ENGLAND v ARGENTINA - OVER THE YEARS.

[EMERSON MARKS]

I was interested in hearing from an Argentinian perspective, in relation to their games with England.

There's alot of interest here, when we play you. Created after Ratin was sent off in '66, then Maradona showed his evil genius in '86 (why didn't Peter Reid rugby tackle him when he had the chance?)

The 1-0 win over you in Japan, was celebrated (despite David Beckham's unconvincing penalty kick). Obviously in England, the game was viewed in a totally biased manner, with the press getting overexcited, and how we were going to win the tournament!!!

I always get the impression, that Argentina and Brazil, think of the English as donkeys (unskillful, long ball tactics).

Is this true?

[efernandez9]

there has been many threads that dicuss this issue over the yr at bigsoccer

I hope this will not bring the retards and the troll
I will shut down the topic- stay with futbol ONLY! Moderator Note....

[EMERSON MARKS]

I will shut down the topic- stay with futbol ONLY! Moderator Note....[/QUOTE]

Apologies. I did not realise.
Actually, on second read, I suspect my post may encourage distastful responses (or retards) this wasn't intentional though.

[efernandez9]

memories that persist?
most nasty trolls decide to take it against Diego....not the rest of the environment around the games arg vs england



http://www.diariodeportivo.com/imagenes/dia/FARAIMAGEN.jpg

[argentine soccer fan]

I was interested in hearing from an Argentinian perspective, in relation to their games with England.

There's alot of interest here, when we play you. Created after Ratin was sent off in '66, then Maradona showed his evil genius in '86 (why didn't Peter Reid rugby tackle him when he had the chance?)

The 1-0 win over you in Japan, was celebrated (despite David Beckham's unconvincing penalty kick). Obviously in England, the game was viewed in a totally biased manner, with the press getting overexcited, and how we were going to win the tournament!!!

I always get the impression, that Argentina and Brazil, think of the English as donkeys (unskillful, long ball tactics).

Is this true?

Hello Emerson. Thanks for coming to our boards. Hopefully we can navigate past the trolls, because this is an interesting topic. I can give you my perspective about the rivalry and about English football, as someone who grew up around the game in Argentina.

I can't say much about the 62 match, because nobody talks much about it. I think the England match wasn't really considered a rivalry back then, plus it was not a memorable one for Argentina. I've heard some old timers blame Toto Lorenzo for poor coaching during that WC, which led to the team underachieving. But surprisingly Lorenzo was allowed to keep his job after failing to advance. (Which happened again with Bielsa after 2002. I guess history repeats itself.) But there is probably no doubt that England won that match with ease. Perhaps if Argentina had kept some of the players 'stolen' by European national teams (Di Steffano was playing for Spain, Sivori and Maschio for Italy), things might have been different, but I suppose we have to give that one clearly to England.

1966 was a different story. I was too young to remember, but everybody in Argentina talked about it for years. People thought we had a team capable of winning the WC, and the general consensus among old-timers was that Argentina was robbed. The evidence cited is the Rattin incident, plus the fact that in the quarterfinals a German ref supposedly helped England against Argentina while an English ref supposedly helped Germany against Uruguay. (Add to this the way Brazil was fouled and kicked out of the tournament and you have fodder for a theory of a Euro conspiracy against the South American teams).

I had a chance to watch the tape of the 1966 Argentina-England match, trying to be impartial. It was a poor tape, and of course it is impossible to determine if the Rattin send-off was fair, because we cannot tell what exactly he said to the ref. (He claims to this day that he didn't say anything deserving ejection, but who knows?). Other than that, I have to admit that it looked like Argentina did go into the match with the intention of brawling, and that England at least tried to play football and probably got the better of the action. But it was a very tough match which I think could have gone either way before the Rattin send-off. What happened afterwards was a shame, as obviously some of the Argentine players lost their head. But still, I think Robson's comments about the Argentines being 'animals' cannot be justified under any circumstances.

Anyway, I got stuff to do. I'll come back later to comment about the later matches, and about Argentine impressions of English football in general.

[sangreazul]

As an impartial fan ( I am neither English nor Argentine) I was wondering if the clubs had as much to do with the rivalry ??? I guess I am referring mainly to the Estudiantes-Manchester U finals of the world club championship back in 1968 I think. I'm guessing that alot of the Manchester players were on the 66 squad that played in the argentina game and some of that may have carried into the final vs. Estudiantes ....

