Personal opinion

[MetroChile]

What I'm about to write about may stir some controvery, and may cause some unrest, but I believe that one's opinion (as long as it's well-founded and respectful of those of others) should always be expressed.
I believe judging Mr. Augusto Pinochet is unfair. Now, before you say that I'm crazy for saying this, I'm going to present the facts. Yes, certain people were tortured, killed unfairly; and yes, some people who didn't deserve to dissappear, did in fact, dissappear. Now, if you compare this to the other likely scenario: probably a civil war, then it's obvious it was a small price to pay (as cold as it sounds). I'm in no way supporting or rejecting Mr. Pinochet's actions, however I do feel that he does deserve some respect at such a late time of his life.
If we're to judge him for what he did, fine, let's do it, but then let's find a way to prosecute the Belgian government for robbing everything Congo/Zaire had when they first colonized that area. The king (whose name escapes my mind right now) stole everything that was available there for his own riches, while the poor Congolese suffered under slavery.
Let us also find a way to prosecute all the descendants of the slavemasters here in America. How fair is it forcefully bring a group of people to a continent many miles away from their own, very far from their families, simply because a group of people (the aforementioned slavemasters) thought it was right?
Let us find a way to bring the American government into justice for dropping the atomic bombs in Japan. Those killed many more than Mr. Pinochet did.
Stalin himself officially orchestrated and encouraged pogroms throughout his Soviet Union. Anti-semitism, despite common denial, was public policy for his government. I bet not that many people know Stalin himself had a Jewish father (who also beat him); that, however, does not justify his actions. Let us then bring his descendants, or next of kin into trial, no?
Spain and England, who have been the most "supportive" (for lack of a better word) to bring Mr. Pinochet into trial don't escape any historical blame. It's well known that Spaniards, when they conquered the Americas, made fools of the indigenous peoples in America. Trading their belts for, for example, gold or other riches here. When Atahualpa was killed after he gave up the location of his gold, he trusted the Spaniards; yet he was betrayed.
England, although, not as well-known doesn't have a great record or treating their colonies very well.
America, itself practically bringing its own indigenous population down to an ephimer number. Now what's that? America's very earliest "official" settlers (the Pilgrims) found ways to persecute women simply because they dressed differently or maybe even becuase they had red hair, and therefore classified them as witches.
The French didn't treat Haiti very well, till the revolt. Let's also bring Japan into trial for all the atrocities they did to the Chinese during WWII. All the people that migrated to Australia--what happened to the aborigenes that lived there, eh?
I still don't see anyone trying to prosecute Galtieri's government in Argentina. He even arranged for them to win the World Cup. His human rights record was no better than that of Pinochet.
This is my opinion, and I certainly wish noone to become offended by it. It simply states facts. I'm in no way supporting or rejecting Mr. Pinochet's actions.

[Caturro]

Even though in no way I agree with the things that were done during the Allende years, there is no way to justify a mass killing of any kind. Supporting such a point would only question our dignity as reasonable human beings.

Allende's government was really a mess. Even though there's still people today that blame the horrendous economic problems of the Allende era on the economic blockade imposed by the US, the truth of the matter is that the country was gonna go down with or without external influence. You just don't do a revolutionary change in government when half of the people in the country do not agree with it. Civil unrest was great, although I'm not sure a civil war would've been triggered by it.

Nevertheless, to this day I still think Pinochet could've handled this much better. Although people say Allende killed himself, I think that was the last thing on his mind on that fateful day; after all, he would've done much more greater good to his cause being alive than dead, even if in exile. I believe that he was either forced to kill himself or killed, either way, Pinochet wanted him death.Truth to be told, Pinochet was obviously a puppet for the CIA, and so were all the other dictators at the time who participated in Plan Condor, and he let himself be used, at the cost of the lives of thousands of fellow Chileans killed and other thousands that were (in some cases) unnecessarily tortured. Was a change needed in the country? Of course, because people were obviously not happy with how things were going if they wanted a marxist revolution. Perhaps if people in the early 70's had been given more time to see the mistake they were about to make, chileans would've chosen to end the revolution. Then again, we will never know.

