Stadiums Rumors...

[stucknutah]

A bit of an update from a well-placed source (who has threatened me with death/dismemberment/firing if too much information is disclosed)...

Murray City: the deal is supposedly on the table. Not much new over what we have heard. Land is owned by Murray. Not sure how much other $$ they can put on the table.

SLC: things are interesting. A Delta Center type deal is possible (city purchases the land and is responsible for infrastructure; owners pay for the building itself). Problems: regarding the possible sites...SLC does not own them yet. Additionally, Checketts and crew are asking for more than just a Delta Center deal. Also looking for $$ to offset some of the building costs. After Frisco (only $10 mil out of pocket for Hunt) and Bridgeview (city chose to take on all the costs) you can see why they are asking.

At this point, there is something we can do to help the process. Supposedly Rocky (the SLC mayor for those of you from out of state) is backing this project hard-core. He claims that the stadium will create revenue and add restaurants, etc. to downtown...helping it become more of a destination.

However, critics are pointing out that the Delta Center really has not done much for downtown re restaurants / shopping (Gateway would have gone to that location anyway...cheap rr land that needed to be upgraded eventually / rda $$) and Franklin Covey has done absolutely nothing to upgrade its neighborhood. The only success story that Rocky can point to would have to be the E-Center, around which there has been mucho development. However, as my wife pointed out, the area near the E-Center, on the west side of the valley, was relatively underdeveloped despite the population shift away from downtown. It could be argued that the restaurants / shopping in that area would have developed anyway.

So, I would like everyone's take regarding potential for development / increased tax revenues at the following locations:
1) Murray at I15 and 45th South
2) SLC downtown at Holding's property next to the Courthouse
3) SLC downtown on the West side of Gateway

For the SLC options, please explain why you think SLC taxpayers would be willing to spend $$ for bonding to support the stadium.

Thanks

[Deuce]

So, I would like everyone's take regarding potential for development / increased tax revenues at the following locations:
1) Murray at I15 and 45th South
2) SLC downtown at Holding's property next to the Courthouse
3) SLC downtown on the West side of Gateway

For the SLC options, please explain why you think SLC taxpayers would be willing to spend $$ for bonding to support the stadium.

ThanksInitially I can see the cost effectiveness in building a stadium in an area that has an infrastructure already in place, but is the cost of upgrading the infrastructure in a run down/urban strife area as feasible as developing in a rural area of the valley and building infrastructure to suit the site?

Drawbacks I see are;
The 45th south area is a bottle neck area. It is newly upgraded and still sorely inadequate in the race to meet demand. Although they can promote easy access to I-15, this may depend entirely on your definition of "easy access"

West side of the gateway? Have they addressed the growing homeless/vagrant/panhandling population in the area around the Gateway. most notably but not exclusively the homeless shelter half a block south of the Gateway. I was unaware of the homeless shelter and the seedier element in the area. My Gf and I were soundly harrassed walking through there going from the Gateway to that restaurant in the old Rio Grande Building. I left there with a bad impression. I feel the homeless/vagrant/panhandling population would be a huge turn off to visiting fans and families. It must be addressed before the stadium is built.

If I had to choose from your list: I like the Second Suggestion cos it is across the street from where I work and I get free parking.

As far as tax revenue I think any of the suggested areas would benefit from the stadium and I feel each area will mount a fight to home the stadium in their precinct.

[SoccerPrime]

Is #2 the land where SLC is fighting the Aquarium builders for the land?

[Deuce]

IMO the area in the South-West Salt Lake Valley (West Jordan Area) would be ideal.
It is a vibrant area that is growing in leaps and bounds. It also offers new, modern infrastructure, TRAX is planning an expansion line out through West Jordan.
Therefore "easy access" to light rail, Bangerter Highway and I-215.

It is somewhat rural with wide expansive areas begging for development

[Lizzie Bee]

I think all of the options sound great. I would be excited about any of them, so selfishishness would be my only motive for stating one over another.

My official vote is: go with whichever deal will be most substantially in favor of RSL (i.e., whoever is willing to help bankroll and make this project a success in other ways.)

[mls2atl]

congrats guys! checketts is the man! you havent even played a single game and you guys are close having a complete stadium plan in place. congrats again

[jfranz]

The Courthouse option is the most attractive, if it can be done. It would be the first "urban"/downtown stadium in the league. Plus, if the goal is to spur development, the Murray and Gateway locations are already developed/developing/beyond-hope. The area around the Courthouse, on the other hand, particularly to the Southwest and West, could really use the boost. It would also be in close proximity to the Pierpont area of downtown - bars, clubs and resturants.

