Is Martin Ferguson our achilles heel?

[Sofabloke]

SAF's brother is our chief scout, this seems to be an area we have been sorely lacking recently;

Don't Count:
- Ronaldo (players told SAF to buy him)
- Rio / Alan Smith / Wayne Rooney / Saha (established Prem players)
- youngsters (I think Brian Choccie McClair currently looks after this side of the biz)

The successes;
- Ruud
- Heinze

The tale of woe:
- Forlan
- how many keepers?
- DjDj
- Kleberson
- Veron
- Blanc

On the recent evidence we should have sacked Martin and got a new Chief Scout - but then if the manager is your brother is this ever likely to happen?

[sitati_kituyi]

Good post.

I've always felt Arsenal are better than us at getting young players who are really on the verge of stardom at fair prices and converting them to superstars. Who are Arsenal's stars now? Campbell, Cole, Vieira, Pires, Ljungberg, Henry would be my top pick. Outside of Campbell and Cole (high profile player before the transfer and academy product respectively), the others are down to exceptional scouting. Cesc and Reyes also seem good signings.

For United, the big stars would be Rio, Heinze, Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Ronaldo, Ruud, Rooney. As posted above, only Ruud and Heinze seem to be down to great scouting, and as I had heard of and watched both of them before United were ever linked with them, they were probably already known to the manager (or maybe I'd just make a good scout :) ).

[Motterman]

SAF's brother is our chief scout, this seems to be an area we have been sorely lacking recently;

Don't Count:
- Ronaldo (players told SAF to buy him)
- Rio / Alan Smith / Wayne Rooney / Saha (established Prem players)
- youngsters (I think Brian Choccie McClair currently looks after this side of the biz)

The successes;
- Ruud
- Heinze

The tale of woe:
- Forlan
- how many keepers?
- DjDj
- Kleberson
- Veron
- Blanc

On the recent evidence we should have sacked Martin and got a new Chief Scout - but then if the manager is your brother is this ever likely to happen?

We were tracking Ronaldo before that friendly as we had an existing "relationship" with Sporting Lisbon already.

Also, Veron was an established player who just didn't fit in to the English game. Forlan wasn't scouted much either, we nicked him from Boro at the last minute, and he's certainly showed his quality in Spain this season. Blanc was too old by the time he finally came to us, but he was still a smart player and a World Cup winner. Klebs was always going to struggle with the Premiership with his slight frame. Djemba didn't develop like most people thought he could.

As for keepers:

Howard may still work out for us...
Barthez was a great keeper, but prone to some really bizzare behaviour and such...
Carroll can be real quality, but makes mistakes at the wrong moment, kind of what Howard is struggling with at the moment...

The three things these guys have in common is that, at times, they can look like one of the world's best keepers for 3-4 games, and then make a huge mistake that ruins a season.

It's very hard to judge who is going to be consistent and who is prone to the odd screw up...

Now, I'm not saying that our scouting couldn't and shouldn't be better, but it's not as bad as you've made it out to be, IMO.

Plus, comparing our transfer activity to almost anybody else, isn't realistic. For one, we had Peter Kenyon for most of the dodgier deals. Second, we have to pay more because we are the richest club and other clubs use that in order to make us pay a premium, even for players who should cost 3 mil, would cost us 8. Plus, as beautiful as Manchester can be, the weather sucks and the nightlife doesn't compare to London, or more importantly Milan, Barcelona or Madrid. We also get hurt by being the richest club when it comes to selling players - nobody wants to give us any money for quality players like Nicky Butt, etc.

[bigtoga]

You listed Forlan - isn't he proving that he's a top quality striker in Spain currently? He just didn't get the chances, possibly, that he needed as he was behind Ruuuuuuuuuuud.

Veron - bad buy, I agree. There's one "strike" against Al's scouting system.

Howard - he still has yet to be cast aside so you can't give up on him

Carroll - Al tried to convert a solid backup into a first team keeper out of necessity and it didn't work out. Al's hands were tied at the beginning of the season - he wasn't allowed to spend any more $$$ after buying Rooney. I don't think there was anything else Al could do.

Kleberson - strike two

DjDj - strike three....

Blanc - I thought Blanc did a great job for what he was brought in to do. Why is he on this list?