I'm partidary of democracy and of peaceful changes of goverment, and Pinochet brought neither. The excesses were grotesque and unnecessary. The result is division that still lasts to this day, and will not go away until that generation of people pass away.

This is, of course, also just an opinion. As chileans, the best thing we can do now is just look forward and work for a better future.

[MetroChile]

I too favor democracy, but if we follow what you say then let us prosecute everyone else I mentioned. It would only be fair. What you said about killing some innocent ones as well as torturing I also agree that that was wrong, not to mention that the CIA was never actually involved as they claimed (if you look at most of the times the CIA got involved, the situations--for lack of a better word--actually got worse). I do, however, respect your opinion.
I say we end this thread as many personal feelings may be touched upon which was never my intention.

[efernandez9]

why the justice took SO long to make HIM paid the penalties?

may be his crimes against chilean society have no punishment, but to go after an old senile crook has no sense at these date and age....

I do agree that all his 'pertenencias' and accounts should be sized by the governement of chile and pay for schooling of young boys in all the regions afected by his political assesinations.

IS ONLY MY OPINION!

[MetroChile]

why the justice took SO long to make HIM paid the penalties?

may be his crimes against chilean society have no punishment, but to go after an old senile crook has no sense at these date and age....

I do agree that all his 'pertenencias' and accounts should be sized by the governement of chile and pay for schooling of young boys in all the regions afected by his political assesinations.

IS ONLY MY OPINION!

Si fuera por eso, socio, entonces el dinero que recibio Samper de parte de los narcos tambien deberia ser confiscado y utilizado para ayudar a los mas necesitados o los damnificados en la violencia en Colombia.

[Caturro]

Creo que tu error es que tratas de comparar y coorrelacionar lo que Pinochet hizo con crimenes que otros dictadores han hecho alrededor del mundo. Al fin y al cabo, a nosotros no nos tendria que importar si Samper, el gobierno Americano, o Japon han hecho cosas condenables durante la historia y no han sido castigados debidamente. De esa misma manera, yo podria decir que matar a alguien no es condenamble porque OJ Simpson hizo lo mismo pero no fue a la carcel. Es una defensa debil y moralmente erronea.

En Chile, debemos dejar el ejemplo que los crimenes se castigan, y si en verdad los cargos contra Pinochet logran ser validos, no deberian quedar impunes. Es verdad que ya es muy viejo para que vaya a la carcel (aunque sea el hotel 5 estrellas que es Punta Peuco) y solamente le deberian dar arrestro domiciliario. Lo que si importa es que si el es culpable, entonces que quede en la historia de nuestro pais que el fue juzgado propiamente y que cualquier violacion a los derechos humanos no se van a permitir.

La verdad, a mi me agrada que se hablen de estas cosas: estubimos callados por mucho tiempo y es valido que se discutan estos temas ahora. Por esa razon, el tema no me ofende para nada, asi que no te preocupes :) . Mi padre es pinochetista y mi madre es democrata, entonces ha sido dificil para mi tratar de sacar mis propias conclusiones en cuanto a lo que paso.

[MetroChile]

No creo que mi opinion pueda ser considerada una defensa debil o erronea (si a eso te refieres). :confused:
A lo que voy yo es que hubo gente que mato a muchas mas personas y extranante nunca nadie busco la manera de enjuiciarlos.
Justicia es eso justicia, pero o se les hace pagar a todos o no pagan ninguno, pero no lo solo los que ciertas personas quieren. Si buscan la manera de llevar a juicio de alguna manera al gobierno chino, asi como al de EEUU por lo de la bomba atomica, y como Samper tenia conecciones con la mafia entonces el tambien deberia pagar porque debido a lo que han hecho los narcos hay mucha mas gente que ha sufrido.
Asimismo, tu tienes razon, pero mi punto es que no podamos elegir a quien vamos a enjuiciar. Yo nunca he escuchado que nadie diga que Truman fue un asesino, o lo mismo del gobierno chino, o de ninguno de los otros ejemplos. Quizas mi sentido comun es diferente al de otros, pero los casos que yo he nombrado en esos ha muerto mucho mas gente.
Enjuicien a quien quieran pero seamos justos en hacerlo
(porfa no se tomen a mal mis comentarios).
(y espero que no hayaz querido que mi opinion sea debil o erronea, porque yo he respetado tu opinion y hasta cierto punto incluso estoy de acuerdo contigo).

