Bayern Munich are 3rd in Bundesliga Attendance Table

[Catfish]

http://www.fcbayern.t-com.de/en/news/news/2004/02518.php?fcb_sid=5f216517c9eb80c7fefc6ab6e490a1af

I'm shocked that Bayern is 3rd. Even more shocking is that Monchengladbach and Dortmund are near the bottom of the table, BUT near the top in attendance. BVB is #1 and Gladbach is #4!!! They must have GREAT supporters. So what's up with Bayern Munich supporters? Their side is frickin in 1st, so what gives?

[arthur d]

http://www.fcbayern.t-com.de/en/news/news/2004/02518.php?fcb_sid=5f216517c9eb80c7fefc6ab6e490a1af

I'm shocked that Bayern is 3rd. Even more shocking is that Monchengladbach and Dortmund are near the bottom of the table, BUT near the top in attendance. BVB is #1 and Gladbach is #4!!! They must have GREAT supporters. So what's up with Bayern Munich supporters? Their side is frickin in 1st, so what gives?

First in the table = most supporters in the stadium? That doesn't make sense to me. What about factors like tradition (Gladbach - remember the 80s?), the stadium (Schalke), the people in the area (Schalke, Dortmund). Why do you think position in the table and attendance should be correlated? Not like that in England or the States either, I guess.

I also suspect things will change when the Allianz arena is opened. Ever been to the Olympiastadium?

[Catfish]

First in the table = most supporters in the stadium? That doesn't make sense to me. What about factors like tradition (Gladbach - remember the 80s?), the stadium (Schalke), the people in the area (Schalke, Dortmund). Why do you think position in the table and attendance should be correlated? Not like that in England or the States either, I guess.

I also suspect things will change when the Allianz arena is opened. Ever been to the Olympiastadium?

Your right Olympiastadium is not fan friendly, BUT the logic that a very successful side doesn't draw sellouts is shocking. What else can Bayern Munich do but be top of the table? I think that BM home support is the 1 of the lowest of any massive/successful European clubs (along side Juventus). Both clubs have the most titles and trophies and still are extremely competitive each season, but they still don't sell out their stadiums. That football, I guess.....it's not suppose to make sense.

[BMGuy]

I guess that's because Juve and Bayern play boring football.On top of that, people seems not to like Bayern much as they're the most successful club in germany ;) :p

With Magath, Bayern've played much more beautiful football and in the next 2 or 3 years, there will be more fans coming to the stadium.

I don't see the change would go to Juve for their style, too defensive. :(

[SirManchester]

Man, I would expect the Dortmund fans to all boycott their team with their form this season. Oh well, thats what makes football so damn great. Supporint a team in terrible form can have its payoffs, been there.

[Aussibayer]

Your right Olympiastadium is not fan friendly, BUT the logic that a very successful side doesn't draw sellouts is shocking. What else can Bayern Munich do but be top of the table? I think that BM home support is the 1 of the lowest of any massive/successful European clubs (along side Juventus). Both clubs have the most titles and trophies and still are extremely competitive each season, but they still don't sell out their stadiums. That football, I guess.....it's not suppose to make sense.

Fc Bayern do not get the crowds at matches that Schalke and Dortmund get for several reasons.

1) the policy of FC Bayern to see fans as sources of revenue more than anything else. The FCB AG caps the number of season tickets at 20000 for a reason. So that as many casual supporters from all around the place have access to going to matches. Look at it from a $ (or Euro) point of view. You get 60000 season ticketholders. They all may maybe 1 shirt or scarve each season. However if you cap season tickets at 20000, you are allowing 43000 seats to be available for sale to fanclubs who come to Munich in their buses. Or to casual supporters who don't come all the time. Considering the fact that casual fans may each buy 1 shirt scarf etc, that is that much extra income the club derives from merchandise sales. It goes without saying that 63000 on-and off supporters are more than likely to buy a new team strip each week than if you had the same 63000 people in the ground each match.

