EPL vs SPL - has the divide ever been greater? [Archive]

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oneforthemoney

15 Dec 2004, 05:51 PM

4 EPL teams into the final 16 of the Champions League

M'brough - finish on top of their group in the UEFA Cup

Not a single SPL team playing in Europe in the new year

What will become of the SPL?

What should Rangers and Celtic do?

Will the divide be even greater next year?

oneforthemoney

15 Dec 2004, 07:17 PM

Gordon EF

15 Dec 2004, 08:42 PM

4 EPL teams into the final 16 of the Champions League

M'brough - finish on top of their group in the UEFA Cup

Not a single SPL team playing in Europe in the new year

Hearts!;)

What will become of the SPL?

What should Rangers and Celtic do?

Will the divide be even greater next year?

The divide is samller than it has been in recent years IMO. In my view, this is the best SPL we have had in quite some years.

Flyin Ryan

15 Dec 2004, 09:14 PM

I think league strength in this sense is very relative. It depends on if you're comparing the #1 and #2 teams to each other from each league or the mid-table teams to each other. In other words, does league strength matter or does the top team strength matter? Depth has always mattered to me.

League Strength

Celtic vs. Chelsea
Hearts vs. Portsmouth
Kilmarnock vs. Tottenham
Dundee vs. West Brom

Top Team Strength (obvious fallacy of this is that for Scotland it's a top 33% of their league vs. England's top 20%)

Celtic vs. Chelsea
Rangers vs. Everton
Aberdeen vs. Arsenal
Hibernian vs. Manchester United

Holyjoe

15 Dec 2004, 09:20 PM

Rangers 0-1 Man Utd
Rangers 0-3 Man Utd
Celtic 1-1 Liverpool
Celtic 2-0 Liverpool
Celtic 1-0 Blackburn
Celtic 2-0 Blackburn
Celtic 2-2 Liverpool
Celtic 0-0 Liverpool
Rangers 2-1 Leeds
Rangers 2-1 Leeds
Dundee Utd 2-2 Man Utd
Dundee Utd 2-3 Man Utd

Just taking European results between clubs from the two countries in the past twenty years, the Scottish sides have a distinct results advantage (W5 D4 L3) over the English ;). The divide must have been greater during the 1960s when Scottish sides were continually dumped out by the English :p

Catfish

15 Dec 2004, 09:32 PM

Great thread. Honestly, I think the SPL is lacking to major keys that are related to each other to make a sports league successful:

1. Fans/Population: Scotland doesn't have nearly the population of England.
2. Money: This is a HUGE reason and of course the money comes from fans and money also buys better players and stadiums.

I still enjoy the passion and the spirit of the SPL and wish the league was on tv in the USA.....Fox Sports World.

oneforthemoney

16 Dec 2004, 08:12 AM

Hearts!;)

The divide is samller than it has been in recent years IMO. In my view, this is the best SPL we have had in quite some years.

Hearts?!?

Hearts still have a game to play - My bad? Will Hearts be playing in Europe in the new year?

Scottish_Morton

16 Dec 2004, 09:09 AM

I think Hearts will miss out tonight, but only by a point, there's been alot of bad luck for clubs this year.

I'd actually say the SPL is better than it has been for quite some time. There are alot more Scottish players now, the vast majority are, whereas the vast majority were rubbish foriengers only a couple of years ago.

For most of the 90s Scottish clubs were nowhere near making europe after new year. The fact that 2 came very close and Hearts still have a chance show we have moved on. I don't think Celtic are quite as good as recent seasons, but teams like Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen are much better. Rangers are probably better than they were the last 2 or 3 seasons.

The EPL is slightly better as well, with alot of money being put into the game down there.

So, in short, both the SPL and EPL are headed in the right direction.

oneforthemoney

16 Dec 2004, 05:23 PM

Newcastle go top - Hearts crash out - unreal

markdickson

16 Dec 2004, 05:37 PM

Of course the gap is bigger than ever but that’s because the Premiership has became the best league in the world. Its not just the SPL that’s lagging behind but every other league in Europe! Do you think that Middlesbrough would beat Bayern Munich for example? 4 or 5 years ago this would be ridiculous!

Scottish_Morton

16 Dec 2004, 05:39 PM

It's all about money. Most of the money in europe is in England right now. Look at the money the 4 teams in the champions league, or even in the uefa cup. Hearts, Rangers and Cleltic have no money to spend and can't attract the same kind of players.

But the divide is not bigger than ever, for most of the history of football the divide has been about the same. With some success for Scottish clubs here and there e.g. Dundee Utd and Aberdeen in the 80s.

-cman-

17 Dec 2004, 10:11 AM

uber_coupon

17 Dec 2004, 11:39 AM

The commercial success of the English Premiership owes its self, in part, to Sky TV. And it is them alone that would have the power to take the Old Firm to the Premiership.

If that were to happen though, I think association football would be at the mercy of the richest clubs in the UK and possibly Europe, similar to what is experienced stateside within the NFL set-up.

SJFC4ever

17 Dec 2004, 05:49 PM

if you take objective stats (ie the uefa country rankings), the divide was much greater quite recently -

1998:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method1/crank1998.html

1 Italy
2 Germany
3 Spain

6 England

26 Scotland

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/qual2004.html

2004:

1 Spain
2 Italy
3 England

9 Scotland

The interesting thing about this ranking is that obviously Celtic's run in the UC from 2 years ago helps a bit, but it doesn't matter so much as long as the OF can qualify for the CL reasonably often. This is because you get as many ranking points for doing okay in the CL than very well in the UC. You get three bonus points just for qualifying for CL, which is the equivalent of winning three matches in the UC.

Provisionally for 2005, Scotland is 10, but we might fall from this 1 or 2 places because there are some countries below us who still have teams involved this season. Although the only country that could realistically overtake us this season is Turkey (Fenerbahce are still in the uefa cup, and drew Zaragoza in the last 32).

Historically (ie in the 1960s and early 70s), Scotland was quite high (top five), but then steadily fell for the next 25 years, with the occasional bounce, eg Aberdeen and United in the 1980s, Rangers in 1992. We then fell dramatically in the mid 90s, but picked up again over the last 5-6 years as the OF spent a lot of money (relatively).

Now this money has dried up and it is hard to see where any further progress is going to be made. We will be doing well to stay in our current position (ie between 10 and 15), so that we keep two champions league qualifying places. It would take a dramatic influx of money (highly unlikely) or improvement in the standard of Scottish player to go any further.

You could also argue that it is impossible for the Scottish league to go any higher than 8th, because that is when you would get four uefa cup entrants (ie two more non-OF teams in europe). This would probably reduce the average points total as you couldn't see those teams go any further than 1 or 2 rounds.

You also have to consider that none of the countries above us presently have a smaller population (ie bigger market). If anything, the lopsided structure of Scottish football (ie two huge clubs, and a few reasonably large professional clubs) inflates our ranking, as the OF are only 1/6 of the teams in the SPL, yet they are 1/2 of the teams in Europe.

The English league has strengthened its position over the last 5-6 years (thanks to Murdoch's moolah), so maybe this makes it look worse than it really is. But I don't think there is much difference between the teams below the top 6 or so teams in the English league and the better teams in our league.