And, as for Arsenal's recruiting, they've absolutely signed several kids with lots of upside. Cesc, Reyes, Clichy, Fabregas - all seem very talented younger players. But, as we all know, you can't win anything with kids!

[johno]

I don't know how anyone can say Kleberson has not worked out... he has not played!!! Clearly SAF has a problem with him because the only time he got anything that resembled a run of games when Scholes was injured just after Klebs came, he looked great... I think he played 3 out of 4 games and was sparkling... he's a good player, but perhaps he wont fit into our system... I figured he'd be perfect in our 4-3-3 to complement Scholes and Keane especially against a side like Milan, but we just have not given the man a chance... and its not due to lack of quality... Fletcher was rubbish for quite awhile but he was given his chance... but neither Kleberson nor DjDj are Scottish, so they dont have 30 games of mediocrity to play with, 10 ok games and 2 good ones... they have to show their ability to fit into the first team right away... a bit unfair I think.

[Rei de Boston]

I'm backing our President in the KFC. I don't see how you can say that scouting and signing Kleberson is a strike. The guy is talented. He has shown he can play. He has not gotten a real chance. Now sure part of that is due to the injuries. I agree with johno here as well that in Europe I think Klebs could be awesome for us.

I also think that scouting has to be one of the toughest jobs. You can't always hit a homerun. Signing Ruud and Heinze are homeruns. Guys like Kleberson, Forlan, and Veron are class but might not have been best for our system (jury still out on Klebs obviously.) That shows that against the stinkers it is still a pretty good average.

[Motterman]

Fletcher was rubbish for quite awhile but he was given his chance... but neither Kleberson nor DjDj are Scottish,

I think that's insulting.

[billyireland]

I don't know how anyone can say Kleberson has not worked out... he has not played!!! Clearly SAF has a problem with him because the only time he got anything that resembled a run of games when Scholes was injured just after Klebs came, he looked great... I think he played 3 out of 4 games and was sparkling... he's a good player, but perhaps he wont fit into our system...Instead of putting the blame for this on Ferguson, how about looking the Kleberson, himself? There is no doubt in my mind thyat while giving Fletcher, O'Shea, Phil Neville, Fortune and even Alan Smith & Wayne Rooney tryouts & time in the centre of midfield, Ferguson was not deliberately overlooking Klebs for personal reasons. Everytime it seems perfect for him to start, he props up 'injured', especially when it is anywhere near a Brazil match (for which he makes a miraculous recovery). when he does get the rare game for us, he displays the skills and potential alright, but he never looks interested or tries to get stuck in. How can you say this is Ferguson's fault? He is quickly developing into our Winston Bogarde, only we have the finances that Chelsea didn't pre-Ambramovitch to tell him ******** off; we might even get a few million in doing so.

I figured he'd be perfect in our 4-3-3 to complement Scholes and Keane especially against a side like Milan, but we just have not given the man a chance... and its not due to lack of quality... I reckon it was not onyl due to the reasons listed above, but lack of workrate/commitment shown to the club. Face it, he has far from done himself any favours and really doesn't seem to mind never playing (ever heard him complaining to the media abotu it?).

Fletcher was rubbish for quite awhile but he was given his chance... but neither Kleberson nor DjDj are Scottish, so they dont have 30 games of mediocrity to play with, 10 ok games and 2 good ones... they have to show their ability to fit into the first team right away... a bit unfair I think.As Ian said, this is insulting... Fletcher had been playing great for several months - you don't have a spell of 15 wins and 2 draws in the league with one of your centre-mids being mediocre-to-ok, do you? We have lost a total of TWO games since November, I think. Interestingly, these have both been at home so we must have been missing something important for both of them... Keane? Nope. Scholes? Nope. Rio? Nope... Who? Fletcher. Face it, DjDj was given a good number of games, and not only failed to proved to not be of Keane's standards, but proved to be completely unsuited to the EPL, lacking speed and any ability to pass the ball - he was the Forlan of our midfield. Kleberson, meanwhile, just doesn't seem to care. Then you look at Fletcher, who has been perhaps our hardest-working and most improved player this year. Where you are coming from with that statement I don't know...

