So when do ya think this USSF-PA thingy will end?

[ursula]

It would be interesting to see your guesses now before too much else happens.

Also will there be a winner in this? How will it end?

[nyrmetros]

on the flight to Trinidad and Tobacco

[USvsIRELAND]

It would be interesting to see your guesses now before too much else happens.

Also will there be a winner in this? How will it end?

I voted more on what i hope.....

[scaryice]

3rd week of January...leaves enough time to have a short camp to prepare for Trinidad.

[Ronaldo's Idol]

The problem is, with this going into late January then all the MLSers like Eskandarian etc. who needed that extended camp to make an impression will not get their chance, and with WCQ's being the only scheduled matches until the summer, they may not get their chance at all. This is really unfortunate for them.

[swedcrip34]

Has anything like this happened in Europe?

As much as I realize the players don't all make enormous money and USSF probably does (though most USMNT players are now doing well in Europe), putting qualification at risk really shouldn't be an option. It's still important in growing MLS (I don't think the league would fold without an 06 WC appearance). Showing well in the WC can make everyone more money. Soccer just isn't strong enough yet to risk losing points in the hex. I'd like to think I'd play for free if the opportunity arose, but I'll admit I'm not in the players' positions.

I have to believe this will be settle a couple weeks before T&T at the latest. I just can't start to consider the alternative.

[scaryice]

The problem is, with this going into late January then all the MLSers like Eskandarian etc. who needed that extended camp to make an impression will not get their chance, and with WCQ's being the only scheduled matches until the summer, they may not get their chance at all. This is really unfortunate for them.

Guys like Eskandarian weren't going to play in the Trinidad game anyway, even if they played well in the friendlies. Maybe coming off the bench at best. Him and Gaven and everyone else will get their chance in the Gold Cup.

[babytiger2001]

Sometime in January-- there's far too much at stake (eg., three opening points in the Hex) to let it drag on much further than that. I think both players and management are well aware of that.

And that having been said, I'm sure there will be some sort of compromise at hand at that time, with the players coming out slightly ahead. Just a hunch on that last part.

[ursula]

Sometime in January-- there's far too much at stake (eg., three opening points in the Hex) to let it drag on much further than that. I think both players and management are well aware of that.

And that having been said, I'm sure there will be some sort of compromise at hand at that time, with the players coming out slightly ahead. Just a hunch on that last part.

I ask not only you but everyone else here- how sure are you that management and players feel that there's far too much at stake? I mean look at BS and specifically this board- full of fanatics who love cheering for our team. But that's a different- very different- position than either management or the players both of whom are making it clear at this point in time that this National team stuff is every bit of a business as club soccer is- or any business is for that matter. So when i see folks here posting about patriotism and bleeding red, white and blue, I realize that we here are not fully understanding the situation.

Because of that, and because there isn't a whole lot of press about this labor problem (compared to labor problems in the other major sports) I can imagine a couple of things:

1) That management truly feels that it can't go any longer without a contract to their liking; that if they wait till just before the actual WC then the players will have all the leverage. So the issue needs to be forced now and needs to be forced to their satisfaction- even if we do play a couple of games with scrubs and get hosed cause in the long run things will be much better. Management may feel that we can lose the first couple to several games and still qualify ahead of T&T and Panama. So why settle before T&T? There's no reason.

2) That the players realize that if they cave now their rights down the road will be sharply limited not only with USSF but in MLS as well. The players got into soccer not because they might have a chance to play for the National team- though they are happy to do so, but to play the best soccer they can and to make a living off of it. This means club before country ultimately, MLS and Europe before the Nats. With MLS slowly getting firmer footing, the players aren't dependent on USSF for pay anymore and besides with the success of MLS fewer and fewer soccer professionals in this country will even have the option of a career in the Nats. Finally any potential scabs know that as soon as this thing gets settled they will be off the Nats in a NY minute only to ply their trade with a club whose star Americans (in MLS) will not be in the least bit appreciative of their scabbing.

3) That both sides won't take the fans interest first, second, third, or hardly at all. This has been true for every other labor shutdown in sports- why should a few internet nut jobs like us bother the the two sides? it's not like they can go into many stadiums in america and find the crowd on their side...


I hope these thoughts aren't the prevailing thoughts.

But I think they are.

We may be in for a long dispute.

[TeamUSA]

I voted After the T&T match but before Mexico. I think it will happen after the match because the players will realize that they are going to be commiting suicide as well as a severe disservice to the future for the youngsters, rather than doing them a favor with thier appearance fees. The USSF will realize that they have lost fans, commercial support, and the money from the ticket sales (see two friendlies cancelled). And both will come to an agreement that could have easily been achieved between 2002 and December 2004. Dipshites, both the players and the USSF.

