Potential replacement players

[scaryice]

I just heard on Thursday from one of their players that they do play under the same contract.

Well there goes Torres and J. Beasley. Carrieri, we need you!


Edit: Let's also start praying for the one-night only Jordan Stone comeback.

[Ronaldo's Idol]

While I agree that this is not fun to think about, it is probably worth considering because in the event this lockout actually happens, I don't want to be scrambling to know who is going to be on the field on Feb. 9th since the "due date" is Feb. 1st for a new contract.

That said, this is really really not fun to think about. A-League/MISL players determining the future of US Soccer (i.e. qual. for WC '06)?? We would be the laughing stock of the world.

[AndyMead]

The fact is zero or 1 point from the first two WCQs isn't a big deal. Away games suck, especially with one in Mexico.

I'm not too terribly concerned about the Trinidad game. A win would be a bonus, but a tie or loss isn't unexpected.

The big concern is the Mexico game because it's part one of the two games in 4-5 days. If we don't have the regulars in Azteca, we surely aren't going to have them at home on the mid-week vs Guatemala.

[RUUDVN]

How about Withbread, Karbasyoon, Kenny Kooper or even Kenny Arena ..

[Ronaldo's Idol]

I've played against Kenny Arena and believe you me, if he was on the field we'd get slaughtered. The whole "my dad is your boss" thing only goes so far.

[Ronaldo's Idol]

How about Withbread, Karbasyoon, Kenny Kooper or even Kenny Arena ..

I think Whitbread played with the U-20's and is therefore ineligible. Dunno about Cooper or Karby.

[Sandon Mibut]

So, thanks to the yeoman's work done by Dave Marino-Nachison, here is a fairly up to date list of Americans playing abroad.

I've eliminated any players who've been capped by the US senior National Team the last six years. Because some of the media articles have referenced the Players' Association representing anyone who has been capped the last four years. Thus a couple of familiar names from the Steve Sampson era are on there.

I've eliminated anyone who is born in 85 or after because there have been media reports saying the US won't use any youth national teams and anyone born 85 or later is age-eligible for a youth national team.

Three of the players I listed are capped by the YOUTH national teams in the country in which they play but I included them because they could play for the US under the new FIFA rules. I don't think they'll actually play for the US, particularly as a scab, but, hey, you never know.

Also, I eliminated anyone who is cap-tied to a senior national team of a different country (that I know of).

If there are any omissions or mistakes, my apologies. Feel free to make the corrections.

Some of these people have been called in to a camp by the national team the last four years and that may disqualify them. I think it's a dubious claim and one that likely wouldn't withstand a legal challenge. That said, those who have been in camp may be more reluctant to cross. Then again, they may see this as their big break. Again, who knows. I'm just posting the list for everyone's edification and to spark debate.