[efernandez9]

Si fuera por eso, socio, entonces el dinero que recibio Samper de parte de los narcos tambien deberia ser confiscado y utilizado para ayudar a los mas necesitados o los damnificados en la violencia en Colombia.
estoy totalmente de acuerdo! hay que probarlo y meter a ese señor a la carcel si ese fuera su pecado! pero aun no sale nada! ;)

[jlscrub]

Although very well written, you are absolutely wrong. Trying to say that Pinochet should not be prosecuted because other equally evil people slipped by is just plain moronic. And to imply that age should be used as a leniency for his actions is utterly unimaginable.

[MetroChile]

I guess since you seem to have the right to deem my opinion moronic I will say the same about your comprehension skills. I never outright said he shouldn't be prosecuted, I never said that what he was not wrong, BUT (hopefully you're able to read that but) there are people who killed many more with worse intentions but they were never prosecuted.

[Caturro]

I didn't mean to offend you - I totally respect your opinion and I'm not trying to discredit it. I just think that from a moral standpoint, your argument is weak, though I do understand what you mean when you say that everybody should be measured with the same stick. After all, Pinochet did do some good things for Chile and there's a lot of people that still support him (like my dad).

I just think that if we used the same justice standards as in Congo or Rwanda (where crimes go unpunished on a daily basis) then we wouldn't be going anywhere. We have to look at our own country and learn how to handle things in the best way possible. If Pinochet is found guilty on some of the charges against him, then he'll have to pay just like any other criminal.

I hope that explains my point of view a little bit better. :)

[jackrock]

I guess since you seem to have the right to deem my opinion moronic I will say the same about your comprehension skills. I never outright said he shouldn't be prosecuted, I never said that what he was not wrong, BUT (hopefully you're able to read that but) there are people who killed many more with worse intentions but they were never prosecuted.


you did mention prosecuting all the decendants of former slave owners? that would be like prosecuting Pinochet's grandchildren. If there was a way to bring the actual people who did this to justice then go for it, Pinochet didn't inheirent how things were being done, he implemented them being done. It's was HIS responibility, and the fault should lie with him. I am but a gringo who has never been to you wonderful country, but am dating a beautiful girl who's parents are from there, and what makes me the most confused is that your view seems to be common. Her father had relatives who were not communist disappear, and he is still singing the praises of the man.

[MetroChile]

You also did mention the word 'moronic' referring to my argument. About that I could care less. But what you're saying if however many people died when a the bomb died, this is just one example, is far less important and therefore less worth talking about than the 5,000 died as a consequence of any of Pinochet's order.
My grandpa had to flee the country not because he was being chased out or anything but he didn't want to make my family suffer. Just in case you thought I was favoring all of Pinochet's action.

[Caturro]

I think there's something that jackrock has to understand: the communist takeover wasn't fair for everyone. There's people that worked hard to make money only to see it be taken away by the goverment. It ruined many people's lives.

In the 1970 presidential election, 60% of the country did not vote for Allende: there were 3 candidates, and after a court ruling, Allende was declared president with approximately 33% of the national vote. Clearly, most people in the country did not agree with the marxist revolution that later on took place.

So, in a good sense of the word, for a lot of people Pinochet was a savior against the communist takeover and people didn't care about the measures that needed to take place as long as they got rid of any remnants of the infamous Allende government. It was honestly a period of time in which the country was divided into black and white sides.

I'm not defending under any circumstance you father-in-law's point of view, but his generation (like my dad's) are still struggling with the ideological differences of that period of type, which totally overlooked the value of human life. So, I'm just trying to show you where he might be coming from when he makes those comments.