[EMERSON MARKS]

Hello Argentine Soccer Fan, I'm fairly new to the site and I understand efernandez9's post about this thread leading to possible ill feeling towards Maradona.

However, the '86 World Cup was my earliest memory of football. The media were outraged by the Diego's 'hand of God,' and I suspect may have manipulated many to harbour hatred towards our South American counter parts.

I wasn't to know. I was an eight year old boy playing football with my pals. At that age you're not cynical. As I recall, Maradona was the player many of my friends were pretending to be on the playground at lunchtime (even scoring with their hands!).

Others had his sticker from the football albums of the time on their lunchbox, next to Gary Lineker. I remember Barry Davies the English commentator saying, 'You have to say that's magnificent' as Maradona danced through a sea of England players before scoring. Although I was upset, I was mesmerised; and a fascination with world football began. I clearly recall watching Maradona at Italia '90, this little man, warming up against Cameroon at the San Siro, keeping the ball up with his shoulder! I tried it in the garden unsuccessfully later on.

What I really don't like in England, is the narrow mindedness, that some aspects of the media try and fuel. Often by using political slants, which I find unexceptable. Of course I want England to win when they play against anybody, but I'm not interested in bad mouthing other nations. First and foremost I'm a football fan.

I suppose it wasn't helped by Alf Ramsay (not Bobby Robson) in 1966, calling the Argentineans animals. He certainly didn't improve relations between the two countries. I agree with you, that was an opinion he could of kept to himself. Had he said it today, I imagine FIFA would of gone mad. I think he stopped some of our players swap shirts as well!

As for '98, well, we should've taken a chance on Gascoigne and Le Tissier. Yes I know I'm being hyperthetical and nostalgic, but c'mon, we should of done!

[leoriver]

I was interested in hearing from an Argentinian perspective, in relation to their games with England.

There's alot of interest here, when we play you. Created after Ratin was sent off in '66, then Maradona showed his evil genius in '86 (why didn't Peter Reid rugby tackle him when he had the chance?)

The 1-0 win over you in Japan, was celebrated (despite David Beckham's unconvincing penalty kick). Obviously in England, the game was viewed in a totally biased manner, with the press getting overexcited, and how we were going to win the tournament!!!

I always get the impression, that Argentina and Brazil, think of the English as donkeys (unskillful, long ball tactics).
Is this true?

Welcome aboard Emerson..

From what I know and think is that Argentina - England has become what it is from that memorable game in Mexico 86.I know Argentina played and lost to England in England 66 but I dont think right there and then that was just another game eventhough Argentina was knocked out of the World Cup,I wasnt even born at or around that time but ive seen videos and have tons of family members that told me about the game and what happen to Rattin and all but still noone would ever think what the outcome will be of what a Argentina vs England means today.We all know that the Malvinas(Falklands) have alot to do with the rivalry of today like it or not.We Argentineans show it when Argentina plays England or not even.If you ever attend an Argentina match you can hear the fans sing about the Islands,war,and about England.Thats it,its in our heads and hearts all what happen and will never be forgotten,dont get me wrong im not trying to start anything by this just letting you know how some or most of us see it.I personally dont have anything against England but when it comes down to soccer England and Brazil are the by far the top 2 teams I hate the most and I also believe all argentineans do aswell.But out of the soccer world I get along with just about everyone.

Must admitt a Argentina- England is one of the most hyped games out there,after the war in 82 the country was devastaded and till today with all the problems theres in the country futbol is a way out of the normal day living in our country so iin Mexico 86 vs England was a perfect chance of bringing a smile back to the peoples face and even better leaving out England,and the way it was done.I dont think I have relive those moments.Then I remember a friendly if you can call it a friendly that was played in Wimbley, Argentina and England ended up in a draw,2 a piece in where in that game there was alot of rough tackling and fighting,arguing,and just about a lil bit of everything,Argentina was down 0-2 then somehow came back and tied it with a spectacular header by Franco almost from outside the box,even thoug it was a friendly I know the ones that were bitter were the english.Then moving on to the game in France 98 and once again Argentina leaves the english folks bitter and pissed as hell as they were knocked out of the WC.Then England got some what of revenge in Japon 2002 by beating us 1-0 off a Beckham penaltykick.Yes I know England was happy but it wasnt or atleast from my understanding it didnt have the same glory as of us winning the way we did the previous times.For the reason is that yes England won and all but they didnt get the pleasure of sending us home like we did in 2 WCs.Some England peeps say they did but we all know if Argentina wouldve won the final game in the group vs Suecia Argentina would have gone to the next round.But we didnt.

