Diamonds versus Flat Four

[Viking Striker]

I was wondering which configuration coaches favor more, diamonds or flat four?

*Flat Four refers to either 4 defenders playing straight across the back; no sweeper or stopper.

*Diamond refers to playing with a sweeper and stopper.

I'd also like to know what coaches tend to use in the midfield, again: diamond or flat?

[Jeff L]

The "Diamond" is a midfield formation, and not for defence, which would either be a flat back four; playing with a sweeper, or 3 central defenders, with no full backs, but having 5 in midfield.
You would use the "diamond" with the more forward player assisting the attack and the last man helping the defence with the wider players doing both jobs in the circumstances warrant.
With that formation you really need players who know what they are doing.

[JohnW]

Jeff: sometimes over here you will hear the following defensive set-up referred to as a "diamond:" sweeper, stopper, two marking backs.

In this case, the two outside defenders man-mark, what are frequently the opponent's two strikers. The "stopper" plays defense centrally, sometimes marking the opponent's attacking midfielder, other times applying second defender coverage to any offensive forays through the central midfield area. Usually the defensive midfielder has first defender responsibility.

Of course, man-marking opponents has some benefits but one of its biggest weaknesses is that forwards who make intelligent runs--especially those coordinated with midfielders--can really cause imbalance and/or confusion as marking defenders can be pulled out to one side of the field, etc.

I think it's more common to see this type of set-up in lower levels of soccer.

I like a zonal defense, and personally I think the key to making it work is maintaining spacing and communication. Alas, that's another thread.

As far as the midfield goes, I generally like an attacking mid, defensive mid and two outside mids. I like the potential links with this midfield and the flat four. (I tried to illustrate but couldn't make the Xs come out like I wanted.)

[uniteo]

I think the first thing posters should add here is what groups they're talking about. In coaching U-14 girls I'm kind of caught between what I want to do and what the players are actually capable of. That and there can be so many names for what you are doing...

I call our formation a 3-4-3, but could just as easly consider it a 4-3-3 because I go with 3 in the back (zone play) my center back acts as a de facto sweeper and my defensive mid is of course a stopper and could be easily considered a defender (though I won't even whisper that around my primary d-mid since she tends to drop further back than I want).

I would prefer a 4-3-3 with wingbacks, but they have not been able to consistently make long runs out of the back without blowing their fitness for the game, and I have to adjust to my players with 1. a stopper that does great as long as she's aggressive and attacking the ball in midfield, but get's beat too easily when she hangs back and lets players run at her, 2. no good holding mid for a 4-3-3, because the girls with the ball skills won't get stuck in and the girls who'll win the ball don't hav ethe skils to feed their teammates, and 3. a great central defender who likes to act as a sweeper, but can be hesitant when she has a teammate there with her.

Plus, girls this age are by and large not making long crosses into the box, so it makes sense to crowd the middle and force the attack down the flank.

[goyoureddevils]

That's really what it's all about, isn't it uniteo? Finding the system that works best with the players you have available, not forcing the players to play whatever system you find fashionable/desirable to use.

The difference between using a sweeper/stopper vs flat back four is in the players you have to use there.

If you have four game-smart, skilled, physically strong and fast defenders who communicate well together, and a goalkeeper who they all trust implicitly to give them direction, then you can play flat back four. You can not play flat back four if you have four individual defenders who don't trust each other, aren't fast of mind and/or body, and who hate to take direction from each other or the goalkeeper or can't be trusted to understand the directions from their defense mates/goalkeeper. The players must all be on the same page and be willing to make sacrifices to shut out the opposing team.

If you have only one or two really smart defenders, or one or two who at least know what they're doing and have a strong personality, then this is a good time to use the stopper/sweeper system as it requires only one man to give direction and the others to be williing to listen.

[GROVESHSCOACH]

I coach HS girls in Michigan. I prfer the flat back system to the diamond. First of all i attack in a 3-5-2, therefore my center mid is my most important player on the field. In my system we defend in a 4-4-2. My right inside mid drops back to a central defending location. This works best because I favor a possession style working the ball out of the back throught eh center mid or outside mids.

