Catfish
15 Jan 2005, 01:09 PM
No.
No.
As much as there are racist elements in society.
The reason why I ask is because France has the largest population of Muslims in Europe and the also have the 3rd largest population of Jews in the world. Lots of anti-semitism spewing from France and with Paris being the capital and all.....just curious, not accusing.
gaijin
15 Jan 2005, 02:53 PM
Currently 0-0 at HT, should have had a penalty after Revault clattered one of our players. C'mon lads we deserve a goal.
PSG used to have an element of so called fascist support. They weren't as open as displaying swasitikas etc, but they would often sing alot of racist and anti-semitic songs. Their affilation with any kind of right wing group wasn't that open, and I never heard anyone mention it. It was very esoteric at the time (a time when I didn't follow the club.)
After a while the club just got plain sick of it and decided to kick out this ugly element in the club. They worked close with fans and the club liason to wipe it out.
Now what one must make clear that our "ultras" are not hooligans and they are not linked to violence be it inside or outside the grounds. People who create troube in the name of the Ultra groups aren't real fans and just use the good name of these fans to give reason to their social misgivings.
Now this is where it gets kinda of grey. The Boulogne does lean to the right wing, but it is no way extreme - say to the point of displaying fascist symbols like the Ultras Sur or the Irriducible. There is a "hardcore" element within the Boulogne that does have extreme tendancies and do encourage and often shout racist abuse. But this is a very small minority. Its a matter of the Ultras themselves trying to discourage them or litterally to get rid of them.
The events at the Metz game were justified, but it is the ignorant fans (many of whom are not members of any Ultra group) that caused this moronic and stupid behavior. Unless the Ultras were provoqued by opposing fans (which they weren't) then this would give cause to any trouble caused in the stands themselves.
The club and the supporter groups need to target those idiots and make sure this kind of behavior doesn't happen again.
And yes racism does rear its ugly head in France, just like anyother country. I had a friend who went to Switzerland recently - and he found the level of Nazi culture over there to be very frightening. And that's Switzerland!
Mel Brennan
15 Jan 2005, 07:40 PM
Another day, another draw. Jesus, get it together...
In other news:
Ogbeche fancies Lille move (http://skysports.planetfootball.com/list.asp?hlid=249944&lid=11&cpid=24&title=Ogbeche+fancies+Lille+move&channel=France)
by Patrick Haond - created on 14 Jan 2005
http://skysports.planetfootball.com/images/playerpics04_05/football/france/psg/ogbeche_bartholomew.jpg
Bartholomew Ogbeche is anxious to leave Paris Saint Germain during the transfer window and is hoping Lille firm up their interest.
The Nigeria international has been a forlorn figure at Parc des Princes this season as he has made just five appearances in Ligue 1, with four of those as a substitute.
After spending the second half of last season on loan at Bastia, Ogbeche was told by coach Vahid Halilhodzic that he was not part of his plans for this term.
But Ogbeche was unable to clinch a summer exit from the capital and is now keeping his fingers crossed he will secure a move before the end of the month.
Lille, who are chasing a UEFA Champions League spot, have expressed an interest and the 20-year-old is keen to see what the Northern French side have to offer.
"I want to leave PSG before January 31," Ogbeche told France Football. "I am disgusted, I am fed up.
"What I am experiencing is incredible. I don't know why Halilhodzic doesn't play me.
"I love PSG. I came here as a 15-year-old. I owe everything to Paris but I am being chased away from PSG.
"They have asked my agent to find a club. They will be happy if I leave. I hope Paris will make my departure easy and won't ask for too much money.
