High number of goals scored per match.

[  ]

I was just browsing different leagues and noticed Bundesliga teams concede an unusually high amount of goals compared to other leagues.

Only the Scottish league comes close to Bundesliga goal conceding.
Is this evidence that Bundesliga defenders are on the same level as Scottish defenders or is it because the Bundesliga is more attacking than EPL, Spain, Italy and France?

[lond2345]

You tell us how many coaches in the Bundesliga are committed to attacking soccer and scoring lots of goals. You mention Spain, in Spain i know of real madrid and barcelona that have a CLUB POLICY to be entertaining.

[  ]

You tell us how many coaches in the Bundesliga are committed to attacking soccer and scoring lots of goals. You mention Spain, in Spain i know of real madrid and barcelona that have a CLUB POLICY to be entertaining.

Why don't you tell us.

I already have my own assumption and that is Bundesliga defenders overall are crap.

[96Squig]

Maybe som eteams are just excellent the one minute and then very bad the next...
But you compared more than the results of the last spieltag, didn'tyou? because that was kinda a lot of goals for BL1 ;-)

[  ]

Maybe som eteams are just excellent the one minute and then very bad the next...
But you compared more than the results of the last spieltag, didn'tyou? because that was kinda a lot of goals for BL1 ;-)


Well it was the catalyst which got me thinking about it.

I took the top 5 teams in selected leagues and compared them.
First numerical value is goals scored and second is goals conceded.
Now I do understand that lower table clubs concede far more goals than the elite but what does this say about German clubs competing in Europe?

Germany:

Bayern Munich 31 18
Schalke 04 25 20
VfB Stuttgart 30 17
Hannover 96 24 15
Werder Bremen 35 18

Spain:

Barcelona 30 8
Real Madrid 21 9
Espanyol 16 8
Valencia 22 11
FC Sevilla 16 15

England:

Chelsea 31 6
Arsenal 42 20
Everton 20 14
Man Utd 22 10
Middlesbrough 24 18

Italy:

Juventus 27 7
AC Milan 21 9
Udinese 21 13
Cagliari 22 22
Palermo 12 9

France:

Lyon 22 7
Lille 21 10
Marseille 21 16
Sochaux 21 15
Auxerre 21 16

Holland:

PSV Eindhoven 39 5
AZ Alkmaar 37 12
Ajax Amsterdam 36 17
Feyenoord Rotterdam 39 18
Heerenveen 27 25

Scotland:

Celtic 42 18
Rangers 34 8
Aberdeen 22 16
Hibernian 27 25
Hearts 18 13

[96Squig]

That is weird though
the BL is supposed to be a more competative leauge than most other in Europe, which would mean that our bad teams are better than the spanish or italian bad teams, but at the other hand our good teams do not to well in Europe (just wait till the end of this season). Maybe you should look at how the overall results were last year? and I think it may be a part of it that our bad teams sometimes have really bad days and then lose badly (Gladbach and Freiburg this weekend for example...)

[  ]

That is weird though
the BL is supposed to be a more competative leauge than most other in Europe, which would mean that our bad teams are better than the spanish or italian bad teams, but at the other hand our good teams do not to well in Europe (just wait till the end of this season). Maybe you should look at how the overall results were last year? and I think it may be a part of it that our bad teams sometimes have really bad days and then lose badly (Gladbach and Freiburg this weekend for example...)


Indeed, the Bundesliga is more competitive when it comes to Champions League and UEFA cup spots as well as relegation spots but do you really think that is because of superior quality? Or is it overall lack of quality to set one team apart from another.
By describing that the "good teams" do not do well in Europe contradicts your previous statement saying the "bad teams" are better than the Spanish or Italians.
I love the Bundesliga but when you compare it to other leagues, the quality just isn't there. If the EPL is supposed to be a league where there are no tactics then what does that say of the Bundesliga when the top 5 German clubs conceded 20 more goals than that of the English.