In addition, I also enjoy pulling the trap. This is the main reason I use a flat back system.

[louras]

...the two outside defenders man-mark, what are frequently the opponent's two strikers. The "stopper" plays defense centrally...


OK, i have a big doubt on this one.. we are talking about low level footbal which means, basic communication and mechanisms:

Imagine the two outside defenders already commited to marking the oponent's two forwards.
Who has the responsability of challenging (or marking) an opponent's outside midfielder running by the side line (with or without ball)

1) Our outside midfielder will try to catch up with him and mark him. This overloads him phisicaly, and many times he won't be able to challenge on time... Besides, against a team that pushes the outside midfielders well forward.. we end up defending with 6 vs 4 (the back four and our two outside mids) leaving the stopper almost "out of the game".

2) Our closest outside defender will abandon the man he is marking (a striker) and close the line, expecting that the sweeper will be fast enough in filling this gap.. However.. this is a manoover that can go wrong, specially if it happens often...

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this...

Cheers!

[BC_Ref]

The offside trap of the flat four depends on you having a full crew of refs with ARs who are on the ball. If you are dealing with a solo ref or a crew with questionable ARs, then a sweeper/stopper system doesn't really hurt your offside trap chances (you are insane if your team traps with a solo ref) and adds a bit more depth in defense.

Otherwise, I'd say a general rule of thumb is that a flat three/four works better on average for a more skilled team while a sweeper/stopper system works better for a less skilled. So tailor your system to your players.

[Paddy31]

If you play the "diamond" in defence, do the full-bucks have to play really narrow?

I'm basically thinking of Germany circa 1974 (a great team), who had their widest defenders tucked very narrow, forcing the wide-midfielders to play deep. As a system it was wonderful, and gave Beckenbauer tremendous freedom.

[Ray Luca]

If you play the "diamond" in defence, do the full-bucks have to play really narrow?

I'm basically thinking of Germany circa 1974 (a great team), who had their widest defenders tucked very narrow, forcing the wide-midfielders to play deep. As a system it was wonderful, and gave Beckenbauer tremendous freedom.

Let me think Germany at that time played a man defense. Beckenbauer was a sweeper in a man defense. He was the free player had no one to cover. He covered other players mistakes.

[Ray Luca]

The offside trap of the flat four depends on you having a full crew of refs with ARs who are on the ball. If you are dealing with a solo ref or a crew with questionable ARs, then a sweeper/stopper system doesn't really hurt your offside trap chances (you are insane if your team traps with a solo ref) and adds a bit more depth in defense.

Otherwise, I'd say a general rule of thumb is that a flat three/four works better on average for a more skilled team while a sweeper/stopper system works better for a less skilled. So tailor your system to your players.

A flat four does not have to play a trap. A trap is a trap can do it with a sweeper/stopper or 3 backs and a sweeper to reinforce the backs or you can do it flat four.

[mmarty1]

We prefer a flat 3 with the weakside flank-midfielder dropping in for defensive coverage and the weakside wing-forward dropping into her spot. We play a 3-4-3 and prefer a direct attacking style. We have a talented High School girls group with very fast flank-mids; who can get up and down the field to support the attack or get back in time to cover on defense. However, not every team has the athletes to handle this system. As many have already said, pick your system and style of play the works for your team.

[junjunforever]

no offense, but i dont think any team at middle school level and not many teams at highschool level professing to use flat 4-4-2 is using it correctly. Even professional club teams have hard time using real 4-4-2, which needs to utilize offside traps with overlapping wingbacks that it was designed to do.


Perhaps in Europe or South America, its possible, as kids play soccer every weekend from age 3. But i dont see 4-4-2 happening in young kids match anywhere else.

[louras]

I'll repeat my question.. Maybe i made it a bit too confuse.
It those teams that play diamond in the back (with stopper and sweeper).. who challenges the oposition's outside midfielders running by the side-line when the lateral defender on that side is already commited to mark one of the strikers?