"I heard Lille have asked for information. I am happy, it is a good club."
rivellino1
16 Jan 2005, 02:57 AM
Another effing scoreless draw to start the 2nd half of this season. As PSG fans, we must acknowledge the fact that this squad is not good enough to compete for anything. These last two matches are proof that this squad can't score for s**t. Especially against two scrub teams like Caen and Toulouse. Coach Vahid is another reason why PSG is effing up this season. His outright refusal to use Ljuboja as part of the tandem with Pauleta has diminished the scoring capabilities of this team. That tandem propelled PSG into 2nd place last season and since that time it has been a struggle to score even one goal. Seeing a scoreline of more than two goals by PSG has been rare. Also Coach Vahid has pissed off a lot of players on this team such as Ljuboja and Ogbeche. It seems to me that the squad is turning off from Vahid's coaching just by these two matches. Vahid does not inspire the players to play beyond their capabilities. VAHID HAS TO GO BYE-BYE!!!
gaijin
16 Jan 2005, 07:28 AM
Disgrace. That's all I can say.
Upfront we are a joke. If Pauleta can't score (which he seemingly couldn't last night) we are screwed.
Its about time, Graille walked out before its too late and it really gets ugly.
In a way, I can blame Vahid for alot of our problems. But he can only manage what's in front of him. And at the minute, its not alot. Our defensive is looking much sharper and it appears its taken us 4 months to get it right. Now with the transfer window open, its about time we invested. Otherwise we are heading the wrong way.
The saga with Ljuboja really does piss me off. Because when he and Pauleta play, we look far more accomplished up front. That, I can only blame on the manager.
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Catfish, as for the Switzerland issue. There was a documentary on TF1 (I think.) that affirms my points.This guy went undercover and asked a women in a tatoo parlour if should could do a SS tatoo. She duelly obliged. The problem is a migration from Germany's strict anti-Nazi laws to a country with far more lenient views.
Read this, sorry if I'm flying off target here, fellow PSG posters.
Right-wing extremism as a lifestyle? That's an heretical thought, but it can explain many phenomena in the new German states, where traditional political frameworks only inadequately take hold or do not take hold at all. Right-wing extremism in everyday life today can no longer be understood by just asking questions about political parties and organizations, number of members and election results. Here, a worldly context--developed from right-wing beliefs, standardized behavior among youth, and the constant preparedness for violence--is on its way to becoming the norm. Without visible resistance, a type of counterculture is being created in which the ethical and humanistic values of democracy no longer have a place.
Those who drive attentively through the towns will notice a monoculture, especially among young males. The right-wing extremism of the late 90s is moving from the country to the cities. The pressure in the community to conform is strong; rejecting the prevailing right-wing views inevitably leads to exclusion and loss of social contacts. Those who have conformed are most prepared to become violent because they must constantly prove their loyalty to their clique, group or "scene."
In this type of organization, where one chooses to give up one's freedom, the higher-ranking or older members in the hierarchy can often avoid showing the typical characteristics of group membership, whereas the average right-oriented/right-wing extremist youths usually go all out in their appearance, which has only slightly changed from about fifteen years ago: short haircuts, bomber jackets, combat boots, polo shirts, and T-shirts from special sports clothing manufacturers (Lonsdale, Fred Perry), T-shirts printed with symbols, slogans, pictures and band names, the choice of either Domestos pants or jeans (special color fading techniques are currently "in"), parts of uniforms (olive green, fall/winter camouflage), and the most varied accessories such as patches, suspenders and baseball caps.
For the most part, clothing and some behavioral patterns are consciously adopted from the skinhead culture, which appropriately satisfies the exaggerated manliness and the rituals that are associated with it. Even if the skinheads with non-rightist or so-called "non-political" beliefs don't like it (though the latter belief is that politics should be kept out of the skinhead culture, a "non-political" skinhead can certainly also be a nationalist), most right-oriented/right-wing extremist youth describe themselves as skinheads and only wearily smile with condescension at the legendary "spirit of '69"--and they are the overwhelming majority.
In certain regions, children already start wearing this clothing when they are eleven years old, the equivalent of fifth grade; the numbers just go up from there. The most basic similarities between students with right-wing tendencies and organized right-wing extremists is the open and aggressive practice of inequality toward people and groups of people from which all of the hate groups stem (foreigners, those who have differing opinions, the homeless, Jews, Muslims, Christians, the handicapped, homosexuals, members of other youth groups).