Al-Madon Tom 1984 Maccabi Haifa Israel (could still play for US under new rules)
Arnold Melchoir 1972 FC Chiasso Switzerland 02/03
Brown Adin 1978 Aaelsund FK Norway
Cleary Chris 1979 FC Worksop Town England 04/05
Coiner Ryan 1979 Union Berlin Germany 04/05
Collins Duane-Carl 1982 VfR Aalen Germany 04/05
Cooper Kenny 1984 Academica Portugal 04/05
Crawford Jimmy 1973 Shelbourne Ireland 91 (may be cap-tied to Ireland)
Cue Robert 1983 FV Bad-Vilbel Germany
Cue Jeremy 1982 KSV Klein-Karben Germany
Cummins John 1980 VfR Aalen Germany 03-04
Davidson Jun Marques 1983 Omija Ardija Japan 02/03
De la Torre David 1981 Querataro Mexico
DeMerit Jay 1979 Watford FC England 04/05
Dos Santos Paulo 1973 Aalesund Norway
Dunseth Brian 1977 Bodens BK Sweden 04
Edwards Jake 1976 Exeter City England 04/05
Elliott Jonothan Carlos 1984 Rossonese Italy 04/05
Feeney Cullen 1980 Portadown N. Ireland
Gibson Grover 1978 Jahn Regensburg Germany 04/05
Gonzalez Lucci 1980 Sporting Cristal Peru 04
Gregorio Adolfo 1982 Darlington FC England 04/05
Grenier Josh 1979 TuS Koblenz Germany 02/03
Haigh Nick 1978 Western Suburbs New Zealand 02
Harwat Kirk 1982 Borussia Moenchengladbach Germany 04/05
Hernandez Daniel 1976 Necaxa Mexico 03
Hilgenbrinck Chase 1982 Huachipato Chile
Jones Jermaine 1981 Bayer Leverkusen Germany (could still play for US under new rules)
Jones Sean 1984 FC Waldbreitbach Germany
Joy Ian 1981 Hamburger SV Germany 03/04
Karbasiyoon Danny 1984 Arsenal England 03/04
Katz Michael 1980 Belconnen Blue Devils Australia
Kayser Jacob 1983 FSV Optik Rathenow Germany 02/03
Kazlauskas Charles 1982 NEC Nijmegen Holland 01/03
Lukin Eric 1979 TuS Koblenz Germany 04/05
Mason Michael 1971 SV Elversberg Germany 02/03
Mason Marco 1971 TSG Wattenbach Germany 03/04
Matarazzo Pellegrino 1977 Preussen Munster Germany 02/03
McDougald Junior 1975 Canvey Island England 03/04
McKenna Matt 1973 PK-35 Finland 04
Morales Yuri 1981 Viborg FF Denmark 04/05
Myhill Glyn Oliver "Boaz" 1982 Hull City England 03/04
Nardiello Daniel 1982 Manchester United England 99/00
O'Brien Leighton 1976 Bodens BK Sweden 03
Payne Russell 1975 Shamrock Rovers Ireland 04/05
Philipakos Peter 1983 Olympiakos Greece 04/05
Rachubka Paul 1981 Huddersfield Town England 03/04 (could still play for US under new rules)
Ransom Larry 1983 SG Bruchköbel Germany 04/05
Russell Robert 1979 Rosenborg Norway 04
Sharp Brian SV 1921 Kyllburg Germany 03/04 (I'm guessing he's an 81 but hey, who am I to quibble with Dave)
Simek Frank 1984 Queen's Park Rangers England 03/04
Simis Bryan 1983 1. FC 01 Bamberg Germany
Simmons Kevin 1983 SV Wehen Germany 04/05
Skumawitz Adam 1979 Aalesund Norway 03/04
Stewart Tim 1983 FC Den Bosch Holland 03/04
Strohmann Greg 1979 SG Eintracht Bad Kreuznach Germany
Swetaz Benjamin 1981 B93 Denmark 04/05
Thomas Jacob 1977 VfR Lubeck Germany 04/05
van Buskirk John 1972 Rot-Weiss Erfurt Germany 04/05
Vasquez Schank Sergio Shane 1983 CD Las Rozas Spain
Wagner David 1971 TSG Weinhem Germany 02/03
Waltrip Brian 1978 FK Mandalskameratene Norway 04
Whitbread Zak 1984 Liverpool England
White Darren 1989 Hansa Rostock Germany
White Jeremiah 1982 Panserraikos Greece 04/05
Yelldell David 1981 Blackburn Rovers England 03/04
Zlateff Chad 1977 FC Kreuzlingen Switzerland 03/04

Dave didn't have birthdates for these players so I didn't put them in the above list as they may be too young. If they're born in 84 or before, obviously they wouldn't be.

Bingham Ben Ludvika FK Sweden
Cream Max Dundee United Scotland 03/04
Hammond James "J.J." FC Würzburger Kickers Germany
Hemmer Stefan FC Astoria Walldorf Germany
Hemmer Tobias FC Astoria Walldorf Germany
Murgatroyd Paul VfB Fichte Bielefeld Germany
Kolano Nate Ludvika FK Sweden 02
Loverso Steve Larne FC Northern Ireland 04/05
Oehlman Mark Ludvika FK Sweden 04
Olsen Kyle Ludvika FK Sweden 04
Otero Xavier FC Astoria Walldorf Germany
Schulte Mark IBV Iceland 04
Spencer Jonathan SV Weil Germany
Thorne Kevin FC Astoria Walldorf Germany
Williams Kenneth Kathmandu Club Nepal 02/03

[Sandon Mibut]

Now, a lot of these guys I don't expect to cross.

