How do the crowds play out with multiple teams in the same city?

[Steve Dave]

In London for example with so many teams in the city do visiting team fans of the bigger clubs overshadow home team fans?

Does each for have a big enough fan base to represent well or when arsenal comes to play do their fans overshadow the home fans since the travel distance is an issue?

[Colm]

Nope, there is allways a limit on the amount of away fans on each ground. If Fulham were to play Tottenham at craven cottage, Fulham would still get most of the fans in the ground even though Tottenham are from the same city and have a bigger fan base, theres allways a limit to away team fans in each ground.

[Steve Dave]

Is there a limit because the home team will always sell those tickets or is there just a limit? Are there empty seats some times because of the limit?

[rdhancock]

It is because there are a limited number of tickets available for away supporters. There is also a limited area where they are allowed to sit. There are matches where the away section will be completely sold out and the much larger home section will have very few supporters. This is a public safety issue that is governed pretty strictly by the government.

[RichardL]

Away fans are normally allocated a particular stand. This makes segregation a lot easier than trying to segregate fans in the same stand - especially as you also need to provide separate refreshments & toilet facilities as well.

Yes, sometimes you'll get games, especially lower down the leagues, where an away team may sell out their 2000 or so seats, but only 5000 of the 8000 home seats might be sold out. It might seem 'logical' to allow the away team to have 3000 more seats to fill the ground, but the problem is that tickets, including season tickets, will have been sold for seats all over the home allocation, so there just won't be spare blocks of two or three thousand seats to put away fans in.

For example, there were 3000 empty seats in the home stands for this game, but no obvious places where you could put any substantial number of away fans.
http://www.aowd76.dsl.pipex.com/match_reports/Reading_away/Reading_away.html

(the woman in the bottom photo also shows that rumours of inbreeding in East Anglia are not necessarily myth)

[JohnR]

Been following European soccer for years and I still find it an odd concept that you can't trust fans of different teams to sit next to each other.

NFL games are all about violence but the vast majority of the time it's perfectly safe to attend an NFL game while wearing the visiting team's colors and while cheering (loudly) for the visiting team. You'll get mocked, but no more.

[John Boy]

As clubs have to finance the building of their own grounds, stadium capacities are generally based on the demand for tickets, and in the Premier League demand will more often than not be at it's highest. Premiership rules state that all clubs must offer 10% of ground capacity or 3,000 tickets (whichever is lower) to the away side. The away side side can choose to take a lower amount or the home side can offer more. At the moment I'd imagine the largest allocator of away tickets is Blackburn Rovers who routinely offer 7,000 of their 30,000 capacity ground to clubs who have the potential to sell them. Without doubt when the big North West clubs visit them away fans will manage to get tickets in the home end, but different clubs have different measures to stop them selling tickets to away fans. Even in this case, it's unlikely that the away numbers would come close to outnumbering the Blackburn fans.

However, it is feasable that it could happen next year. Wigan are currently second in 'the Championship' eyeing promotion. They currently average 9,861 per game in a 25,000 seater stadium (source (http://www.soccer-stats.com/divisions/attendances.asp?divno=2)). This is only their second year in the 2nd tier of English football having spent most of their time as a non-league club. The ground was built by their rich Chairman for them and Wigan Warriors Rugby League club.

[RichardL]

Been following European soccer for years and I still find it an odd concept that you can't trust fans of different teams to sit next to each other.

NFL games are all about violence but the vast majority of the time it's perfectly safe to attend an NFL game while wearing the visiting team's colors and while cheering (loudly) for the visiting team. You'll get mocked, but no more.
it is something of a mystery. Many say it was the greater availability of disposable income and cheaper travel which lead to greater away support in the 1960s which caused the change, but that doesn't explain why glasgow derbies for example, where in the 40s/50s there may have been tens of thousands of away fans, didn't see mass disorder.

Others point to similar timeline reasons, but put forward the idea of it being the rise of youth culture. It was the time when you had mods & rockers fighting on brighton's beachfront. Those that travelled were (and still are) predominantly young males.


You could alternatively ask why there's almost a tradition of fans in the US celebrating a trophy win to trash a city, yet that doesn't happen over here.

[JohnR]

You could alternatively ask why there's almost a tradition of fans in the US celebrating a trophy win to trash a city, yet that doesn't happen over here.

Fair enough.