[csh2000]

After the February 1 deadline, but before kickoff of the Super Bowl - in time to get the players to Trinidad.

[jmeissen0]

1) That management truly feels that it can't go any longer without a contract to their liking; that if they wait till just before the actual WC then the players will have all the leverage. So the issue needs to be forced now and needs to be forced to their satisfaction- even if we do play a couple of games with scrubs and get hosed cause in the long run things will be much better. Management may feel that we can lose the first couple to several games and still qualify ahead of T&T and Panama. So why settle before T&T? There's no reason.



i'd differ on this.... bigtime

right before the world cup would be insanely bad for the players and ussf

right now, the players are in the driver's seat in terms of who is controlling this


the ussf will make much larger endorsements if the team makes it to the world cup, if they are already there... they have most of it... it just depends if the team makes it farther, like this past go round (which you can't even begin to count on)

before the world cup, there is much more publicity with the team being there... if the players strike... it will be a huge issue (well, much larger than it is now)... but right now, it's qualifying... we aren't there and the media doesn't care... making it ripe time for the players to move


the 3.5 slots really helps out ussf... it gives them a bargaining chip in that it's easier and we can do more without you... but i'd still say the players have the upper hand at the moment, because you haven't a clue who will cross and who will not... and i will bet they will get next to crap to cross



and this doesn't even begin to get into what i think of who is and isn't right... just what i see in how it works

[Martin Fischer]

I ask not only you but everyone else here- how sure are you that management and players feel that there's far too much at stake? I mean look at BS and specifically this board- full of fanatics who love cheering for our team. But that's a different- very different- position than either management or the players both of whom are making it clear at this point in time that this National team stuff is every bit of a business as club soccer is- or any business is for that matter. So when i see folks here posting about patriotism and bleeding red, white and blue, I realize that we here are not fully understanding the situation.

Well this is certainly intelligent and a warning for us all.

Because of that, and because there isn't a whole lot of press about this labor problem (compared to labor problems in the other major sports) I can imagine a couple of things:

Good idea to look at it from the points of view of the parties, not ours.

1) That management truly feels that it can't go any longer without a contract to their liking; that if they wait till just before the actual WC then the players will have all the leverage. So the issue needs to be forced now and needs to be forced to their satisfaction- even if we do play a couple of games with scrubs and get hosed cause in the long run things will be much better. Management may feel that we can lose the first couple to several games and still qualify ahead of T&T and Panama. So why settle before T&T? There's no reason.

Well this does explain why management has raised this issue now instead of waiting. But what is the USSF interest here? More specifically, is it really in the USSF interest to lose the first couple of games of World Cup qualifying over a few dollars?

Consider the following:

1. THe USMNT has never played well enough in qualifying to spot the opponents two games. Therefore giving up two games, especially a road game that many of our competitors have a good chance to win, is probably a death knell to qualification. If the USMNT does not qualify, what will happen to USSF revenue? I put the impact as LARGE.

2. What happens if no agreement is reached? Things go on as they have and the players are called in and can decide if they want to play for whatever the USSF offers. In other words, the harm from doing nothing depends on the probability that the players will actually boycott World Cup qualifiers. I put this impact as small.

Therefore, the harm from folding is small while the harm from standing firm is LARGE. The USSF self interest is obviously to settle.

2) That the players realize that if they cave now their rights down the road will be sharply limited not only with USSF but in MLS as well. The players got into soccer not because they might have a chance to play for the National team- though they are happy to do so, but to play the best soccer they can and to make a living off of it. This means club before country ultimately, MLS and Europe before the Nats. With MLS slowly getting firmer footing, the players aren't dependent on USSF for pay anymore and besides with the success of MLS fewer and fewer soccer professionals in this country will even have the option of a career in the Nats. Finally any potential scabs know that as soon as this thing gets settled they will be off the Nats in a NY minute only to ply their trade with a club whose star Americans (in MLS) will not be in the least bit appreciative of their scabbing.

I don't understand much of this. The fact that the players are not as dependent on the USSF for pay cuts both ways. They can survive without whatever the USSF pays them, so they have leverage. On the other hand, club pays the freight and the national team is just extra that provides a career boost. In addition, I believe that the top players are likely to value playing in the World Cup more than a marginal increase to their discretionary income. Finally, failure to qualify for the World Cup will hit revenues for MLS, thus actually hurting the livlihood of many of the players.

