this season,and if we do manage to qualify for the C.L,it would be thanks to him!
I think I was misguided to compare Alonso to Hamman. However, I vehemently disagree with Spanish Fan's point that Alonso and Gerrard are the same type of player. Both are very good at what they do. I think they are our two best players. With Carragher a very close third.

[Suss]

A major flaw in "Spanish fan's" original argument is that Rafa is going to build his team at Liverpool exactly the way he did at Valencia. Obviously La Liga is totally different than the Premiership. Certain players may not have fit into his system at Valencia, but thats not necessarily the same system he is putting together at Liverpool. There is no doubt that Rafa wants to keep Gerrard at Anfield, but if he leaves he will also have no problem making the squad better with the funds raised.