Football Manager, Part I

[JohnR]

Question for the more experienced FM/WWSM managers out there.

I've read quite a bit on the last three or four pages of this thread about player ratings in the 8-10 area consistently. Is that the case just because these are top clubs and top players - or should you expect to see that even in the lower leagues if you're playing well?

I'm currently in the German Regionsaliga - it's mid April and I'm top of the table, so I'm doing well - but it's still a treat to see more than one player finish with an 8. I've had one 10 on the season (a hat-trick from a forward) and less than a handfull of 9s. My player in best form is averaging about a 7.8, and I just got a note that he is in contention for league player of the year. I've been pretty pleased with the general performance of my boys so far - but hearing about consistent high numbers has me wondering.

I can't vouch for FM (I have it but haven't played much), but your experience is about right for CM.

Overall, you'll get roughly the same ratings distribution in the lower leagues as the higher league. And a 7.8 average rating is a damn good rating. My team's Player of the Year last year was a forward who averaged 7.6, and the team won the EPL.

The highest rating I've ever had for an entire season has been about 8.0. We're probably talking about 80 seasons (!).

And no, during that 80 seasons, not a single player in my squad or the opponents' has ever scored on an overhead kick, or a bicycle. The poor fools keep trying, though.

[TheImposter]

I can't vouch for FM (I have it but haven't played much), but your experience is about right for CM.

Overall, you'll get roughly the same ratings distribution in the lower leagues as the higher league. And a 7.8 average rating is a damn good rating. My team's Player of the Year last year was a forward who averaged 7.6, and the team won the EPL.

The highest rating I've ever had for an entire season has been about 8.0. We're probably talking about 80 seasons (!).

And no, during that 80 seasons, not a single player in my squad or the opponents' has ever scored on an overhead kick, or a bicycle. The poor fools keep trying, though.
This is also consistent with my experience in CM4 and about 10 seasons in FM2005. I get the occasional 10, when someone has really "had a stormer", but normally 8s are real good.

I got bored with the game I was playing (MK Dons to Nottingham Forest to Liverpool) and decided to play a real LLM game, more or less "by the rules" as stipulated in the LLM forum on the SI website. I used the random team generator on the site and ended up with Badalona in the Spanish second division B3. I didn't bother to change the default start date on the game, so I walked into the club the day before the first preseason friendly. Amazingly, I have a transfer budget of $150K, which really surprised me. But the club's wage bill is about 12.3K per week, when it's budgeted at 9K -- and 7.4K of the total each week goes to 1 player, a 32 year-old has-been striker whose contract is up in a year. I figured I'd sell him and open up all kinds of room to sign players, but when I changed his status from "Key Player" to "First Team" and listed a price on his transfer screen (without actually transfer listing him) he got unhappy -- that prompted me to look at his history, and I found out the club had only signed him just before I took over! Since turning around and selling him wouldn't be very realistic I'll stick it out to the end of his contract, hope I can avoid relegation, and hope I get a similar transfer kitty next year when there's more room in the wage bill. The squad is very thin in midfield and defense, and top heavy with strikers that have horrible stats. Some of the more promising looking players are listed for loan, even though it looks to me like we need every warm body we can get. Have had a heap of trouble getting players to accept loans to me, even from other 2nd division clubs, but got one defender and signed a 37 year-old winger with stats way above my level as a player/assistant manager. Finished the friendly schedule the club had set up before I took over and now it's 3 weeks until the first league match! Here goes!

[br13]

It is top players getting them, I'm playing with Barca and in a win I can expect one 9 and see 10s often. I haven't played with lower teams in this version, but in past versions I didn't see a lot of 8's with teams like Barnet. I think the top talent gets the 10s.I can't vouch for FM (I have it but haven't played much), but your experience is about right for CM.

Overall, you'll get roughly the same ratings distribution in the lower leagues as the higher league. And a 7.8 average rating is a damn good rating. My team's Player of the Year last year was a forward who averaged 7.6, and the team won the EPL.

The highest rating I've ever had for an entire season has been about 8.0. We're probably talking about 80 seasons (!).Thanks to you both for the insight.