As for us thinking u guys as donkeys without skills,well you guys are improving ;-) Cheers and hope you enjoy your stay.

[argentine soccer fan]

I suppose it wasn't helped by Alf Ramsay (not Bobby Robson) in 1966, calling the Argentineans animals. He certainly didn't improve relations between the two countries. I agree with you, that was an opinion he could of kept to himself. Had he said it today, I imagine FIFA would of gone mad. I think he stopped some of our players swap shirts as well!


Hehe. My appologies to Bobby Robson. I guess that's what I get for trying to squeeze in a post quickly when I have to get to an appointment. Of course I know it's Ramsay who coached England to win the cup and called our players 'animals'.

As far as 86, Leoriver said it well. Everybody in Argentina was still thinking of the war and Margaret Thatcher and all that, and that is who we saw when we looked at the English players on the field. So, it was a game that had to be won for our country, more than just for football, and it mattered little that when Diego's goal came it happened to be a handball. And to top it off, when he scored the second goal in such brilliant fashion, it also helped to erase any problems anybody could have had with the hand ball.

I have watched that match many times and I am convinced that Argentina would have likely won it even without the handball. It seems to me that tactically we were in control of the game, even when it was zero to zero. But of course, we will never know for sure. But I can understand why the English feel so strongly that they were robbed. If it had happened the other way, I'd have been upset. I suppose that the handball helped to make the rivalry more intense from the English point of view.

[EMERSON MARKS]

Hello chaps, :cool:

Yes, I imagine after the Falklands War, the '86 game became a platform for the Argentinian people to liberate themselves. I guess that's why football is so great, it's a beautiful escape from the other horrors we can face in life.

Yes, there was the hand of God (c'mon Shilton, don't forget you can use your hands to!!) but regardless of that, I don't think we had enough creativity to win.

Aside from any political situation, Maradona was indeed a hated figure (in England, they loved him in Scotland!) to the masses - but if you asked any one individually, they would be unable to deny him his brilliance.

Leoriver, I do remember the Wembley game. I think it was in 1991, because Lineker was still playing. As for '98, well, the English press weren't complaining about Argentina, but they crucified Beckham. Although it was really over the top, it transformed him and he became a better player for it.

In Japan, the victory was significent to us, because we'd beaten one of the major powers of the game on the big stage. Goodness, I suppose it would of been tough for you boys in the quarter finals in 2002, to support England or Brazil?

Argentine soccer fan, no one can deny Maradona's sensational goal against England. When I see it now, I still think someones going to tackle him!!! His goal against Belguim was also one that sticks in my memory as well.

I hope he can regain his health. You never know chaps, our paths may cross again in Germany in 2006 (presuming we qualify).

[Gregoriak]

I can't say much about the 62 match, because nobody talks much about it. I think the England match wasn't really considered a rivalry back then, plus it was not a memorable one for Argentina.

Let me help out on this one:

England 3-1 (2-0) Argentina

2 June, 1962, 3 p.m., Rancagua, Estadio Braden.

England: 1 Springett - 2 Armfield, 3 Wilson, 16 Moore, 15 Norman - 6 Flowers, 17 Douglas - 8 Greaves, 19 Peacock, 10 Haynes (c), 11 R Charlton
Manager: Walter Winterbottom.

Argentina: 1 Roma - 18 Cap (c), 6 Páez, 15 R Navarro, 3 Marzolini - 5 Sacchi, 16 Rattin - 20 Oleniak, 19 Sosa, 10 Sanfilippo, 11 Belén
Manager: Juan Carlos Lorenzo.

Goals: 1-0 Flowers [18th, HP], 2-0 R Charlton [42nd], 3-0 Greaves [67th], 3-1 Sanfillippo [81st]
Referee: Latichev (USSR)
Linesmen: Morgan (Canada), Reginato (Chile)
Attendance: 9.794 (stadium 39% filled)

Only rarely did England meet some of the great South American football nations until this game. Only two games had been played vs. Argentina prior to 1962, one in 1951 in London (2-1 for England) and one in 1953 in Buenos Aires (0-0). Thus this match was not only a preliminary decision about the winner of Group D, but also a rare and prestigious duel between two traditional football powers representing the two competing football continents.