[Achtung]

As Ian said, this is insulting... Fletcher had been playing great for several months - you don't have a spell of 15 wins and 2 draws in the league with one of your centre-mids being mediocre-to-ok, do you? We have lost a total of TWO games since November, I think. Interestingly, these have both been at home so we must have been missing something important for both of them... Keane? Nope. Scholes? Nope. Rio? Nope... Who? Fletcher. Face it, DjDj was given a good number of games, and not only failed to proved to not be of Keane's standards, but proved to be completely unsuited to the EPL, lacking speed and any ability to pass the ball - he was the Forlan of our midfield. Kleberson, meanwhile, just doesn't seem to care. Then you look at Fletcher, who has been perhaps our hardest-working and most improved player this year. Where you are coming from with that statement I don't know...

I think Johno is referring more to Fletcher's play last season, which was hardly up to United standards until late in the year. Much of this was probably attributed to playing on the right side instead of in the middle, where he has always looked more effective. Still, for a player who was often touted as "the next Beckham", he wasn't exactly tearing things up last season. Whereas Kleberson, who I admit is absent for an irritating number of games, looked good when given a run in the team. Midway through last season, it would have been tough to pick Fletcher over Kleberson as a future regular first-teamer. This season, Fletcher has gotten in a fine run and while he hasn't been spectacular, he's been solid overall. He won't be in the running for any PFA awards this year, but he's done well for himself at a relatively young age (he just turned 21).

I don't really know all the reasons for Klebs' absences, and I don't there there are many who do outside the United circle. We just have to trust in SAF that there is a very good reason the guy hasn't been getting as many chances, be it injury-related or otherwise.

[haven]

Fletcher really is one of those players that various people who all seem to have some knowledge of soccer who can watch...and completely disagree.

BillyIreland and Motterman have watched the guy...and think he's been a true success this year. I respect both of them. Yet I watch him, and think he sucks save for the occasional flash of creativity and long passing.

Regardless, we do seem to have struck out on an inordinate # of central midfielders recently. I half-wonder if we're targeting the wrong people, since most of the mistakes do seemed confined to that position.

I seldom blame anybody for purchasing mistakes at GK, since they tend to be a law unto themselves.

[Motterman]

Fletcher really is one of those players that various people who all seem to have some knowledge of soccer who can watch...and completely disagree.

BillyIreland and Motterman have watched the guy...and think he's been a true success this year. I respect both of them. Yet I watch him, and think he sucks save for the occasional flash of creativity and long passing.

Actually, I think Fletch still has a long way to go in order to justify the time that Ferguson has given his so far in his fledgling career. Those occasional flashes of creativity and long passing have started to show up more often this year for him... I say in 2-3 years he could reach the heights that obviously Sir Alex thinks he's capable of attaining....

[Potomac Red Devil]

I won't repeat a lot of what's said, other than I think the failing with Klebs was last year, when SAF refused to play him (when healthy) late in the year, choosing to play Fletcher instead.

I can't really say much about this year.

[johno]

Instead of putting the blame for this on Ferguson, how about looking the Kleberson, himself? There is no doubt in my mind thyat while giving Fletcher, O'Shea, Phil Neville, Fortune and even Alan Smith & Wayne Rooney tryouts & time in the centre of midfield, Ferguson was not deliberately overlooking Klebs for personal reasons. Everytime it seems perfect for him to start, he props up 'injured', especially when it is anywhere near a Brazil match (for which he makes a miraculous recovery). when he does get the rare game for us, he displays the skills and potential alright, but he never looks interested or tries to get stuck in. How can you say this is Ferguson's fault? He is quickly developing into our Winston Bogarde, only we have the finances that Chelsea didn't pre-Ambramovitch to tell him ******** off; we might even get a few million in doing so.

Interesting... Kleberson fit for Brazil matches but not fit for ours? You really think that its his choice that he is not playing? Difference between ManU now and Chelsea then? We are a great, great, great side... with a history of success... most players on the planet would love to play for us... I can't say that Klebs 100% is not at fault for missing because I have not been there, however I can say most players who sit on the bench, or dont get into the first team generally want to play, and I have to assume that Klebs is one of them... there are not that many Bogardes out there...

I reckon it was not onyl due to the reasons listed above, but lack of workrate/commitment shown to the club. Face it, he has far from done himself any favours and really doesn't seem to mind never playing (ever heard him complaining to the media abotu it?).