[JohnR]

But the club's wage bill is about 12.3K per week, when it's budgeted at 9K -- and 7.4K of the total each week goes to 1 player, a 32 year-old has-been striker whose contract is up in a year.

I really love this game!

(I am probably the world's #1 fan, which is ironic in that the single worst customer-relations experience I have ever had is with, yup, SI. I guess they figure that if they make a great game, they don't have to be civil.)

I love all aspects of the cycle. I like being dirt poor & abused, as you currently are. I like the uptick, when for the first time you have a few pennies to buy somebody. I like the excitement over the first promotion. The realization that somebody decent might actually agree to join your club. The stadium expansion. The first time one of my players participates in an international game. The big $$ player sale. And on and on and on.

I inevitably play a Conference side, work my way up to glory in the Premiership, win everything that can be won except for Champion's League (made it to finals once, lost on a golden goal), get sated on success, pick another Conference side again.

Like the 4 seasons. Gotta have winter along with summer, spring, and fall.

[TheImposter]

I really love this game!
Sure beats hell out of shooting aliens!

[br13]

I like the excitement over the first promotion.
Finished my first full season this weekend. Won the German Regionsaliga North with St. Pauli, so I'm promoted to 2.Bundesliga.

My left winger won league player of the year, and my central midfielder was second. It was a very successful season all in all. I had two transfers in that played very key roles, which made me happy as well.

I didn't get the transfer kitty I was expecting after the promotion, only 260k (about 100k less than last year) - but I've brought in about 12 players total to this point (I'm just at the beginning of August). I'm expecting a very difficult season, trying to stay up. My guess is that I will be very weak scoring goals - but I've got about 110k left, so I may can strengthen come January. Bookies and the board are expecting relegation - so I hope to provide some surprises.

[subbuteo]

How long does it take for the database to save? Takes forever for me.

Do you have to save the database after every player you change?
No, I didn't have to save after each change I made. I would sometimes move onto a different screen and then go back and see if my changes were still there and they were, so just one save is all I did.

I don't recall how long it took...but whatever it was it was worth the wait.

[panicfc]

Good to know Subby. I'm going to mess around with it again today or tomorrow.

[JohnR]

Chelsea, watch out!

Have just watched my 12 point Christmas lead in EPL (!) dwindle to 2 points by mid February. The attack of the dreaded superkeeper. Check out the opposing keeper's stats for the past 8 games -

8
9
8
8
9
8
9
8


Naturally, this streak occurs as my 4-time EPL keeper of the year falls into a mysterious slump, recording 6s and even a 5.

I love how SI denies that it fiddles with keepers as a way of achieving play balance. Sure, fellas. When they're not playing me, the opposing keepers achieve an 8 or better rating about 1 game in 5 (with an average rating of 7.0). With those odds, you know how often you'll see such a pattern? About once in 40,000 8-game strings, that's how often.

Unless a human is the opponent. :(

[Cannon]

I love how SI denies that it fiddles with keepers as a way of achieving play balance. Sure, fellas. When they're not playing me, the opposing keepers achieve an 8 or better rating about 1 game in 5 (with an average rating of 7.0). With those odds, you know how often you'll see such a pattern? About once in 40,000 8-game strings, that's how often.

Unless a human is the opponent. :(

Yeah, I agree that the game sure appears to treat humans different than AI. I don't think that SI is lying. After spending way too much time talking to their testers and the programmers, I've come to the conclusion that they just have a fairly naive testing program that is not particularly well suited to tracking down these sort of issues.

Read the forums on their website and you'll find serious problems with their testing methods when they bother to explain the methodology. They use holiday games to test for things that only will show up in a human controlled game. One of their head programmers even argued that just running the test with AI was sufficient since "they have the same range of tactical option available to them as humans do". :rolleyes: I'm betting this explains the large number of bugs that the CM/FM games always have when shipped. Oh well, they're just lucky that the genre isn't exactly overflowing with serious competitors.

[JohnR]

I don't think that SI is lying.

So .... an accidental superkeeper?

Wish I could get one of those. When your keeper stops 95% of shots and the opposing keeper stops 75%, the rest of the squad doesn't have to be real good. :)

[subbuteo]

Chelsea, watch out!