2) the ground facilities. It is just awful to be honest. At big European matches it certainly hums, but for your average Bundesliga match it is often 50-70% full, especially on the non-cover Gegengerade on the outer side of the ground. Munich has savage winters with heaps and heaps of Alp-effect snow. You have to be a pretty hardy soul to sit on the Gegengerade in this in January and February.

3) The crap atmosphere the Olympiastadion generates at all but the biggest of matches. Sure my friends in the http://www.clubnr12.de and http://www.schickeria-muenchen.de try and belt out the songs the best they can. But for the most part the atmosphere just drifts out into nowhere, especially in the often sparsely filled outer side.

4) the fact that FC Bayern supporters are often not from Munich itself and wil pick and choose which matches they come to town for. Considering the amount of midweek league cup and Champions League matches we play, I guess this is understandable. But I still think our club deserves better tha the 24000 we got to a huge DFB Cup tie against Vfb Stuttgart.

Hopefully we will see the same situation we see in Hamburg since the Stadion an der Muelverbrennungsanlage was opened. Even though HSV are totally crap, the crowds are generally always over 40000 because of the spine-tingling atmosphere at matches. I was there in 2001 (complete with my big flag http://www.stadionwelt-fanfotos.de/stadionwelt_fans/Fan-Fotos/Fotos-Fussball-Fans/Stadionatmo_Fussball_Deutschla/Bilder_Atmo_Bayern_Munchen/BilderBayernMuenchenS0001B6/BilderBayernMuenchenS0001B6-2.html) to see FCb win the championship in the most dramatic of circumstances. The ground gets the biggest thumbs up possible. I rate it more highly than even the San Siro that I attended a couple of days afterwards. The facilities and atmosphere are just top notch!


I have my concerns about the issue of there not being terracing at the http://www.allianz-arena.de in Froettmaning, but I'm itching to be able to see matches in the 'rubber boat'. I'm sure the atmosphere will be 1000% better than what it presently is in the Oly.

JF

[Mattbro]

The Olympiastadion is a horrible place to watch a game, believe me. Running track around the pitch, no roof to keep the sound in or the rain off the spectators. Atmosphere: zero. It really is not a particularly enjoyable experience, even though the team is a perennial contender in every single competition and the players are always world-class.

Plus it's tough to get motivated for a Saturday game against e.g. Freiburg or Rostock when you're used to watching Real and ManU on Wednesdays.

Also Bayern's fanbase traditionally comes from outside Munich, so they might tend to pick and choose which games to attend.

But first and foremostly it's that graveyard of a stadium that is keeping people away.

[Mattbro]

Munich has savage winters with heaps and heaps of Alp-effect snow. You have to be a pretty hardy soul to sit on the Gegengerade in this in January and February.

Errm, that's why the BL has the good sense not to schedule games in January and February.

Incidentally, the reason Gladbach's attendance is so good is that they have a new stadium. Until this year they had great trouble selling out their much smaller ground (which I have been to and really liked, by the way - it was run-down, but oozing with history).

And unlike the Olympiastadion, Dortmund's stadium is a breathtaking place to watch a game. The atmosphere alone is worth the price of admission.

[Gregoriak]

Errm, that's why the BL has the good sense not to schedule games in January and February.


There are games in February, and also sometimes in late-January.

[Mattbro]

There are games in February, and also sometimes in late-January.

Well I'll be damned - my mistake.

[MarioKempes]

Having been to Olympiastadion, I can concur that it's not a good venue for watching football (soccer).

[Aussibayer]

Having been to Olympiastadion, I can concur that it's not a good venue for watching football (soccer).

1860 home matches there were even worse.


Ples, this has to be said. Munich does not 'need' football as much as the pepople in the industrial Ruhr area. In Munich you have the Alps, skiing, Italy at your footsteps. It is German's most affluent city, unemployment is around the 4% mark (and how many of them aren't try to look for work). Purely and simply life is good for the Muenchner, despite the very high cost they pay to live in the city. Henceforth they just don't need their football teams to help them forget their daily life.

