United and diversity

[Achtung]

Read this little snippet from The Guardian this morning. Thought about it for a minute, then decided it was mostly crap:

Arsene Wenger's Arsenal are a patchwork quilt of nations, cultures and races, something entirely new at the summit of English football. It is too early to judge José Mourinho, since he inherited most of his Chelsea players. The case of Alex Ferguson, though, is different. He is a brilliant manager. But his sides have been largely white, with an English and Celtic core. He had the chance to buy Ronaldinho (below), but the club flunked it for reasons that remain unclear. Who was to blame, Ferguson or Peter Kenyon, the then chief executive? The idea that United wanted to pay a lot less for Ronaldinho than they received for David Beckham was ridiculous. The two should not be mentioned in the same breath. Whatever, the chance to have the brilliant black Brazil star as playmaker and icon was lost. Ferguson doesn't seem quite able to make it with Brazilians, nor Africans. Contrast that with Wenger, who is relaxed with players from different races and cultures. For this, he deserves high praise. And I am a Man Utd supporter.

Sorry, but I just am not buying that we somehow have some sort of issues with non-white players (and I'm not white myself). I mean, looking at the importance of players like Rio, Andy Cole (who I believe was an English transfer record), Dwight Yorke, and Paul Ince, as well as our splurge for Saha, and I don't see that SAF is somehow reluctant to go for players of African descent. Even more squad-type players like Silvestre and Fortune, as well as Howard, have mostly worked out. As for Latin players, I agree we may have flubbed a few there, but hopefully the success of Heinze and Ronaldo can put that aside. We've been very lucky as a squad that our core from the mid 90s still has what it takes to play at such a high level, and yes they were all white (though Brown can be one to change that trend). But more recently, has it really mattered when it comes to our transfer dealings and rumors? The idea that we wouldn't spend on Ronaldinho because of some kind of racial issue is, at best, ludicrous. It's been all but established that a combination of unreasonable requests from the player as well as Kenyon's shenanigans is what hurt us there. We haven't taken many shots at relatively unknown African players like Wenger simply because we haven't had to as much. With our money, we're able to spend on Europeans who have more information available on them. Any board of any team has to be more comfortable spending on a player form Europe who they can watch every week, as opposed to one from a more far flung location who can be tough to scout.

Didn't want to play a race card or start something too controversial here. But it just irks me that the current composition of the team is somehow used to imply that SAF or the board don't get along well with players of different origins.

[Dark Savante]

Shocking to see that in the guardian of all places. It is absurd on way too many levels.

Why was Djemba not mentioned for example?

Anywho. let's see how Wenger copes with the potential racial tensions at Arsenal now that Almunia has decided to defend Aragones the day after Henry has demanded FIFA punish him more severely...

Quite simply every manager's main pool of players will come from the market he is most familiar with....why for example does the article not mention the lack of English/British player's brought in by Wenger??

Meh.

[Acronym]

Fcuking knobs, i'll be complaining about that which cvnt wrote it???

[Acronym]

I personally don't care if he's purple, if he's good enough to wear the shirt then its cool, what's this WUM on about???

[billyho96]

Shocking to see that in the guardian of all places. It is absurd on way too many levels.

Why was Djemba not mentioned for example?

Anywho. let's see how Wenger copes with the potential racial tensions at Arsenal now that Almunia has decided to defend Aragones the day after Henry has demanded FIFA punish him more severely...

Quite simply every manager's main pool of players will come from the market he is most familiar with....why for example does the article not mention the lack of English/British player's brought in by Wenger??

Meh.

or as we'll call him next year . . . former Arsenal keeper Almunia

[Mac_Howard]

When I was in the UK (pre-1996) I regularly read the Guardian but I can confirm that it's sports coverage was never impressive. It is a left-wing, intellectual newspaper and towards soccer (I use that to distinguish it from rugby football) there is a patronising, facetious attitude and political correctness even creeps in at times. It always had the attitude that "continental soccer" was a superior product to the British game and while British players were ignorent thugs European players were intellectual giants. Pure anti-anglo/American garbage that infests the left's mentality!

The above is a good example. If there is parochialism then surely Wenger with his French connection is the guiltiest party. South American and African players have generally failed miserably in British football regardless of who they play for. There are very few successes. Utd's experiences with Veron, Forlan, DjDj and Kleberson hardly recommends these players to Alex.