[aloisius]

If the EPL is supposed to be a league where there are no tactics then what does that say of the Bundesliga when the top 5 German clubs conceded 20 more goals than that of the English.

Because those are all just stupid stereotypes.
English league has good coaching, Bundesliga has quality.

There’s a bit more goals in the Bundesliga this year than usually. Proves nothing.

[  ]

Because those are all just stupid stereotypes.
English league has good coaching, Bundesliga has quality.

There’s a bit more goals in the Bundesliga this year than usually. Proves nothing.


Yes it was just an analogy to visualise the differences.

Do you not think there is a connection to goals conceded to overall overall strength in Europe?

and what quality do you speak of in the Bundesliga? If you're talking about "star" players, the EPL certainly boasts more.

[aloisius]

Goals conceded in domestic competition prove nothing when it comes to overall strength in Europe. If German clubs can advance deep in European competition, while conceding a lot of goals at home it will only be a proof of Bundesliga’s strength, not weakness.
It all comes down to performances in Europe. German teams were weak there in the previous 2 seasons, they are much improved this year. How improved, will see this week in Valencia and Leverkusen.

English clubs overall have more money and bigger stars because the English fans are willing to spend more money on football than anyone else. But the difference is not as big as it is often made up to be.

[  ]

Goals conceded in domestic competition prove nothing when it comes to overall strength in Europe. If German clubs can advance deep in European competition, while conceding a lot of goals at home it will only be a proof of Bundesliga’s strength, not weakness.

Hmm I just find it surprising that Bundesliga teams concede so many goals, if there is a correlation to overall quality... I guess it's one for the statistic freaks.

By the way eventhough off topic, there is a nice read at soccernet (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=317981&cc=5739) on Tasmania Berlin, the worst team in the history of the Bundesliga. I was astonished to read how many goals they conceded and scored in a year :D .

[aloisius]

Hmm I just find it surprising that Bundesliga teams concede so many goals, if there is a correlation to overall quality... I guess it's one for the statistic freaks.




A claim could be made that it proves the higher quality of non-elite teams in Germany. But it’s a too small sample to claim anything.

[Alex_K]

What aloisius said. This guy rules, btw.

[wolfsburgh]

Agree with the following, which has been said a couple times: the top teams in Germany might allow more goals because the the competition is closer. It stands to reason that if the top teams have more quality games (say hypothetically speaking, the BL goes 12 teams deep, while the EPL may go 9 teams deep, while Serie A may go 6 teams deep, while the Spanish league may go 5 teams deep, while the Dutch League may go 3 teams deep), they are more likely to concede more goals.

Also, this has been a weird, very competitive year in the BL, so a half-season sample proves next to nothing.

[Gregoriak]

Looking at this historically, one cannot say that there is a definite correlation between league strenght and goals scored. Look at the Bundesliga of the late-70s/early-80s. Three Bundesliga clubs reached the UEFA-Cup semi final in 78/79, with Gladbach reaching the final and beating Red Star Belgrade. Fortuna Düsseldorf reached the ECII final (losing 3-4 to Barca) and Cologne reached the ECI semi final (losing 3-4 to Nottingham on aggregate). A year later, the UEFA-Cup semi final was all Bundesliga with four teams (needless to say, the final was all Bundesliga as well). Hamburg also reached the ECI final (unluckily losing 0-1 to Nottingham).

Then the German NT also won the Euro 1980 (plus being unbeaten for almost three years, 1978 to 1981). It could be said the BL was the strongest league in Europe in those years.

If you now look at the number of goals scored, the Bundesliga far outscored the English or Italian leagues (as it already did throughout the 70s). This illustrates that a higher goal scoring average does not automatically equal "crap" league. The Bundesliga of the 70s had many great defenders in Vogts, Beckenbauer, Höttges, Schulz, Schwarzenbeck, Rüssmann, Breitner, Bonhof, Kaltz, Förster and so on. Yet its goal average was always something between 3.0 and 3.5 goals per game. This is not necessarily due to crap defenders, as you see.