The right-wing beliefs that an eleven-year-old carries with him are what he has heard at the dinner table. There, after having survived the GDR system and hiding out in an internationalist disguise, nationalism raises its ugly head. Derogatory terms like Preßkohle, Dachpappe and Ofenrohr (equivalent to "************," "coon," or "jungle bunny") were invented in eastern Germany to describe people of color, as was the term "Fijis" to describe the Vietnamese and all people considered to be Asian. The latter term has already entered into the colloquial language. It is therefore of utmost importance to warn people against describing right-wing extremism as a fringe group or a problem among youth, even if right-wing extremism is most visible as a phenomenon among youth.
The manner of dress plays two roles in demonstrating their views. On the one hand, it identifies that the person belongs to a specific group; on the other, it strengthens the person's status within the group. The typical entry-level attire includes a bomber jacket, most often still green in color and covered by a scarf from the wearer's favorite soccer team. The short haircut is only the second most important change. The third most important accessory is combat boots made by Doc Marten. Their uniform is consciously militant and is supposed to raise self-esteem, to suggest power and authority, to intimidate and to demonstrate their willingness to attack.
Ideally, the outfit should be associated with the values and norms that are defined as "national": order, cleanliness, discipline, hard work, loyalty, honor and pride... Everyone kindly turns away when they drink too much, belch and vomit. Getting drunk is a manly thing to do and is part of the stylized working class culture. It is important that one's "own" clothes are interpreted as making a political statement and are interpreted as an element of an "alternative youth culture"--even as a "national liberated zone."
Unlike the styles of other youth cultures such as the beatniks, punks, Grufties (death cults) or flower-power followers, the style of clothing is not a form of protest against adults, their parents, or their grandparents' generation. The number of girls who are right-wing oriented has always been relatively small up to now. The differences in manner of dress are quite apparent. The girls are slowly getting more involved, though in larger numbers. They appear more reserved, although the hairstyle of the culture--the "feather cut"--is becoming more common. They are, however, hardly any less aggressive than their male counterparts.
In addition to clothing, there are legends and myths that are passed on from generation to generation. There is a relict that has hung on from the days of the GDR, for example: LONSDALE T-shirts are part of the classic outfit. When the zipper on the bomber jacket or leather jacket is zipped up half way, the letters "NSDA"--which stand for "National Socialist German Workers" (instead of "NSDAP"--the National Socialist German Workers' Party)-- appear in a triangle. This is not obvious to outsiders, but is highly symbolic to the group.
In eastern and western Germany more than ten years ago, an alleged connection was made between one's conviction and the color of one's shoelaces: the "nationalists" wear white, political opponents supposedly wear red, and "anti-Semites" or "cop killers" wear yellow. Whereas the initiates still treat the color of their shoelaces as a secret sign of recognition, the older members no longer see them as important.
The accessories also serve two functions: political demonstration or outward provocation, and recognition and means of communication within the group. Accessories gained their current importance in the mid-80s, when punks started looking more like skinheads and acts of violence were often avoided only by giving one another certain signals.
"National symbols" already form elements of an internal language to a degree. These symbols are, as an article on the home page of the racist newspaper Nordische Zeitung states: "...not just a means of communication... With runes and ... symbols, pledges are sealed and desires are made manifest."
The colors of the German Reich are the most important symbols: black, white and red. It doesn't matter if it is the Reich flag or the naval ensign--they are only disguised symbols for the flag with the swastika--the national flag of the Third Reich. No one who carries the Reich flag at demonstrations wants to have the old Kaiser Wilhelm back again. Therefore, since the adoption of the naval ensign in the Canon of Regulation Infringements, the black-white-red "Reich's" patch is emblazoned on sleeves. The so-called "Proud Patch" ("I am proud to be German") is now rarely to be seen. Even the last people to wear it finally noticed that you have to be careful if you're going to wear the "Proud Patch." At the Monday demonstrations in Leipzig in 1989 and for months thereafter, there weren't just a few comrades walking around with a patch that had the Austrian eagle in the center of the noble maxim instead of the eagle of the German Reich.