Also, Utd have, to a much greater extent than either Arsenal or Chelsea, relied on their very successful youth program which inevitably means more home-grown (British) players. They also have had the financial ability to meet the transfer fee demands for British players which are often much higher than for other nation's players. The manager is British and who will, therefore, quite obviously have a far better understanding of the qualities of other club players resulting in less risky transfers and expensive mistakes - just like Wenger and the French :rolleyes:

His comments on Beckham and Ronaldinho are pure 20/20 hindsight - when the deals were done Ronaldinho was not seen as being as valuable as Beckham. It is only the subsequent performance of the two players that causes the comparison to look weak. But even now, because of the commercial value of Beckham, the valuation may not be as different as he assumes.

The Guardian needs to be taken with more than a pinch of salt ;)

[Ballzack]

Consider the source; The Guardian

[jayro75]

Now wait a second what color is Rio if memory serves me right he is of African desent and he's been tapped to be our next captain!! The writer of this story is a ********ing filthy cvnt!!!

[billyireland]

Not going to waste much effort with this disgraceful attack on us, except to say that if my memory serves me correctly, we are the only EPL team to have had players from all the continents since the turn of the millenium

Europe:
From Ireland - Roy Keane, John O'Shea, Irwin
From Northern Ireland - Roy Carroll
From Spain - Pique
From Portugal - C. Ronaldo, Ricardo
From France - Silvestre, Blanc, Saha, Barthez
From Holland - Stam, van Nistlerooy
From Sweden - Blumqvist
From Denmark - Schmeichel
From Norway - Solskjaer, Johnsen, Berg
From Scotland - Fletcher
From Wales - Giggs
From Italy - Rossi (he declared, so...)
From England - a lot, of which Rio & Brown are black

Africa - Djemba-Djemba, Fortune

Australia - Bosnich

South America - Forlan, Veron, Kleberson, Heinze (also part German)

North American - Howard, Spector, Cooper

Asia - Dong, Hussaine

*Players in bold are black, or partly black
**Players in italics are of latin descent
***Players underlined are Asian

Note that players from all of these continents have played for our first team, except possibly the Asians (does anybody know if Hussaine got a run out in any Carling Cup or meaningless CL matches?)

I'm thinking of e-mailing this list into the Guardian to see what they have to say, because to be frank, I am utterly appalled by this column.

[loublaze]

[Q
The above is a good example. If there is parochialism then surely Wenger with his French connection is the guiltiest party. South American and African players have generally failed miserably in British football regardless of who they play for. There are very few successes. Utd's experiences with Veron, Forlan, DjDj and Kleberson hardly recommends these players to Alex.


Most African players have miserably failed? Or maybe the United setup can't accomodate outside talent. Sorry but if a player fails to perform the coaching staff should take part of the blame.

[sitati_kituyi]

Living in Africa, this isn't the first time I've come across such an argument. How the hell can someone even consider writing such ****************e. Wenger's Francophone-bias is much more questionable. I would be thoroughly dissapointed to see some African/Asian shunted into the club if his race was even rumoured to be a factor in the club's interest.

How an editor let such rubbish slip through onto his pages is questionable.

[Scouse]

we are the only EPL team to have had players from all the continents since the turn of the milleniumumm, what about Everton?
Europe Stubbs etc etc
North America McBride, Radzinski, Max-Moore
South America Rodrigo
Africa Yobo, Nyarko
Asia Li Tie
Australasia Cahill

i'm sure there's a few clubs out there that could say that same.

[billyireland]

umm, what about Everton?
Europe Stubbs etc etc
North America McBride, Radzinski, Max-Moore
South America Rodrigo
Africa Yobo, Nyarko
Asia Li Tie
Australasia Cahill

i'm sure there's a few clubs out there that could say that same.
Believe it or not, Everton did enter my head almost immediately, only I couldn't think of a South American. Good call there, Scouse. Still livid about that column, though... more so than the draw today, even.

[Scouse]

to be frank, I am utterly appalled by this column.i don't know why, it's spot-on.

i don't think for a second that Ferguson is racist but his history in the transfer market has definitely been to look for British (or at least British-based players) to form his team. the fact that they may or may not be black is irrelevant.

the perception exists that British players have a more down-to-earth approach to their football than their european/south american counterparts and knowing the kind of character Ferguson is, that'll naturally translate to a preference for 'home' talent.

within the last few years, Man Utd have bought Rio, Smith and Rooney and have paid handsomely for each, their transfer fees total something in the region of £50m combined. how much have Arsenal spent on British players in the same time? or Chelsea?

as a sidenote if you were to think of some of Ferguson's biggest transfer flops, you'd probably come up with some of the following: Veron, Forlan, Taibi, Djemba-Djemba, Bellion, Poborsky...draw your own conclusions from that.