At the same time, a unquestionably crap league like for example Cyprus or Malta usually has a higher scoring average than quality leagues. Surely this is more than anything else due to crap defending.

So one can not draw definite conclusions from the numbers of goals scored in a league.

[Gregoriak]

Hmm I just find it surprising that Bundesliga teams concede so many goals, if there is a correlation to overall quality... I guess it's one for the statistic freaks.

By the way eventhough off topic, there is a nice read at soccernet (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=317981&cc=5739) on Tasmania Berlin, the worst team in the history of the Bundesliga. I was astonished to read how many goals they conceded and scored in a year :D .

Tasmania is a special case in Bundesliga history.

The German FA ruled in 1965 that the amount of Bundesliga teams would be increased from 16 to 18 (this was ruled only two weeks before the start of the new season!), which meant that the two relegated teams of the 64/65 season would stay in the first division (Schalke 04 and Karlsruher SC), despite having finished at the bottom of the table. During the same year, the German FA ruled that Hertha BSC Berlin had to be relegated due to financial difficulties (since there was no second Bundesliga, only regional leagues, it had to go back to the Berlin regional league, which was pretty crap).

But out of political reasons, the German FA decided that there had to be at least one club from Berlin playing in the West German Bundesliga (to underline that West Berlin was part of West Germany). Thus it was decided to lift the "best" club from the Berlin regional league into the Bundesliga, which was Tasmania. Tasmania would have never managed to get into the first Division in the regular way, because it was simply too weak a team. And all this two weeks before the start of the new season! Tasmania had planned to play in the Berlin regional league and its roster of players was meant to fit the needs of that weak league, not the Bundesliga. Although Tasmania was overjoyed to suddenly be able to play first league football, it soon showed that they had no place in the Bundesliga, because they were a second or even third rate team at best.

Tasmania never was a "real" first division side, it was more like a third division side that suddenly had to play in the first division, which explains why they did so badly in the 65/66 season.

[picaraza]

Now I do understand that lower table clubs concede far more goals than the elite but what does this say about German clubs competing in Europe?


The only thing you need to know about German clubs competing in Europe:

** All three of the eligible Bundesliga teams (Bayern, Bayer Leverkusen, and Werder Bremen) are set to advance to the next round of Champions League.
England stands to lose Liverpool. La Liga to lose Valencia,Deportivo La Coruña, and Real Madrid :). Serie A to lose Roma. Only France stands to see their three teams advance.

** Schalke and Stuttgart are looking like contenders for the Uefa Cup.

[Gregoriak]

Here`s how Tasmania performed in the 1965-66 season:

Date-Score-Home/Away-Opponent-Spectators
14-08-65 2-0 H Karlsruher SC, 81.000
21-08-65 0-5 A Borussia Mönchengladbach, 33.000
28-08-65 0-2 H Borussia Dortmund, 70.000
04-09-65 1-5 A Hamburger SV, 25.000
11-09-65 0-2 H Bayern Munich, 40.000
18-09-65 2-7 A 1. FC Nuremberg, 14.000
02-10-65 1-5 H Hannover 96, 25.000
16-10-65 0-0 A 1. FC Kaiserslautern, 15.000
20-10-65 0-2 H VfB Stuttgart, 15.000
23-10-65 0-3 A Meidericher SV Duisburg, 12.000
30-10-65 0-6 H 1. FC Cologne, 20.000
06-11-65 0-5 A Werder Bremen, 12.000
13-11-65 0-5 H TSV 1860 Munich, 10.000
27-11-65 0-4 A Eintracht Frankfurt, 8.000
11-12-65 1-3 A Borussia Neunkirchen, 15.000
18-12-65 1-2 H Schalke 04, 4.000
31-12-65 0-2 H Eintracht Brunswick, 3.000
08-01-66 0-3 A Karlsruher SC, 25.000
15-01-66 0-0 H Borussia Mönchengladbach, 1.000
30-01-66 1-3 A Borussia Dortmund, 12.000
05-02-66 0-4 H Hamburger SV, 8.000
12-02-66 1-2 A Bayern Munich, 18.000
26-02-66 0-1 H 1. FC Nuremberg, 4.000
05-03-66 0-5 A Hannover 96, 12.000
12-03-66 1-1 H 1. FC Kaiserslautern, 3.000
19-03-66 0-2 A VfB Stuttgart, 10.000
26-03-66 0-9 H Meidericher SV Duisburg, 1.500
02-04-66 0-4 A 1. FC Cologne, 8.000
09-04-66 1-1 H Werder Bremen, 1.200
23-04-66 0-4 A TSV 1860 Munich, 22.000
30-04-66 0-3 H Eintracht Frankfurt, 4.000
14-05-66 1-3 A Eintracht Brunswick, 6.000
21-05-66 2-1 H Borussia Neunkirchen, 2.000
28-05-66 0-4 A Schalke 04. 8.000