3) That both sides won't take the fans interest first, second, third, or hardly at all. This has been true for every other labor shutdown in sports- why should a few internet nut jobs like us bother the the two sides? it's not like they can go into many stadiums in america and find the crowd on their side...


They don't have to. This is a situation where almost any deal is better than no deal for both sides. It is a classic case where only the very stupid can screw up the negotiations, unless there are personality issues.

I hope these thoughts aren't the prevailing thoughts.

But I think they are.

We may be in for a long dispute.

Only if stupidity and incompetence really, really reign.

[afgrijselijkheid]

if the USSF so much as locks ricky davis out of the T&T selection, i will never be referred to as a "plastic dutchman" again - i mean... they can't be that dramatically stupid as to f*** with WC qualification... can they?

"that would be ludicrisp.... simply ludicrisp"
http://ww1.sportsline.com/b/apphotos/Tyson31496.jpg

[nobody]

I think Ursula makes some good points, but there is still plenty at stake for both sides. Namely, the World Cup, which is the biggest financial reward for both the federation and the players. I agree it's a business and they aren't necessarily all patriotic and playing for love of country and all that, but looking at the dollars and sense, qualifying for the World cup is the number one mission if any of these folks wanna get some scratch outta the situation.

Just dropping points for a couple games could very well jeoprodize qualification. Qualification all over the world teaches that upsets abound and every point is important. Losing to Mexico is no big deal, most teams will and we'd probably split points with 'em anyway, but to drop what should be three points against T&T is a pretty big risk.

It's in both sides interest to settle something, even if only a temporary agreement, before T&T. They could still screw it up, but there's a plenty big carrott dangling for them to work toward getting something together by then.

[jri]

Sometime in January-- there's far too much at stake (eg., three opening points in the Hex) to let it drag on much further than that. I think both players and management are well aware of that.

And that having been said, I'm sure there will be some sort of compromise at hand at that time, with the players coming out slightly ahead. Just a hunch on that last part.


Can the money generated be put into a trust until the situation is solved? Seems crazy to risk a poor performance against T&T

[ursula]

Only if stupidity and incompetence really, really reign.

I just quoted the last of your piece because that sums up what I fear the most. I look at every other sports strike and lockout and I see them all as really bad incompetence-driven actions by at least one of the parties and almost always the biggest idiots lost the most.

[Martin Fischer]

I just quoted the last of your piece because that sums up what I fear the most. I look at every other sports strike and lockout and I see them all as really bad incompetence-driven actions by at least one of the parties and almost always the biggest idiots lost the most.

Skip -- that's a fair concern. I will point out that in some of the other labor disputes, the benefits of hard action arguably outweighed the costs for one of the parties. In other words, it wasn't a situation where a stoppage would hurt both parties like I see it here. That situation is one where there are less outcomes where both parties are better off agreeing like the situation here.

The level of stupidity required to snatch defeat out of a negotiating situation where both parties will be harmed by a stoppage is higher than in some of the other sports labor stoppages. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean it won't happen. :(

[InnocentBystander]

...snip...

3) That both sides won't take the fans interest first, second, third, or hardly at all. This has been true for every other labor shutdown in sports- why should a few internet nut jobs like us bother the the two sides? it's not like they can go into many stadiums in america and find the crowd on their side...

...



Do you mean it's likely neither side cares what fans think? I don't think that's true, or, at least, I *hope* it's not true.

USSF probably does care about fan support. And I don't mean support at the stadium. Even as a so-called non-profit foundation, they do a fair amount of advertising about their own organization - TV ads, signs at games, sponoring of MLS teams. Seems to me the only reason to spend money on those thing is to cultivate good will in the soccer community. The public is more likely to get involved with USSF activities if they feel positively toward the foundation.

USSF is at a much greater risk of creating ill will than the players.

BTW, there is someone fans can do... Send a message to USSF at http://www.ussoccer.com/feedback/default.sps.

And I don't buy the argument that it won't make any difference. Sending a message to USSF will make a difference if they get enough response.

[Serie Zed]

I think the 70% who think it will end prior to T&T are being wildly optmistic.

The USSF is in the pocket of Anschutz, Kraft and Hunt and those guys are used to running a de facto monopoly where the players have been told for ten years now to "take it or leave it -- if you don't like your job, you can always leave the country."

Now that some of the players have found a bit of leverage and got a bit sassy in reply, I'm guessing that the Billionaire's Club will feel the need to let everyone know who's boss. If the players don't blink I think it could drag on for quite some time.