Fc Bayern being more a Schwabinger team also reflects their more white collar middle class supporter base. 1860 are more from Munich's more indistrial south. Yet even that is nowhere near as industrial as say Gelsenkirchen Bochum Duisburg Witten or Dortmund. Munich is a flashy big money city. The Ruhr definitely is not!

What do they have in the Ruhr; maybe the chance of losing their job or something? Or a trip to Holland or somewhere for the weekend if you can afford it. People use football as a way of escaping from their depressing life in the steelworks etc. Hence the passion levels are infinitely better than that what is shown by the average Muenchner fan (be it either a Roter or a Blauer).

Fuill credit to the Borussia Dortmund and Schalke 04 faithful for the crowds they get at their awesome home grounds. But Munich will hopefully step more into the ring once the Allianz Arena is finished. And people will get more passionate about the team because of the better atmosphere, as has been the case at Hamburg Schalke and Frankfurt (always passionate there, it must be said).

JF

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

I guess that's because Juve and Bayern play boring football.On top of that, people seems not to like Bayern much as they're the most successful club in germany ;) :p



Bayern may have the most enemies in Germany, but you also have the most fans, because many people like to support the top team. This is shown by the fact that Bayern have the most official club members and most fanclubs in the Bundesliga.

I think the problem lies in the unpopular Olympiastadion, this is shown because when 1860 munich have to play there, they don t have that many fans there either, compared to when they play in their own stadium. For me, the question is, why is the very beautifully constructed Olympiastadion so unpopular?

[Aussibayer]

For me, the question is, why is the very beautifully constructed Olympiastadion so unpopular?


Because it has no atmosphere, has no protection from the elements, is too far away from the pitch and has 1970s facilities.

If you stand in the Suedkurve singing "Da steht ein Arschloch im Tor" at people like Hildebrand for example you are taunting a guy nearly 100 metres away. He might notice you singing, but unlike in say Dortmund or Hamburg he will not be intimidated and put off his game. The sound just isn't intimidating, except for maybe against Real Madrid when the whole stadium is standing and singing.

I have been to the Gottlieb Daimler and it is even worse. The terracing for the Stuttgart fans isn't even behind the goals, it is behind the corner flag. And the terracing in the Untertuerkenheimer Kurve is basically this cage up under the scoreboard.I'd gather to say you'd be even further away from the action than you would be in Munich. The atmosphere as a result isn't brilliant. The people of Schwabenland deserve better I feel.Very soon only Stuggitown and Baerlin will be the only places with inadequate athletics tracks around the playing area.

Still I guess in the Stuttgart they still have a roof over their heads. And the LostBoys99 ultras can still wave big flags from inside the Kurve, unlike in Munich with its pathetic 1.3m limits.

[mis-e-one]

http://www.fcbayern.t-com.de/en/news/news/2004/02518.php?fcb_sid=5f216517c9eb80c7fefc6ab6e490a1af

I'm shocked that Bayern is 3rd. Even more shocking is that Monchengladbach and Dortmund are near the bottom of the table, BUT near the top in attendance. BVB is #1 and Gladbach is #4!!! They must have GREAT supporters. So what's up with Bayern Munich supporters? Their side is frickin in 1st, so what gives?

Arsenal only have the 7th or 8th highest average attendance in the Premiership, yet are one of the top sides in the division. Care to explain that? :)

[F96]

Yep, I've been to the Oly once and it's truly awful.

People are addicted to watch Dortmund in the Westfalenstadion, it's just not possible to get addicted to watch soccer in the Oly.

[Matschr]

I will enjoy watching football-games in the Allianz-Arena. There will be 66.000 spectators close to the field! And if the city Munich allows it, perheps in two or three years also 86.000 spectators.

[jonam]

Fc Bayern do not get the crowds at matches that Schalke and Dortmund get for several reasons.