Also, it is important to highlight that violence came from both sides, and my dad luckily survived the bombing of an apartment building in the early 80's in Valparaiso. It was later discovered that the authors of such bombing was a communist movement called MIR. This is one of events that probably shaped his actual ideological notion.

[efernandez9]

El Banco de Chile, principal entidad financiera del país, cerró las cuentas bancarias de miembros de la familia del ex dictador chileno Augusto Pinochet y de la Fundación que lleva su nombre, informó este domingo el diario El Mercurio.

Según el matutino, que cita fuentes de la familia, la medida también afectó a la cuenta de ahorro de un nieto de siete años del general en retiro. "La institución financiera anunció la decisión esta semana, luego de haber clausurado las de la Fundación Pinochet", señaló el diario.

"La familia relaciona todas estas medidas con el descubrimiento de las cuentas del general en el Banco Riggs de Estados Unidos y la investigación que encabeza el ministro (juez) Sergio Muñoz", afirma el periódico. ;)

El magistrado, que indaga también querellas por supuestos delitos de evasión tributaria, enriquecimiento ilícito y fraude al Fisco, determinó que los montos de las cuentas secretas del ex dictador (1973-1990) ascendieron a 15,9 millones de dólares.

Muñoz, que ordenó el pasado 23 de noviembre el embargo de los bienes de Pinochet :) , ha interrogado al propio militar, a sus hijos y a sus colaboradores más cercanos y también allanó la oficina del militar, en busca de "importantes documentos" financieros.

La hija mayor de Pinochet, Lucía Pinochet Hiriart, fue la primera en ser notificada el miércoles 12 de enero del cierre de la cuenta corriente que mantenía desde hace cerca de 35 años en el Banco de Chile, lo que se repitió con sus hermanos sin mayores explicaciones, agrega el matutino.

El Banco Chile también cerró las cuentas a la Fundación Pinochet, encargada de promover la obra y realizaciones del gobierno de facto que lideró el jubilado general.

[MetroChile]

Ojala entonces que se encuentre una manera de perseguir y cerrarles las cuentas a descendientes de Truman, Stalin, y Hitler. Seria lo mas justo, mataron a mucha mas gente.Ah pero se me olvidaba que por alguna razon Pinochet al matar menos es peor, y se me olvidaba que como no persiguio a un grupo etnico en especifico tambien es peor.
Disculpen mi ignorancia



!!! :confused:
(sarcasm galore)

[efernandez9]

Ojala entonces que se encuentre una manera de perseguir y cerrarles las cuentas a descendientes de Truman, Stalin, y Hitler. Seria lo mas justo, mataron a mucha mas gente.Ah pero se me olvidaba que por alguna razon Pinochet al matar menos es peor, y se me olvidaba que como no persiguio a un grupo etnico en especifico tambien es peor.
Disculpen mi ignorancia



!!! :confused:
(sarcasm galore) that money was not earned by the 12 yr old or the general doughter's

was earned during the yrs of crime by the general, that is not hard to understand, is it?

[MetroChile]

Pq le cierran una cuenta bancaria al nieto de Pinochet?
Acaso el tb dio ordenes para torturar a ciertas personas?
A lo que voy yo, que ha sido muy dificil de entender para muchos es que si Pinochet que ordeno la muerte y o desapricion de no mas de 5000 personas entonces a otros que mataron a muchas mas personas por ninguna razon alguna como Stalin o Truman entonces que se les enjuicie.
Hay gente, como el mismo Samper, que ha causado mucho mas sufrimiento.
Punto, ya no mas. Creo que mucha gente utiliza su ideologia politica para castigar a Pinochet, en ves de el sentido comun y/o la logica.

[efernandez9]

la logica me dice que un niño no trabajo por ese dinero, que su abuelo le puso capital fruto de sus actividades delictivas como general/tirano del pueblo chileno!

la victima al cerrar la cuenta no es el pibe....se buscan los dineros del abuelo, estan escondidos de muchas formas, CEST LA VIE