Despite losing to Hungary 1-2 in the first match, there seemed not much cause for too many changes in Winterbottom`s England team. Only Hitchens, the Inter Milan player and star among the English forwards, was substituted with Peacock from second league side Middlesbrough. Winterbottom chose a slightly more defensive orientation for this game, since it was the fast Magyar counter attacks that sealed England`s fate in the first match against Hungary. Also, Winterbottom wanted to counter Argentina`s robust Navarro with a player the same size (Peacock).

Argentina`s coach Lorenzo also changed his team in a few positions. The brutal defender Saínz was taken out of the team (which won its first match 1-0 against Bulgaria), apparently he had injured himself during one of his attacks against the Bulgarians. Nestor Raul Rossi, the man who was very important for Argentina`s attack missed the game due to injury, as did Facundo and Pagani.

Both teams started offensively, the Argies knew that the all-important second win would not be much easier to achieve against the strong Hungarians in the last match, while the English needed a win by all means to keep their chances of quartfinal qualification alive.

Greaves` header in the 8th minute was the first big chance of the match, but Roma saved. A shot by Peacock in the 18th minute initiated the first goal: the ball bounced back from the cross bar towards the goal line and Navarro could only save by using his hands. The resulting penalty Flowers converted safely. Thus the second English goal in the tournament again was not from open play (Flowers had converted another hand penalty against Hungary in the first match).

Bobby Charlton was to change that after a pass by Flowers, who had utilized a shot by Armfield which had hit the goal post. Thus short before half-time the Manchester United outside left scored the 2-0 for England.

The English started the second half even more determined and kept on attacking the Argie goal. In the 67th minute Greaves scored from close range by poaching the ball across the line. José Francisco Sanfilippo scored a consolation goal in the 81st minute after the Englis defence shortly lost their concentration. This however didn`t change anything about the English triumph against their supposed main-competitor for winning the Group. The English now had a better position, as their next opponent would be the weakest team of the group, Bulgaria, while Argentina had to face the strong Hungarians in their final match.

Argentina`s manager Lorenzo admitted after the game: "We must concede that the football we are used to playing is out of time. Although they don`t play as artistic in Europe, they play faster, more efficient, just more modern and more successful."

The Argie supporters had already turnt quiet after about 30 minutes in the match. The Chile newspapers celebrated Bobby Charlton as the best winger in the tournament so far, while the English defence led by Armfield also found a lot of praise from the locals.

[EMERSON MARKS]

Hello Gregoriak,
Your level of knowledge atonishes me. :eek:
Are you like a sponge, able to just sap every last facet of information from around you? Or are you just very well read? I enjoyed digesting your last post, keep it up. ;)

[argentine soccer fan]

Let me help out on this one:

England 3-1 (2-0) Argentina

2 June, 1962, 3 p.m., Rancagua, Estadio Braden.

England: 1 Springett - 2 Armfield, 3 Wilson, 16 Moore, 15 Norman - 6 Flowers, 17 Douglas - 8 Greaves, 19 Peacock, 10 Haynes (c), 11 R Charlton
Manager: Walter Winterbottom.

Argentina: 1 Roma - 18 Cap (c), 6 Páez, 15 R Navarro, 3 Marzolini - 5 Sacchi, 16 Rattin - 20 Oleniak, 19 Sosa, 10 Sanfilippo, 11 Belén
Manager: Juan Carlos Lorenzo.

Goals: 1-0 Flowers [18th, HP], 2-0 R Charlton [42nd], 3-0 Greaves [67th], 3-1 Sanfillippo [81st]
Referee: Latichev (USSR)
Linesmen: Morgan (Canada), Reginato (Chile)
Attendance: 9.794 (stadium 39% filled)

Only rarely did England meet some of the great South American football nations until this game. Only two games had been played vs. Argentina prior to 1962, one in 1951 in London (2-1 for England) and one in 1953 in Buenos Aires (0-0). Thus this match was not only a preliminary decision about the winner of Group D, but also a rare and prestigious duel between two traditional football powers representing the two competing football continents.

Despite losing to Hungary 1-2 in the first match, there seemed not much cause for too many changes in Winterbottom`s England team. Only Hitchens, the Inter Milan player and star among the English forwards, was substituted with Peacock from second league side Middlesbrough. Winterbottom chose a slightly more defensive orientation for this game, since it was the fast Magyar counter attacks that sealed England`s fate in the first match against Hungary. Also, Winterbottom wanted to counter Argentina`s robust Navarro with a player the same size (Peacock).