Plus, come on. It would be literally across the street from a Trax stop. A stop called "The Courthouse." And suddenly, you have a built in nickname for your stadium - superior even to the Jamacian National Team's "Office."

A "royal" team and it's place of judgement.

How could this not be the favored location.

[Deuce]

If I had to choose from your list: I like the Second Suggestion cos it is across the street from where I work and I get free parking.

Plus, come on. It would be literally across the street from a Trax stop. A stop called "The Courthouse." And suddenly, you have a built in nickname for your stadium - superior even to the Jamacian National Team's "Office."

A "royal" team and it's place of judgement.

How could this not be the favored location.I think I will add this to my list of selfish reasons ;)
I want the stadium there!

Forget my West Jordan suggestion this is way too cool to not get behind it!

[stucknutah]

The Courthouse option is the most attractive, if it can be done. It would be the first "urban"/downtown stadium in the league. Plus, if the goal is to spur development, the Murray and Gateway locations are already developed/developing/beyond-hope. The area around the Courthouse, on the other hand, particularly to the Southwest and West, could really use the boost. It would also be in close proximity to the Pierpont area of downtown - bars, clubs and resturants.

Plus, come on. It would be literally across the street from a Trax stop. A stop called "The Courthouse." And suddenly, you have a built in nickname for your stadium - superior even to the Jamacian National Team's "Office."

A "royal" team and it's place of judgement.

How could this not be the favored location.

Because SLC does not own the land yet. Earl Holding has made some very good coin holding on to his properties for years/decades.

I appreciate everyone's enthusiasm, however, I'm still looking for commentary regarding what will be the SLC counsel's chief concern: that this stadium will encourage commercial growth in downtown. The Delta Center did not...Franklin Covey failed miserably in its neighborhood...E-Center did well. If the counsel is not convinced, no big money...

[okcomputer]

thats amazing. My team the metrostars have been around 9 years and we still dont have a stadium. You guys havent even played a game yet and you already have a stadium. Congratulations. I'll go off and drown in my misery.

[Deuce]

Because SLC does not own the land yet. Earl Holding has made some very good coin holding on to his properties for years/decades.

I appreciate everyone's enthusiasm, however, I'm still looking for commentary regarding what will be the SLC counsel's chief concern: that this stadium will encourage commercial growth in downtown. The Delta Center did not...Franklin Covey failed miserably in its neighborhood...E-Center did well. If the counsel is not convinced, no big money...Well I thought I answered your question in my first reply. I suggested that each city/precinct will mount a fight to home the stadium.

What are your references suggesting that Delta Center did not stimulate growth.

Just from my memory, I can recall the area around the Delta Center and Gateway were basically 'no go' areas... unless you were looking for a prostitute, drugs or a quick way to meet an abrupt end to your way of life.

Now I would say that what exists there now, excluding the one block area between the Gateway and the Rio Grande building, has vastly improved, not only in the urban renewal arena but in the clientele(no pun intended) that frequent the area. I would say that it has succeeded in re-claiming an area of the city that had declined into a decaying cesspool.

I am unfamiliar with the Franklin Covey discussion. However, I do know the ball park is alot nicer now than it was when the Gulls and Trappers played in it.

I know that Wally-World just opened up down the street from FC Field... and if you ask me that is the sign that the area will decline not the fact that the field was there and could only draw a Maverik, 7-eleven and a Wal-Mart.

Using another town in the Valley as an example the Sandy City council have voted in favor of that type of store, and have gambled there future on them.
So by there standards as long as they get a wal-mart to go with it, it is a successful undertaking

E-Center area was a growing area before the E-Center was built, which I believe was your staance anyway. so that is an invalid association...

I hope this does not come across as an incoherent ramble.

:cool:

[jfranz]

I'm still looking for commentary regarding what will be the city counsel's chief concern: that this stadium will encourage commercial growth in downtown.

Well, first of all, the Murray City council seems to assume that the stadium will encourage commercial growth. Hence their bid. While the situation is a bit different, the SLC council should assume no less. The stadium is going to be built (or so it certainly seems), and, maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't it generate more economic growth than an empty lot? I know that SLC doesn't own the land, so they need justification to buy it from big Earl. But if Murray assumes it can encourage economic development, why doesn't SLC?

And is it really genuine to say that The Gateway would have been built even if the Delta Center had not? The Delta Center had at least something to to with development in that area, if only because it directed the course of light rail downtown. It certainly made the "inevitable" construction of Gateway more attractive and increased the value of the project.

The Courthouse option is attractive because the surrounding area could use the attention and it isn't a part of downtown that has become fully blighted yet. It isn't the kind of place that suburbanites are afraid to wander - like, say, west of Gateway. You also avoid the concerns of neighboring residential communities west of Gateway (and within Gateway, for that matter) that would, at the very least, be afflicted by construction and an increase in traffic. The Courthouse area is fully commercial. It is also an area just west of City Hall, the site of festivals and events throught the year. The stadium could become part of these plans.