BULLSH!T... Klebs has a workrate higher than any of our midfielders... Period... One game in the middle of his 3 out of 4 games he ran 15k, 3k more than Keane and a season high for United... not only that... in his rare appearnaces most notice that he tires early... its cause he's running alot and also because he lacks match fitness... kinda hard to get it without playing you know? Kleberson does not speak very good english... can u imagine him complaining to the media? he's also never been seen as a great player unlike some others on our team who might have had the confidence to play.

As Ian said, this is insulting... Fletcher had been playing great for several months - you don't have a spell of 15 wins and 2 draws in the league with one of your centre-mids being mediocre-to-ok, do you? We have lost a total of TWO games since November, I think. Interestingly, these have both been at home so we must have been missing something important for both of them... Keane? Nope. Scholes? Nope. Rio? Nope... Who? Fletcher. Face it, DjDj was given a good number of games, and not only failed to proved to not be of Keane's standards, but proved to be completely unsuited to the EPL, lacking speed and any ability to pass the ball - he was the Forlan of our midfield. Kleberson, meanwhile, just doesn't seem to care. Then you look at Fletcher, who has been perhaps our hardest-working and most improved player this year. Where you are coming from with that statement I don't know...

I don't care what anyone says... Fletcher often shows that he CAN be a good midfielder, but that's in spurts during matches... for the most of his games he spends a good deal of time on the ball to make a simple, simple pass... once in a while he will play a good through ball and he will never, ever, ever dribble another player or even avoid a tackle... he is just a vanila player... plain... not great, never will be great... but could be very good in a Nicky Butt kind of way... (not positionally, but efficient at what could be considered necessary for his position but not regarded as world class).

I've said my part and I won't bore you guys too much so here it is...

Kleberson produces results when he plays... several assists a high number per start but Fletcher gives us intangibles supposedly... Maybe Fletcher is a better player than Kleberson but with his limited matches we could have what Fergie wanted from Veron right in our hands without knowing it... he's a player who could play in Arsenal's midfield for any of you who watch their games you know what i mean... good passing, good technique... the kind of player who would make holding possesion alot easier... oh well... rant over...

even if we sometimes disagree I don't dislike you for it guys... anyone.. well, except zani.

[Mac_Howard]

I think the problem with Kleberson has to be something that we, as fans, just don't see. Perhaps his training performance, his attitude, his interaction with others in the squad - something that shows up during the week rather than in the matches themselves. We can only assume that Alex has good reason for not playing him and I don't buy it that he doesn't play a World Cup winner simply because he's not Scottish.

Fletcher is another enigma but one which I think is easier to solve because it does show up on the field of play. He gets involved a great deal in the game - that has to be a plus - but he doesn't do a lot with his involvement. I think basically it's because he's not a particularly skillful player. His passing is ordinary, his ball control ordinary, his tackling not much better than Scoles', he has neither pace nor quickness and I've seen no creative vision. We get effort from him, not skill. Effort is good but when it's not allied to skill them you have a journeyman play and I suspect Fletcher will always stay that. "Another Butt" is a good description.

[Dark Savante]

I think the problem with Kleberson has to be something that we, as fans, just don't see. Perhaps his training performance, his attitude, his interaction with others in the squad - something that shows up during the week rather than in the matches themselves. We can only assume that Alex has good reason for not playing him and I don't buy it that he doesn't play a World Cup winner simply because he's not Scottish..

I'vr said this for a long time. Of all the players I've ever known at the club Kleberson is the biggest mystery of them all. Fergie never talks about him and we know as much about him now 2yrs later as we did when he first joined. No-one even knows if he is unhappy in Manchester or whatever. It's the strangest situation I have seen with a player at the club, you are usually out or in. Kleberson has been in his own Matrix from the get go. He clearly has a higher technical ability then most of the squad and I can't see why he never gets a chance other than either

a) his application and heart, or
b) what he does in training etc

It has come to the point where we need to clean house and Klebs will be gone in the Summer. Keane is getting older and we can't afford many more merru-go-rounds with players. My personal belief was always that Klebs was bought mainly to keep Ronaldinho (and maybe create a chemistry with him on the pitch)happy in Manchester...and as he didn't come...we were kind of stuck..just a theory I have.