For the guys who have been in camp before, like Brown and Russell, they still have legit shot at playing for the nats and I they don't want to be pariahs on the team when they're called in, not to mention get whacked at in training. (I mean, given Brown's injury history, you think he wants to risk McBride taking him out with a forearm to the head when they're working on crosses?) So, I doubt we'll see them.

For the former youth national teamers who haven't been capped, they aren't members of the USNTPA so they wouldn't be breaking ranks, per se, if they played. But, guys like Whitbread and Simek probably like to think they have a legit chance to be on the team in the fairly near future and they don't want to be pariahs, either. I see them sitting this one out.

As I said above, the guys who are capped by other country's youth team could play for the US still, but I don't see them doing it under the best of circumstances, let alone now. (If he never gets called in by Germany's senior team during this cycle, I could see Jones being persuaded by his new teammate to play for the US in the future. Of course, that same new teammate will also discourage him from being a scab.)

As for Yelldell, Brad Friedel made a call to the USSF so that Mooch would look at him for the 23s so Brad's already done him a solid. Now he's got to see him everyday in training (barring the Newcastle move) and I can see Brad being one vindictive SOB if you cross him. So, I wouldn't count on seeing Yelldell!

So, what does that leave? David Wagner and Michael Mason, perhaps. It's not like they're jeopardizing future call-ups. Players like Grover Gibson, Ryan Coiner, Jon van Buskirk - career third or, if they're lucky, second division players in Germany or players like Yuri Morales or Russell Payne who are in a higher division but in a country where the league isn't as highly regarded.

As for who the best are and who is willing to cross? Beats the $hit out of me. But, this is what we're looking at and it's not a pretty picture.

[braun]

Now, a lot of these guys I don't expect to cross.

For the guys who have been in camp before, like Brown and Russell, they still have legit shot at playing for the nats and I they don't want to be pariahs on the team when they're called in, not to mention get whacked at in training. (I mean, given Brown's injury history, you think he wants to risk McBride taking him out with a forearm to the head when they're working on crosses?) So, I doubt we'll see them.

For the former youth national teamers who haven't been capped, they aren't members of the USNTPA so they wouldn't be breaking ranks, per se, if they played. But, guys like Whitbread and Simek probably like to think they have a legit chance to be on the team in the fairly near future and they don't want to be pariahs, either. I see them sitting this one out.

As I said above, the guys who are capped by other country's youth team could play for the US still, but I don't see them doing it under the best of circumstances, let alone now. (If he never gets called in by Germany's senior team during this cycle, I could see Jones being persuaded by his new teammate to play for the US in the future. Of course, that same new teammate will also discourage him from being a scab.)

As for Yelldell, Brad Friedel made a call to the USSF so that Mooch would look at him for the 23s so Brad's already done him a solid. Now he's got to see him everyday in training (barring the Newcastle move) and I can see Brad being one vindictive SOB if you cross him. So, I wouldn't count on seeing Yelldell!

So, what does that leave? David Wagner and Michael Mason, perhaps. It's not like they're jeopardizing future call-ups. Players like Grover Gibson, Ryan Coiner, Jon van Buskirk - career third or, if they're lucky, second division players in Germany or players like Yuri Morales or Russell Payne who are in a higher division but in a country where the league isn't as highly regarded.

As for who the best are and who is willing to cross? Beats the $hit out of me. But, this is what we're looking at and it's not a pretty picture.

Mason and Wagner are the duo that Sampson tried to resurrect in 98. It was a disaster. They "survive" only cause they're on minor-league German clubs. So, don't think it is likely we'll see them as replacements.

More likely would be a healthy Thorrington, who would come out of virtually nowhere.

Who would the A-league players be?
Rochester Rhino and Charleston Battery players, thrown in with Minnesota Thunder and Milwaukee ringers?

This is getting interesting. It's like an indie film.

On second thought, Arena's not going to quit. He's going to actually love this.

[the cup]

What would happen if we just forfeited the game?

Has that ever happened before?

[myshap]

The Crew brought Ian Joy in for a trial two years ago. He's a LB and extreamly unimpressive. He's been knocked around 3rd divison English and Scotish teams until being cut there, now he's with HSV--amatuer side.