[blech]

I'll repeat my question.. Maybe i made it a bit too confuse.
It those teams that play diamond in the back (with stopper and sweeper).. who challenges the oposition's outside midfielders running by the side-line when the lateral defender on that side is already commited to mark one of the strikers?

i don't think there is any "one" right answer - there are a number of variations that you can choose - and even then it may depend significantly on the situation.

if the other team is in a 4-4-2, you would most typically have the two outside defenders marking, with a sweeper and stopper. if an outside midfielder is coming down for the other team, it may not be immediately necessary to pick up that player if there are more dangerous players in the middle. assuming you have numbers, i would think it would be easiest with proper training and communication for the stopper to pick up the forward, freeing the outside defender to shift out to the opposing mid, still leaving your sweeper free.

if your stopper can't get to the opposing striker, then perhaps your sweeper does it, freeing your outside defender in that manner, with the hope that the stopper can recover and now fill the vacant sweeper spot.

obviously, this has assumed you only have the two forwards to deal with. if the other side is in a 4-3-3 or if they have also pushed an attacking mid forward, the stopper may be preoccupied with that person, so until you get help from your own midfield, it would require the sweeper stepping up to allow this kind of shifting.

these are just some random thoughts off the top of my head. ask around and you'll probably get different answers, and again i think it may depend a lot on the situation, the talent of the opposing players, and the talent of your own players. my general rules (there are plenty of exceptions) include:
- i don't want my sweeper marking unless he has to (have others do the marking if you have numbers to do so and keep the sweeper free to sweep)
- if you do not have numbers and the sweeper has to pick up a player, keep the sweeper central and have another player shift to the outside - shifting takes an additional layer of communication, but is more efficient and keeps your sweeper (presumably one of your best players) in the center of the field
- if you're the defender shifting to the free opponent, don't shift to the outside until you have someone to hand off your original mark or until it becomes a true emergency
- prioritize the danger posed by the various opponents, and pick them up accordingly (as painful as it is to allow that outside mid to dribble down, until s/he cuts inside and gets into shooting range, any goal is going to come from the striker in the center of the field, so keep that person marked up first and foremost)
- and keep hollering for your own midfielders to get back!!!

[louras]

Thanks! That was my idea too. Infact.. both the sweeper and the stopper are quite tall, so allowing some crosses won't be the end of the world.. hopefully :)
Another thing:
The diamond is basicly a man-marking formation. But where do u set the line for this man marking... if a forward marked by the right defender runs to the centre, or to the oposite side.. do you usually make your marker follow him across the field (which is stupid but simple) or do you practice some switching with the stopper as soon as he enters his "zone"?
I guess that both of these are valable.. but i'd like to hear your opinions and experiences on this.

[blech]

Thanks! That was my idea too. Infact.. both the sweeper and the stopper are quite tall, so allowing some crosses won't be the end of the world.. hopefully :)
Another thing:
The diamond is basicly a man-marking formation. But where do u set the line for this man marking... if a forward marked by the right defender runs to the centre, or to the oposite side.. do you usually make your marker follow him across the field (which is stupid but simple) or do you practice some switching with the stopper as soon as he enters his "zone"?
I guess that both of these are valable.. but i'd like to hear your opinions and experiences on this.

it's going to depend on your players and your opponents. the problem with marking all over the field is that a good team can effectively destroy your defensive alignment by taking players out of position purposely. unless there is a specific reason to keep a specific defender on a specific opponent (size, speed, skill, etc), switching off makes a lot of sense and allows you to keep the opponent marked and keep your basic alignment. you can think of it like zone marking - your in a zone, but you will mark an opponent when s/he enters your zone. it does require some communication, but probably less than what would be required in a marking system where if you're not swapping marks, you should probably be swapping zones (i.e., if the left defender is going to follow someone to the center or right, then you probably are going to want your stopper to shift over to the left).