1) the policy of FC Bayern to see fans as sources of revenue more than anything else. The FCB AG caps the number of season tickets at 20000 for a reason. So that as many casual supporters from all around the place have access to going to matches. Look at it from a $ (or Euro) point of view. You get 60000 season ticketholders. They all may maybe 1 shirt or scarve each season. However if you cap season tickets at 20000, you are allowing 43000 seats to be available for sale to fanclubs who come to Munich in their buses. Or to casual supporters who don't come all the time. Considering the fact that casual fans may each buy 1 shirt scarf etc, that is that much extra income the club derives from merchandise sales. It goes without saying that 63000 on-and off supporters are more than likely to buy a new team strip each week than if you had the same 63000 people in the ground each match.

2) the ground facilities. It is just awful to be honest. At big European matches it certainly hums, but for your average Bundesliga match it is often 50-70% full, especially on the non-cover Gegengerade on the outer side of the ground. Munich has savage winters with heaps and heaps of Alp-effect snow. You have to be a pretty hardy soul to sit on the Gegengerade in this in January and February.

3) The crap atmosphere the Olympiastadion generates at all but the biggest of matches. Sure my friends in the http://www.clubnr12.de and http://www.schickeria-muenchen.de try and belt out the songs the best they can. But for the most part the atmosphere just drifts out into nowhere, especially in the often sparsely filled outer side.

4) the fact that FC Bayern supporters are often not from Munich itself and wil pick and choose which matches they come to town for. Considering the amount of midweek league cup and Champions League matches we play, I guess this is understandable. But I still think our club deserves better tha the 24000 we got to a huge DFB Cup tie against Vfb Stuttgart.

Hopefully we will see the same situation we see in Hamburg since the Stadion an der Muelverbrennungsanlage was opened. Even though HSV are totally crap, the crowds are generally always over 40000 because of the spine-tingling atmosphere at matches. I was there in 2001 (complete with my big flag http://www.stadionwelt-fanfotos.de/stadionwelt_fans/Fan-Fotos/Fotos-Fussball-Fans/Stadionatmo_Fussball_Deutschla/Bilder_Atmo_Bayern_Munchen/BilderBayernMuenchenS0001B6/BilderBayernMuenchenS0001B6-2.html) to see FCb win the championship in the most dramatic of circumstances. The ground gets the biggest thumbs up possible. I rate it more highly than even the San Siro that I attended a couple of days afterwards. The facilities and atmosphere are just top notch!


I have my concerns about the issue of there not being terracing at the http://www.allianz-arena.de in Froettmaning, but I'm itching to be able to see matches in the 'rubber boat'. I'm sure the atmosphere will be 1000% better than what it presently is in the Oly.

JF
Quality post. Just my opinion to your first point. It is true that FCB caps the season tickets to 20.000 but that doesn't mean that to every match there are 43.000 "new" fans. Many fanclubs and private persons regularly buy tickets. I guess only a few thousands spectators are really "new" at each match (subtracting away support).

At all the deal is not really to make money from the merchandising as those few thousands "new" customer don't make or break anything but to give everyone the possiblity to get infected with the FCB virus and make him a future customer.

Btw, I suspect the new stadium to be sold out for every match of the 05/06 season (17x66.000). Only matches against Wolfsburg or Bielefeld on Sunday afternoons could see some seats left free. But at all surely 65k+ in 05/06.

[jonam]

I will enjoy watching football-games in the Allianz-Arena. There will be 66.000 spectators close to the field! And if the city Munich allows it, perheps in two or three years also 86.000 spectators.

If someday they get permission to expand capacity it will surely not be 86.000 but 76.000 (converting 10.000 home supporter seats into terraces). Let's wait and see how the traffic after the matches works out.

[herewego]

86.000 would be possible.

The capacity is 66.000 seats and both clubs, Bayern and 1860 will sell 10.000 of this places as non seaters 1:1. Interesting is, that they don´t use to convert the same seats. 1860 uses seats in the north stand, Bayern in the south.

The seats would by capacity be able to be converted by a factor of 2:1 in non seaters but that is right now not allowed by bavarian government because of a lack of infrastructure like parking places and traffic capacities.

So theoretically it could be 46.000 seats, 20.000 non seaters in the Bayern Kurve and 20.000 in the 1860 Kurve = 86.000.

And in all, the seats are installed very wide, it is thinkable to put some more seats in the same space in the future.