Fletcher is another enigma but one which I think is easier to solve because it does show up on the field of play. He gets involved a great deal in the game - that has to be a plus - but he doesn't do a lot with his involvement. I think basically it's because he's not a particularly skillful player. His passing is ordinary, his ball control ordinary, his tackling not much better than Scoles', he has neither pace nor quickness and I've seen no creative vision. We get effort from him, not skill. Effort is good but when it's not allied to skill them you have a journeyman play and I suspect Fletcher will always stay that. "Another Butt" is a good description.
I think you're way off with Fletcher. His main failing with his passing is he often gets caught in possession because his passes are slowwww on release. If he has enough time he is perfectly capable of some very good play. He needs to improve that area of his game. That could well be the transition from the youth teams to the 1st team showing though. We wont know for a few years yet whether he will speed-up his plays.

Fletcher is nothing like Butt as you could give Butt a day to make an incisive play and he'd still put the ball a mile into the south stand..that's not the case with Fletcher. Also Butt is much, much more incisive and precise in the tackle and is totally crap at harrassing a man. Vice Versa for Fletcher. I think right now most people would call Fletch, Phil McNeville :p

[Motterman]

Ferguson on Kleberson:

"Kleberson came back to training with us on Tuesday and we shall be monitoring his fitness. There has been no deal struck with Corinthians. He is our player and we are going to see how he does now he's over this latest setback. He suffered the injury against Arsenal in the Carling Cup and he tried to make a comeback but it was decided he needed surgery and we thought it was best if he went back to Brazil for it and do the remedial work there. We have kept in touch with the surgeon and physio. We have been getting faxes from them of his progress and we even received pictures of the operation! He’s been over there since mid-January and now he’s back and he gives me another option. He’s coming back as a fresh player and, with Darren Fletcher out at the moment, that is great for me. The boy has been very unlucky in his career over here. He’d never had a long-term injury previously but then he gets over here and he dislocates his shoulder in his second match for us. Then he had a knee problem and then this ankle trouble. Some people just don’t seem to possess the luck you need when you start a new career, especially when you are in a new country. Kleberson hasn’t had that good fortune. In terms of quality he is a fantastic footballer and hopefully things might change for him now with us.”

[bigtoga]

Ok KFC members - if Kleberson is so good and has not been a "strike" against Ferguson's recruiting, why has Al been trying to jettison him for months? I respect the members of the KFC and, on the occasion that he bombs a long shot towards goal, I start thinking about how he really might be good after all. But there's only been two players that I've seen Al get rid of while they were near peak form: Posh and Yip-Jaap. If Al felt Klebs could cut it at OT, the kid would get his chances... My thoughts are that SAF doesn't believe that (a) Kleb can get healthy and stay healthy, and (b) doesn't believe that he can play fast enough...

[johno]

again... BULL and SH!T...
a) you cannot assume a player will have injury problems... you can only play them when they are healthy... SAF did not do this...

b) he played fine when given the chance to play, but how often is that? like has been said, it takes time to get used to the league, but how in heavens name is he going to do that without playing? we've seen flashes of BRILLIANCE from the man... and he's a better passer than everyone on the squad save Scholes... but he can't get into the team...

I think there have to be some personal issues...

oh... and as to why Al has been trying to get rid of him? we (the kfc) would all like to know... there's no good reason for it as far as I can see...

[sitati_kituyi]

Kleberson IMO has played better than Veron did when he's been on the pitch. As was the case with Veron, I honestly think that if he finally gets the run in the team he'll be class. He doesn't need to be a first team player immediately! If he can just get himself into the position Quinton has forced himself into, it will be good output for a tough season for him.

But I have a bad feeling that, just like Veron, this summer when everyone thinks "All right, new season, Klebs will show his class", he'll leave the club. I don't really blame Fergie, because excuses aside, Kleberson HASN'T produced what he could. You sometimes have to accept that injuries are just part of a player's career, and can often determine whether he's good enough to be in the team.

I hope we keep Klebs just one last season, then if he fails to produce he can leave. Just think of it, our 2nd string midfield next season could be

Fletcher---Essien----Kleberson----Fortune

That is a VERY good midfield when each player is on top form.

[Potomac Red Devil]

If Al felt Klebs could cut it at OT, the kid would get his chances... My thoughts are that SAF doesn't believe that (a) Kleb can get healthy and stay healthy, and (b) doesn't believe that he can play fast enough...

He's been great when he's got his chances though. He just hasn't had enough of them. Whether that's from a stingy SAF, too many injuries, or a little of both, we'll never know.