Another big difference between the two countries is the attitude toward changing allegiances. Ask somebody in the U.S. about which NFL teams he supports and you're likely to get something like, "Well, I used to be a Bengals fan but they were so bad that after a while I started following the Colts. I've been a Colts fan about 6 years now."

Nobody would blink an eye. It wouldn't be seen as an act of disloyalty, treachery, "glory hunting," you name it. It wouldn't be seen as anything but a simple statement of fact. To which the proper response would be, "Um yeah, makes sense."

[RichardL]

However, it is feasable that it could happen next year. Wigan are currently second in 'the Championship' eyeing promotion. They currently average 9,861 per game in a 25,000 seater stadium (source (http://www.soccer-stats.com/divisions/attendances.asp?divno=2)). This is only their second year in the 2nd tier of English football having spent most of their time as a non-league club. The ground was built by their rich Chairman for them and Wigan Warriors Rugby League club.
It did happen when Wimbledon were at Sulhurst Park. Their record crowd was over 30,000 v Man Utd, and probably at least 2/3rds were Man Utd fans.

Wigan currently allocate 8000 seats down one side to away fans. As they sell seats in the other three stands to home supporters, I'd imagine away fans will still 'only' get 8000. The lure of the premiership should be enough to ensure the other seats are reasonably full.

Wigan's entire league history/crowds
http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/wiga.htm

10 years ago they averaged 1,845 so although still poorly supported, their crowds have risen quite a bit.

[RichardL]

Fair enough.

Another big difference between the two countries is the attitude toward changing allegiances. Ask somebody in the U.S. about which NFL teams he supports and you're likely to get something like, "Well, I used to be a Bengals fan but they were so bad that after a while I started following the Colts. I've been a Colts fan about 6 years now."

Nobody would blink an eye. It wouldn't be seen as an act of disloyalty, treachery, "glory hunting," you name it. It wouldn't be seen as anything but a simple statement of fact. To which the proper response would be, "Um yeah, makes sense."
does that happen though in cities with a team or just other teamless cities?

It does happen here, but generally only with kids. Sometimes you'll get someone who'll move to a new town and start popping along to his new home town's team and just get into it, but that generally only seems to happen when the two teams aren't natural rivals in terms of size. But no, an adult who said I used to support Man Utd, but I support Chelsea now, would be really laughed at.

[Steve Dave]

Away fans are normally allocated a particular stand. This makes segregation a lot easier than trying to segregate fans in the same stand - especially as you also need to provide separate refreshments & toilet facilities as well.


I'm not understanding, why would there need to be separate refreshments and bathrooms? I understand want to put fans together because I would much rather be around and cheering with people who are rooting for the same team but the seperate bathrooms and such?

Lets say I am a fan of Crystal Palace and they are playing Arsenal and Arsenal are at home. All the away fans tickets for Crystal Palace fans have been bought but not all of the home arsenal tickets have been sold. As a fan a Crystal Palace whats keeping me from just going and buying a tickets at the stadium or where ever and going to the game and sitting with arsenal fans? This is just a made up situation and I have no idea if it is realistic or not just picked two teams for the hypothetical question.

-Thanks

[50 Euro]

Fair enough.

Another big difference between the two countries is the attitude toward changing allegiances. Ask somebody in the U.S. about which NFL teams he supports and you're likely to get something like, "Well, I used to be a Bengals fan but they were so bad that after a while I started following the Colts. I've been a Colts fan about 6 years now."

Nobody would blink an eye. It wouldn't be seen as an act of disloyalty, treachery, "glory hunting," you name it. It wouldn't be seen as anything but a simple statement of fact. To which the proper response would be, "Um yeah, makes sense."
I respectfully beg to differ. I can maybe see this occuring in parts of the country where there isn't a local team, or if said individual was under 15 years of age, but even then that's pretty weak IMHO. And this type of thing does happy in the UK, and Europe, people might just be more hesitant to vocalize it.

[Steve Dave]

You could alternatively ask why there's almost a tradition of fans in the US celebrating a trophy win to trash a city, yet that doesn't happen over here.

To be fair it isn't the fan celebrating by trashing the city. It is a select group of morons who use the oppertunity of everyone out and about to break into places and start trouble. Also its not like it happens after every title, I think the last time it did was 4 years ago when michigan st won a basketball title and all that really happened was a bunch of drunk idiots started a car on fire and burned wood. I am sure it has happend in between but the last I remember was in Detroit in 84. So I don't think I would call it a tradition.
:)

[JohnR]

does that happen though in cities with a team or just other teamless cities?