I'd like to see Lucci Gonzalez at some point back in MLS. After he was traded to the Crew, they wanted him to take a development contract and he left for Sweden. Played with Leighton O'Brien and did pretty well there. Then moved to Sporting Cristal for some reason.

[lplaksina]

Certain of that?


yes

[SoccerFreak]

What would happen if we just forfeited the game?

Has that ever happened before?

If we forfeit, we lose the game 2-0, i think this is the forfeit rule. And it has happened. Before the 2002 World Cup, Congo forfeited a qualifer because of a lack of money to play.
That being said, I think the USSF would rather play the replacements than just not show up.

[Bill Archer]

I think the big key there will be Arena himself. If he steps in and says he wants the other MLS players, I doubt the MLSPA is going to stop him. Ultimately I think Arena will sit on the sidelines until mid-January hoping the two sides will work out their problems. At that point he jumps in and starts solving to issue himself. If successful, he can pretty much garuantee his next job as USSF president - I think the election is in August 2006(?).

Number One, I highly doubt Arena would take the job if you held a gun to his head.

Number Two, President of USSF is voted on by a bunch of soccer bereaucrats as diverse as the head of US Futsal (could it really still be Alex Para? Unbelieveable ) and the President of SAY. Breaking a USMNT Player strike isn't going to float these people's boats one damned bit. Except as fans, they could care less.


As for players "refusing to cross" there's an element that I think you're all ignoring, and that's how Arena really feels about the whole thing.

If he secretly sympathises with the players, which is entirely possible, then refusing to come won't hurt you.

IF however Arena really wants you to cross and you refuse, you can say goodbye to ever setting foot in a camp again until Arena leaves. Which could be a long, long, time.

In that scenario, you're very much stuck between a rock and a hard place: if you go, you may spend the rest of your career being shunned by a lot of players. If you don't, you have given up any hope of ever getting a callup.

[AndyMead]

What would happen if we just forfeited the game?

Has that ever happened before?

We'd almost certainly be punished severely by CONCACAF and/or FIFA. Probably by having some penalty (later reduced/waived) number of points assessed - or conceivably being thrown out of the Hexagonal altogether.

[ursula]

I think we'll know soon what Arena thinks cause if he's gonna bring in scabs then he's got a whole lot of training camp to put them through. No way does he wait till the last minute to cobble a team together.

But speaking of a possible long training camp, wouldn't he then run up against the FIFA rule that clubs won't have to release their players until a few days before the actual game? Potentially this could really limit the number of lower division Euros that he could integrate into his squad.

All this takes my mind back- with a shudder- to the early days of MLS and some of the players that Arena fielded. Remember how bad DCU was early on in 96 even with the likes of Etcheverry, Harkes, and Diaz Arce? He chose some seriously bad players back then. I say that if he goes scab we'll be seeing a few really bad players.

[ursula]

We'd almost certainly be punished severely by CONCACAF and/or FIFA. Probably by having some penalty (later reduced/waived) number of points assessed - or conceivably being thrown out of the Hexagonal altogether.

I agree so that's why Arena will put together a scab team. He basically has to go that route, regardless of his feelings.

[RUUDVN]

the national thing should not be about money, period. It's a pride ! pride ! pride ! ... players shouldn't even talked about money but, about how to carry the uniform in the way that will make the fans be proud as much as they do ...

[AndyMead]

the national thing should not be about money, period. It's a pride ! pride ! pride ! ... players shouldn't even talked about money but, about how to carry the uniform in the way that will make the fans be proud as much as they do ...

I don't think the major point is what % of revenues the players get. That's the most easily digestible part of the equation. I'm pretty sure that whether players get $2k/game or $10k/game, that's not the main sticking point.

The main point is ancillary revenues. Control and usage of player images. If the USSF wants to sell replica blank jerseys fine. But if they want to sell them with DONOVAN on the back, they're going to have to send a portion to Landon - or the USNTPA as a whole.

My guess is that the real crux of the matter is the ability of the PA to have control over commercial usage of their names and images in national team gear. Some of that exists now, but I'm guessing that they really want to strictly codify who controls what revenue streams and opportunities.

[RUUDVN]

can we persuade this college star to play for us,

soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=319464&cc=5901