Triangular patches representing different districts of authority were worn until members of the Viking Youth and the Free German Workers' Party were banned. These triangular patches were black and contained the symbol of the district in Gothic black lettering. Actually, in accordance with § 86a of the German Penal Code, the district symbol should have been banned since the creation of the Federal Republic of Germany and not just since the banning of the Viking Youth and Free German Workers' Party; however, this symbol, like the Wolfsangel rune, was still considered part of the attire of the German Young People, Hitler Youth and League of German Girls.
An expert witness who testified in proceedings against two young right-wing extremists in the district court in Grimma on March 3 and 4 of 1997 didn't see it this way. He found "no special connection to national socialist ideology; despite his knowledge and training as an historian, had he not been ordered by the court to investigate, he would not have associated the triangular patch with an organization of the Third Reich; he would especially not have identified it as a symbol from the Hitler Youth uniform." The defendants were acquitted... A ruling made by the regional court in Berlin with regard to the Celtic cross resulted in a similar weakening of the ban. No one dares, however, to wear the Sig rune (Hitler Youth, SS) or the Odal rune (Viking Youth) patches in public.
Instead, the most favorite symbol now is the number "88", worn as a patch or embroidered on their clothing. The number "88" stands for "Heil Hitler" ("H" is the eighth letter in the alphabet). The other favorites are "14" and "14/88." The "14" stands for the famous report about "14 words," roughly translated as "We must protect our race's survival and also ensure the future of Aryan children." The "14" and the patch "White Power" are both symbols of pure racism. Members wear Fred Perry polo shirts with the number "88" embroidered on the collars. Shirts with the number "88" are available over the Internet from the National Democratic Party of Germany for 29 marks (roughly 17 dollars).
New variants of the swastika, some of which have Celtic origins, are constantly appearing on T-shirts with right-wing extremist symbols or slogans. As of yet, there is still no general guide that is even close to covering all of the symbolism. The police in the German states are struggling to compile rough lists. The extremists are able to cleverly get around bans. Since the salutation "with German greetings" is banned, people just write or say "with forbidden greetings" instead. Everyone knows what is meant, but despite this, no one is prosecuted. Strange words that are used as a form of war against foreign influences are creeping into the language. Now, people wear T-Hemden instead of T-Shirts, send a Fernkopie instead of a Fax, visit the Young National Democrats' Internet Heimatseite instead of Homepage, and use the German script for their signatures.
The religious component is formed from a conglomeration of the Germanic pantheon, the natural religion of the Celts, and Viking myths. Those who are conscious of their elitism or of having a mission to fulfill, who are prepared to sacrifice others, and those who expect salvation in heaven are fed by this religious component. In contrast to Christianity, neo-heathenism, the "species-specific religion," does not stem from thoughts of equality; it is expressed openly--either with the hammer of Thor, which is worn on a chain around the neck, with relevant T-shirts ("Odin instead of Jesus"), replicas of Germanic and Celtic jewelry, which all mail-order companies of the organizations offer, or with rune graffiti. There are interesting examples of rune graffiti that are only comprehensible to insiders and that are filled with ideology. The symbol "W" is still considered an omega, but it is actually a rune that expresses an expedient return. In this context it is meant to express hope for the expedient return of the Reich.
The Reich essentially controls its "own music," which is also viewed as a "national liberated zone." The (Third) Reich appears in all of its facets (beliefs, military presence, economic structure) in the name of bands ("Division Wiking," "Oilthanasie," "Volkstroi," "Macht und Ehre," "Heldentreue," "Arisches Blut," "Volkszorn"); it is printed on CD sleeves and dominates lyrics. The "people's community" is turning into "national solidarity."