Argentina`s coach Lorenzo also changed his team in a few positions. The brutal defender Saínz was taken out of the team (which won its first match 1-0 against Bulgaria), apparently he had injured himself during one of his attacks against the Bulgarians. Nestor Raul Rossi, the man who was very important for Argentina`s attack missed the game due to injury, as did Facundo and Pagani.

Both teams started offensively, the Argies knew that the all-important second win would not be much easier to achieve against the strong Hungarians in the last match, while the English needed a win by all means to keep their chances of quartfinal qualification alive.

Greaves` header in the 8th minute was the first big chance of the match, but Roma saved. A shot by Peacock in the 18th minute initiated the first goal: the ball bounced back from the cross bar towards the goal line and Navarro could only save by using his hands. The resulting penalty Flowers converted safely. Thus the second English goal in the tournament again was not from open play (Flowers had converted another hand penalty against Hungary in the first match).

Bobby Charlton was to change that after a pass by Flowers, who had utilized a shot by Armfield which had hit the goal post. Thus short before half-time the Manchester United outside left scored the 2-0 for England.

The English started the second half even more determined and kept on attacking the Argie goal. In the 67th minute Greaves scored from close range by poaching the ball across the line. José Francisco Sanfilippo scored a consolation goal in the 81st minute after the Englis defence shortly lost their concentration. This however didn`t change anything about the English triumph against their supposed main-competitor for winning the Group. The English now had a better position, as their next opponent would be the weakest team of the group, Bulgaria, while Argentina had to face the strong Hungarians in their final match.

Argentina`s manager Lorenzo admitted after the game: "We must concede that the football we are used to playing is out of time. Although they don`t play as artistic in Europe, they play faster, more efficient, just more modern and more successful."

The Argie supporters had already turnt quiet after about 30 minutes in the match. The Chile newspapers celebrated Bobby Charlton as the best winger in the tournament so far, while the English defence led by Armfield also found a lot of praise from the locals.

I guess that explains why we don't want to remember it. :D

[Gregoriak]

Hello Gregoriak,
Your level of knowledge atonishes me. :eek:
Are you like a sponge, able to just sap every last facet of information from around you? Or are you just very well read? I enjoyed digesting your last post, keep it up. ;)

Thank you. I just took one of me old World Cup books and looked up the match report, and typed it in :cool:


I guess that explains why we don't want to remember it

We gotta hide this from the BS England crowd, their heads would get even bigger, I fear, if they would actually remember this fine match of their team back in '62... ;)

[EMERSON MARKS]

That's probably a good idea.
As an Englishman myself, I don't understand why the '62 World Cup is seldom mentioned, on our shores.

[colins1993]

Friendly @ Wembley 1979/1980(?)

Luis Caesar Menotti was the coach.

An English fan's banner read:

"We've come to bury Caesar's men, not praise them"


Check the origin of that paraphrased Shakespeare quote my literary friends.

[BorrachoNJ]

fascinating stuff...and it's great to see posters engage in a bit of soccer history like this, despite the hate felt by most.

i, for one, not being english or argentine, enjoy the pre-match, match, and post-match hype whenever the two sides meet. i still watch the match from France '98 and Korea '02 matche that i have taped. never tire of them.

plus, with all the rumors of an england-argentina friendly on the east coast in the U.S. this year, it would be more enjoyable to learn more about the storied rivalry when i tent out the night before to buy tickets!

[leoriver]

plus, with all the rumors of an england-argentina friendly on the east coast in the U.S. this year, it would be more enjoyable to learn more about the storied rivalry when i tent out the night before to buy tickets!

Where and when? If it happens.

[BorrachoNJ]

well, some of my brothers over in the gringos boards claim that england will be coming over to play a couple of friendlies this summer -- one against the U.S. and another vs the Argentinos...
Giants Stadium (new jersey) and Lincoln Financial (philadelphia) were mentioned as possible venues...

but nothing's been confirmed.

[leoriver]

well, some of my brothers over in the gringos boards claim that england will be coming over to play a couple of friendlies this summer -- one against the U.S. and another vs the Argentinos...
Giants Stadium (new jersey) and Lincoln Financial (philadelphia) were mentioned as possible venues...

but nothing's been confirmed.


Wow sounds interesting, I live in Florida and might have to make a road trip with the crew like we did a few years back when we went to see Argentina vs USA in RFK Stadium.Had a blast despite we lost.If they play in Miami it would be even better.