And, like I said, come on, it's "The Courthouse."

[Deuce]

Sorry I forgot to mention...
the answer to the City not owning the land to develop... Just ask Larry H. Miller how he got the Delta Center Land from its owner.

I will tell you... I recall that the Salt Lake City Counsil condemned the land because the owner would not sell or was holding the land for a better price.

They (SLCC) condemned it and Larry H. Miller got the land for pennies on the dollar of the asking price.

So don't worry about the land... if the City wants it the city will get it!

[stucknutah]

snip...
I hope this does not come across as an incoherent ramble.


This is BigSoccer...incoherent rambling is both tolerated and encouraged. :p

[Arelius]

Tonight the ABC News show “Nightline” will air an episode that might be of interest to all of you. It has to do with:

Building new sports stadiums. Is it fair to put the burden on taxpayers?

There's a raging dispute about how to fund huge new sports stadiums in cities around the country. The question: should public money be used because they are an economic boom, or is this simply a taxpayer rip-off?

Arlington, Texas voted on Election Day to put more than $300 million into a new stadium for the Dallas Cowboys. Tomorrow, the Washington, D.C. City Council votes on public funding for a new stadium for the city's new major league team, The Washington Nationals. San Francisco is being asked to build a new stadium for the 49ers. Correspondent Jake Tapper reports.

Our guests: Jerry Jones, owner of the Dallas Cowboys; Gavin Newsom, Mayor of San Francisco; and Kevin Delaney, associate professor of sociology at Temple University and author of Public Dollars, Private Stadiums

[blitzzfan]

A couple of weeks ago most of the buildings on the "Courthouse" site were torn down.

As for development around the area it's not as "blighted" as nearby blocks. Obviously the State Courthouse and City Hall to the east are suitable. To the north is Port-o-Call and a row of operating businesses. To the west are the dance club, a printing shop, and car wash (iirc). It's to the south where the Little America and Grand America (Holdings inc.) sits.

So, does the council want tax rich restaurants to buy out some existing business and set up shop?

Rocky/SLC wants to draw people. Sitting on 5th South, one of the main downtown exits, would make it as visible as any place in Utah.

[Rockey J Squirrel]

Rockey the Mayor hsa SLC on the brain, not the devlopment of the Wasatch Front! People (Family type)have quit living in Salt Lake years ago. When the SLC Commisioners of the 40's to the 80's let the farm communities and industial suburbs annex the whole county around them it sunk Downtown. SLC's future is repacement of the die off home owners with value enhancing new owners (not happening) and high rise housing which attracts the new nester and the empty nesters. The Political Will to doze whole blocks of habitable housing to enable regentrification is not there either. The Marble office on East South Temple is doing more than the Sandstone one on 4th South to develope Downtown. Rockey and his old buddies at ACLU killed (hopefully to be resurected soon) the Legacy Highway for "Envionmental" reasons, but look at the map! The Legacy and the West Side highway routings as currently envisioned will help commerce move from North and South weather its Arisona to Idaho or Davis County to Utah County. But the "Hub Businesses" and the people who live and work there served by the freeways are not and will increasingly not be residents of Salt lake City. Legacy is a SLC killer and Hizzoner knows it.
What is wrong with his Downtown Stadium?
1) Local desire/desperation vrs Regional Benifit.
2) Cost of land: Because of proximity to like high rise office space nearby land is expensive and may be more valuable tax wise (and best use) in other uses. Is a $5 million to $10 Million land premium going to pay off for the teams useage and finacial return?
3) 10 acre city blocks may be big by Eastern and European standards but still small for a Stadium. The mimimum footprint for a stadium is 4 acres. The security/surveilance zone arround the structure will eat up 2 to 4 acres. Staff, Player, bus, Media and VIP parking will take the rest, leaving little space for the required greenspace landscaping.
4) Where will you find 5000 parking places (the 4:1 ratio for "suburban") or 2000 (the 10 to 1 ratio for "Urban"areas with parking available)? [NOTE: This kind of standard was required of all sites when the Blitzz looked for stadium land. Now if Rockey has ideas of changing the rules he has an opponent.]
5) Practice areas must be at a separate place! This costs money and time. If a $2 million payroll of players and staff are spending 2 hours a day in travel and setup/takedown time that could be spent in useful activities, it is a poor value return for the team.
6) Hiz Pub-Crawlness "vision" for Downtown is for more "lively" bars and such. Maybe he considers a stadium a really big "Party House". Absolutely the wrong idea for Utah family values and totally missing the demographics of the people who attend pro soccer in Utah.
I have been to the games and looked at who was there and seen the non-profit beer sales at Freezz games.
7) If there is adequete land (20 to 100 acres) available cheep Downtown, why hasn't Boyer or Wall-Mart grabbed it? Maybe it is low valued for a reason, and that turns away developers.
8) TRAX would benifit more from a suburban site with lots of parking around the stadium availabe for the worker/student/shopper who lives off the line and will take the train if there is parking close to home and at the Station. The same for all Sports Fans who want to get to a game without the nearby parking problems. FUTURE AD: "Park at ReAL Stadium for Ute Football or Jazz games and ride TRAX".
9) Big fireworks shows won't go at a crowded Downtown site.
10) The best interests of the team should be utmost! Comprimising principle and sound stadium siteing for a dubius value "downtownism" is not tin the best interest of ReAL Salt Lake!