The new German states are strategically and tactically besieged by "national work for young people," the constant search for "accepted vehicles of culture," such as bands, which are immediately offered CD contracts. The traditional left-wing forms of music (folk singers) and forms of politics outside of parliament are being abolished. Learning from Mao means learning to conquer; the spirit of the times is tending to the right, and the long march through the institutions has begun.
cass75
16 Jan 2005, 07:51 AM
The reason why I ask is because France has the largest population of Muslims in Europe and the also have the 3rd largest population of Jews in the world. Lots of anti-semitism spewing from France and with Paris being the capital and all.....just curious, not accusing.
Some dangerous people are trying to import the israeli/palestinian conflict in France; and unfortunately there were muggings because of young french muslims (ill-mannered?lack of culture? i don't know).There were,there are and there will be racism and anti-semitism in our society...
There is a minority of racist elements at Boulogne ( above all R1's terrace with the I.B.R ),that's why i always prefer Auteuil's terrace where black,jews,arabs,asians and white lads all sing for PARIS pride and PSG ( even if i respect the Boulogne Boys 85.).
gaijin
16 Jan 2005, 07:58 AM
All my friends sit in the Auteuil. Even if someone said they sat in the Boulogne it wouldn't alter my perception of them. But usually if you are non-white, then you would sit in the Auteuil. You would not hear any racist abuse. But when I sat next to the Boulogne a few seasons back, one guy just tormented this black guy on the Nantes team. This give me a really bad impression of that area. Its sad because it has caused tensions between the two.
The thing is, I just think its that small hardcore element that is left over from years ago. You just can't seem to eradicate it.
cass75
16 Jan 2005, 08:01 AM
Catfish, as for the Switzerland issue. There was a documentary on TF1 (I think.) that affirms my points.This guy went undercover and asked a women in a tatoo parlour if should could do a SS tatoo. She duelly obliged. The problem is a migration from Germany's strict anti-Nazi laws to a country with far more lenient views.
I saw this documentary ( "Envoyé spécial" on fr2 ).Very frightening!
cass75
16 Jan 2005, 08:14 AM
All my friends sit in the Auteuil. Even if someone said they sat in the Boulogne it wouldn't alter my perception of them. But usually if you are non-white, then you would sit in the Auteuil. You would not hear any racist abuse. But when I sat next to the Boulogne a few seasons back, one guy just tormented this black guy on the Nantes team. This give me a really bad impression of that area. Its sad because it has caused tensions between the two.
The thing is, I just think its that small hardcore element that is left over from years ago. You just can't seem to eradicate it.
There are black guys with the Boulogne Boys 85.I'm mixed (black/arab muslim from my father and white catholic from my mother) and i went many and many times at Boulogne without being annoyed but that's true that they don't like the "racailles" look ( do you know what i mean Ganu? :confused: )
gaijin
16 Jan 2005, 08:33 AM
There are black guys with the Boulogne Boys 85.I'm mixed (black/arab muslim from my father and white catholic from my mother) and i went many and many times at Boulogne without being annoyed but that's true that they don't like the "racailles" look ( do you know what i mean Ganu? :confused: )
Maybe it was just my experience. But one guy was shouting some unrepeatable things. I'm not saying the Boulogne is exclusively white only, I was saying that the majority of non-white fans sit in the Auteuil.
The racailles are just idiots, who don't understand the principles of the honest fans. They'll just cause trouble and say it in the name of PSG. Those bastards are in no way affiliated with my club....
Catfish
16 Jan 2005, 09:38 AM
I'm not surprised and yes it is very disturbing. I have met one Nazi in my life and it was quite scarey. It was in the Army. He invited me over to his house off the base, way out in the country. His dog was a Rottweiler named "Seig". I should have known something was weird with a name like that, but I was clueless until we entered his basement. He had a HUGE authentic Nazi flag from WWII. My jaw hit the floor and I just played it cool.