[nicephoras]

Its a stupid column, because if it had been written from the "Ferguson is trying to keep a domestic core" view it would be praised. Even though the facts are exactly the same. Who wouldn't rather have more English players on their side if they were better? They're, in theory, more loyal to their club, less likely to leave for the supposedly greener pastures of Italy or Spain, less likely to have trouble settling and will be more appealing to the home fans. Who wouldn't rather English players when you think of it that way? It is the ENGLISH Premiership, after all. The English players are sure things because we've seen them perform in this league already, know the style of the game, etc. When you invest, do you purchase exotic Brazilian financial instruments or stocks on the NYSE? Is it because you're racist, or because you think investing in a completel unproven and unknown Brazilian market is risky? I don't know, maybe its because you're racist, but I'd just rather ensure a return on my money.

P.S. How much have we spent on English players? Not counting Gerrard (;)), we bought Bridge, Cole, Johnson and Parker in the last two years or so. Before that, we bought Lampard. Hardly insubstantial.

[The Devil is in Me]

Good post, Nicephoras. Couldn't agree more. I give credit to SAF for sticking to young English born players, when the easy thing would be to buy seasoned imports.

To be honest, what Arsenal does and to SOME extent Chelsea as well, makes me sick. It almost seems like Wenger would rather look for foreign talent before he considers homegrown youth. Seems like the same thing with Jose. Maybe it's just that foreign coaches have loyalties with foreign players. Either way I don't see how English soccer benefits from this in terms of homegrown player development.

[MyHouse!]

As a Black American, I can say that part of my reasons for starting supporting Manchester United back in 94 was seeing Paul Ince patrolling the midfield and taking out unsuspecting midfielders.

Whoever wrote that article obviously has a eye problem with the likes of the afore mentioned Yorke, Saha, Rio, Ince, Cole, (The last 3 Black AND English which the writer apparently forgets), Silvestre, Howard, DJ-DJ, Kleberson, Richardson, Bellion. Lots of Black players who have had starring, supporting and future roles with the club.

Besides I don't recall seeing this huge influx of Black players at Arsenal until after the Treble with two Black forwards leading the charge for most of the season.

SAF has always bought players based on his belief that they will fit into his system no matter WHERE they're from and for someone to suggest MUFC is excluding Black players because he didn't sign Ronaldo is just stupid.

[prk166]

Man, if the writer's going to play the black card, Ronaldihno isn't very black.

[prk166]

As a Black American, I can say that part of my reasons for starting supporting Manchester United back in 94 was seeing Paul Ince patrolling the midfield and taking out unsuspecting midfielders.

Whoever wrote that article obviously has a eye problem with the likes of the afore mentioned Yorke, Saha, Rio, Ince, Cole, (The last 3 Black AND English which the writer apparently forgets), Silvestre, Howard, DJ-DJ, Kleberson, Richardson, Bellion. Lots of Black players who have had starring, supporting and future roles with the club.

Besides I don't recall seeing this huge influx of Black players at Arsenal until after the Treble with two Black forwards leading the charge for most of the season.

SAF has always bought players based on his belief that they will fit into his system no matter WHERE they're from and for someone to suggest MUFC is excluding Black players because he didn't sign Ronaldo is just stupid.

Interesting the different things that draw us into the game and to a certain club. I never considered that race would be one of them. Not that I didn't think it could be. The thought hadn't occured to me. In Ince's case it sounds like it's not simply that he's black but that he was damn good at what he did to boot. I'm suprised the writer didn't dredge that up and claim SAF ran him off to Inter because of his color, too.

Normally I just let things like this slide. A columnists job in many ways is to stir things up and get people to read their column. But this is really horrible. In reading the quote Achtung had posted, the write is clearly implying that SAF is a racist. That's ********ing ****************! Sorry, there are times when vulgar language is needed to convey a point. I guess I shouldn't be suprised since it was printed in the Guardian. But fans can't let this stuff get by. We need to let the newspaper and the rest of the press know that they shouldn't call people racist just to try to sell some newspapers.
:mad:

[sitati_kituyi]

My old man was a Forest fan back in the day when they were the first team in England to have black players on their side, because they were the first team in England to have black players on their side.

I converted him to Unitedism by the time I was 10 :).