2 wins, 4 draws, 28 defeats
8-60 points, 15:108 goals

[BMGuy]

Why don't you tell us.

I already have my own assumption and that is Bundesliga defenders overall are crap.

If you look at all german teams in the uefa competition this season, they've also scored a lot more than they've conceded. So cannot say bundesliga defenders are crap :cool:

[Tai Ga Wutz]

Here`s how Tasmania performed in the 1965-66 season:

Date-Score-Home/Away-Opponent-Spectators
14-08-65 2-0 H Karlsruher SC, 81.000
21-08-65 0-5 A Borussia Mönchengladbach, 33.000
28-08-65 0-2 H Borussia Dortmund, 70.000
04-09-65 1-5 A Hamburger SV, 25.000
11-09-65 0-2 H Bayern Munich, 40.000
18-09-65 2-7 A 1. FC Nuremberg, 14.000
02-10-65 1-5 H Hannover 96, 25.000
16-10-65 0-0 A 1. FC Kaiserslautern, 15.000
20-10-65 0-2 H VfB Stuttgart, 15.000
23-10-65 0-3 A Meidericher SV Duisburg, 12.000
30-10-65 0-6 H 1. FC Cologne, 20.000
06-11-65 0-5 A Werder Bremen, 12.000
13-11-65 0-5 H TSV 1860 Munich, 10.000
27-11-65 0-4 A Eintracht Frankfurt, 8.000
11-12-65 1-3 A Borussia Neunkirchen, 15.000
18-12-65 1-2 H Schalke 04, 4.000
31-12-65 0-2 H Eintracht Brunswick, 3.000
08-01-66 0-3 A Karlsruher SC, 25.000
15-01-66 0-0 H Borussia Mönchengladbach, 1.000
30-01-66 1-3 A Borussia Dortmund, 12.000
05-02-66 0-4 H Hamburger SV, 8.000
12-02-66 1-2 A Bayern Munich, 18.000
26-02-66 0-1 H 1. FC Nuremberg, 4.000
05-03-66 0-5 A Hannover 96, 12.000
12-03-66 1-1 H 1. FC Kaiserslautern, 3.000
19-03-66 0-2 A VfB Stuttgart, 10.000
26-03-66 0-9 H Meidericher SV Duisburg, 1.500
02-04-66 0-4 A 1. FC Cologne, 8.000
09-04-66 1-1 H Werder Bremen, 1.200
23-04-66 0-4 A TSV 1860 Munich, 22.000
30-04-66 0-3 H Eintracht Frankfurt, 4.000
14-05-66 1-3 A Eintracht Brunswick, 6.000
21-05-66 2-1 H Borussia Neunkirchen, 2.000
28-05-66 0-4 A Schalke 04. 8.000

2 wins, 4 draws, 28 defeats
8-60 points, 15:108 goals

Amazing how the number of spectators at home developed, i.e. collapsed. Graph looked like a parabola.