[nyrmetros]

thats amazing. My team the metrostars have been around 9 years and we still dont have a stadium. You guys havent even played a game yet and you already have a stadium. Congratulations. I'll go off and drown in my misery.
wait for me !

[Blitzz Boy]

Lots of us Family Types live (or in my case, used to live) in Rose Park. I loved it there & I wish I had never left.

OK & Metros, don't stress!

We have some advantages that you don't. Unless we tear down the Stein Eriksen Lodge & build our stadium there, land here costs a lot less than it does where you live.

Maybe this thread has some tips that might lead to your own place?

In 1991, I spent 3 months in Carteret. People make fun of New Jersey, but I thought that parts of it were very pretty. But, let's be honest, parts of it did need a little redevelopment.

I think that there's some kind of "Brownfields" program to redevelop abandoned industrial sites? Maybe RSL will set a precedent that helps the Metros work something out?

If it works out, you owe me a beer and a linguiça. (That's the yummy Portuguese sausage I had there back in '91, right?)

[Fuegofan]

I think that there's some kind of "Brownfields" program to redevelop abandoned industrial sites? Maybe RSL will set a precedent that helps the Metros work something out?

I ran this one by the Fire here in Chicago. The team felt that the possible financial drain of a brownfield was too great a risk to take on. Plus, in my research, I never did find one that was in the right location where I could make a good pitch for it.

I hope you do push for an environmentally friendly stadium there. When you do, make sure you figure out the economic advantages versus disadvantages before making the pitch. Environmentally friendly building makes more sense long term, but the trick is to make it better short term as well. Two ideas:

1) I suspect that water collection should be an issue, because I have a feeling that y'all may not have as much water as you need. Fields are thirsty. Collect rainwater in cisterns, then water the field with it. Not expensive. Route to take: find someone who sells this stuff. Find out how much it would cost to implement the system. Then find out how much the water district charges for the same amount of water. Find out if the reclamation district will cut you a deal because you are collecting stormwater instead of letting it runoff. This benefits the reclamation district because they won't have to treat the water. Over 10+ acres, this is a lot of water they won't have to treat.

2) Geothermal. It helps regulate heating and cooling in the buildings (offices, locker rooms, etc). It also can be coiled under the field. If you need to heat the field because of snow, or if your grass becomes dormant because of winter and you need to wake it up, bringing the ground temperature up to 55 degrees (the approximate temperature of the ground below the frost line) by using geothermal is a lot cheaper than electric coils.


I hope that the stadium gets built downtown. Why? Because I believe that downtowns should be thriving centers of life. Great cities have way more to do in them on any given day than anyone could possibly do. Better yet, it's all concentrated in one spot. Will a soccer stadium be a huge revitilizing agent? No, but it's a symbol, and it will help. It's a symbol of success, of first rank, of wealth. People are attracted to that, and just its presence will help in the revitilization. I think that people like a whole day off, and that going to a game can be part of a family's full day. But a day doesn't begin at 6:00 p.m. A lot of people like getting somewhere, seeing a few things, doing a few things, going to a favorite restaurant, and then going to the game in the evening. The larger the family, the more limited, energy-wise and monetary-wise, they'll be in being able to make a full day of a game. But having a stadium downtown gives the opportunity for both the whole-day-trippers and the just-for-the-game folks to attend. I argue against stadiums in the suburbs because it excludes some of those who would like to make a whole day of it. And remember, while the majority of people will likely come from SLC and suburbs, a lot of people will be making the trip from far enough away that making a whole day of it in the city may make sense. As a town with people regularly coming from abroad to visit, having the stadium downtown just makes it a lot easier for them to come to the stadium. Finally, for those of us who may be coming in for away games, and for teams with their entourages coming in for games, we all want to stay as close as possible to the stadium, so that's a lot of hotel nights that get added for wherever the stadium is.