Everywhere. Plenty of Laker fans these days in Chicago, although with the Bulls' recent resurgence that will change.

Nobody would have the slightest problem with a lifetime Chicagoan saying, "I was a Bulls fan back when Jordan was around but I don't like them now. I follow the Pistons. I like the way they play. Old style, you know." Even though the Pistons were Enemy #1 during Jordan's days.

Then again, you guys think it's a big deal when, say, Alan Smith goes from Leeds to Man U. An act of faithlessness. This loyalty to the fan base thing. We'd shrug. Professional athletes are just guys with a job, like the rest of us, and they do what they think works for their career. Nothing personal.

Then again, you have these fan clubs that seem to have some kind of offiicial voice in how the teams are run. You have executives meeting with representatives of the fan base. As if the fans are stakeholders! Too weird. In the U.S., the owner owns the team and sells a product. If you like it, you buy it. You're not a stakeholder, you're a customer.

So we have many, many differences, the more I think about it.

[JohnR]

I respectfully beg to differ.

?

I have guys all over the office supporting teams from all over country. Many of which are teams that they adopted later in life.

[TheKing G]

does that happen though in cities with a team or just other teamless cities?

It does happen here, but generally only with kids. Sometimes you'll get someone who'll move to a new town and start popping along to his new home town's team and just get into it, but that generally only seems to happen when the two teams aren't natural rivals in terms of size. But no, an adult who said I used to support Man Utd, but I support Chelsea now, would be really laughed at.
This happens everywhere in america the superbowl winner usually gains more fans the next year. A few years ago when Tampa Bay won you would see more TB jerseys but since they have not won lately you do not see as much TB jerseys.

[Steve Dave]

does that happen though in cities with a team or just other teamless cities?

But no, an adult who said I used to support Man Utd, but I support Chelsea now, would be really laughed at.

As far as the getting laughed at no I don't really think anyone here would get laughed at for jumping teams like that. Yes the hardcore fans of the one team would call you an idiot for leaving and the hardcore fans of the other team would be happy that you joined up with them but most wouldn't care. With a few exceptions of the big time rivalries.

I think the team changing depends on what kind of sports fan you are. If you are a fan of a team or the sport. Like me I am a fan of the Michigan Wolverines and that is who I root for. I don't care what else happens in college football if it isn't involving my team. But when it comes to the NFL while the Lions are very close I just don't have the same interest in the sport so I have been a fan of Denver, Baltimore, and New England. Same with soccer if it isn't the US National Team I don't care who wins or loses. If Man U gets beat by Blackburn it doesn't matter because I am a fan of the sport not a team. I guess I would root for who ever has the most US players on the team probably. So to tie this up I think it comes down to if you are a fan of a team or just the sport itself.

[50 Euro]

?

I have guys all over the office supporting teams from all over country. Many of which are teams that they adopted later in life.
Somewhat similar to what RichardL said with regards to the UK, I do know people that grew up in one part of the country (USA), but after moving to another area started to support the local team after living there. But changing allegiances :confused: . It does happen for sure, but I'd never simply shrug my shoulders and say oh well, if I found myself in a discussion with someone that is a lifelong Chicago resident, was a Bulls fan when they were the best team in the land, then now follows the Pistons??? My experiences have obviously been different from yours, I suppose I just don't see as big a difference between the sporting cultures of both countries as you do. :)

[RichardL]

Then again, you guys think it's a big deal when, say, Alan Smith goes from Leeds to Man U. An act of faithlessness. This loyalty to the fan base thing. We'd shrug. Professional athletes are just guys with a job, like the rest of us, and they do what they think works for their career. Nothing personal..
With Alan Smith it wasn't so much that he left, it was who he went to. It's known there is an intense hatred of Man Utd from Leeds fans. If he's gone to Liverpool it wouldn't have been much of a deal.
Some players get a big cheer when they come back to a former club. Some are booed, but kind of light-heartedly. It's all about circumstances. When a player makes a big play on his loyalty to a club, says he loves the club and would never leave etc, then jumps ship to the club's most hated rivals, people will not be happy. Paul Ince, for example, really annoyed west ham fans by posing in a Man Utd shirt before he'd even been sold.