Have just watched my 12 point Christmas lead in EPL (!) dwindle to 2 points by mid February. The attack of the dreaded superkeeper. Check out the opposing keeper's stats for the past 8 games -

8
9
8
8
9
8
9
8


Naturally, this streak occurs as my 4-time EPL keeper of the year falls into a mysterious slump, recording 6s and even a 5.

I love how SI denies that it fiddles with keepers as a way of achieving play balance. Sure, fellas. When they're not playing me, the opposing keepers achieve an 8 or better rating about 1 game in 5 (with an average rating of 7.0). With those odds, you know how often you'll see such a pattern? About once in 40,000 8-game strings, that's how often.

Unless a human is the opponent. :(

Interesting about the goalkeeping. My Chelsea hit a mini-slump recently, too, but probably because I've been using the same tactic the entire time and the AI may be figuring it out.
Arsenal are 5 points back with 8 rounds to go (it's March 23rd). I had some dips in form around xmas and in February including consecutive draws with Portsmouth and Norwich (14th & 16th respectively), but have now run off 4 straight wins all comps including the League Cup final over Aston Villa. My remaining Prem schedule isn't as tough so barring any major injuries I should be able to fend off the Gunners.

[JohnR]

My Chelsea hit a mini-slump recently, too, but probably because I've been using the same tactic the entire time and the AI may be figuring it out.

How is it figuring it out? Through improved field play, or through a superkeeper? In other words, why are you slumping?

I switched tactics and the keeper thing is (mostly but not entirely) solved. However, occasionally SI still does give me a taste of "that special hell we have reserved for humans." For example, my EPL-leading side drew 3-3 with Division 2 Burnley in a FA Cup match, although I played my first teamers and I played to win. Why? 2 goals called back, 2 red cards, and Burnley scored 3 goals on 4 shots against my EPL Goalkeeper of the Year.

At least I beat the bastards in the replay. Now onto Juve in the Champion's League quarters. I know what will happen. My keeper will freeze under the pressure of playing in the road and concede 3 goals by halftime, at which time his rating will be 5. Goodbye CL dreams. Watch and see. I'll report on this tomorrow.

[subbuteo]

I'm managing two teams and use the same tactic for both of them. Just a hunch that maybe the AI is starting to get it.

Another thing may be the fatigue from the loaded fixture list, and constant lineup shuffling to try to get fresh players in for all the matches could mess with team chemistry on the pitch.

In any case, it makes for more of a challenge and probably more realism, too! Except the real Chelsea is still on target for a quadruple, whereas mine can do no better than a treble. Go figure!

[JohnR]

In any case, it makes for more of a challenge and probably more realism, too!

The fatigue and injury thing make the game interesting. Otherwise, it would be too static -- find 11 strong players and play 'em.

Injury is very well modeled, I think. However, fatigue is a bit of a joke. Chelsea in real life plays its core starters far more than I could do as manager of Chelsea in Champ/Football Manager. Chelsea has no problem playing Lampard Saturday/Wednesday/Saturday, running hard and pressing, without being subbed. Try doing that in CF Manager, especially in winter with wet fields. In CF Manager, you need to buy two Lampards, or accept that you will struggle at times due to a lack of squad depth.

[Cannon]

I'm managing two teams and use the same tactic for both of them. Just a hunch that maybe the AI is starting to get it.

Another thing may be the fatigue from the loaded fixture list, and constant lineup shuffling to try to get fresh players in for all the matches could mess with team chemistry on the pitch.

SI Games has totally debunked the "AI broke my tactic" claims. They've always said that there is no code for the AI to "figure out your tactic". About the closest thing to that is that the AI will eventually use user made tactics against you.

On the other hand, testers have reported that their is a hidden "gel" factor that tracks the team's makeup in terms of players and tactics. Thus you certainly suffer a performance hit for too much player rotation and major tactic changes.

[JohnR]

SI Games has totally debunked the "AI broke my tactic" claims.

They also debunked the notion of a superkeeper, yet the actual statistics strongly suggest otherwise. See a few posts earlier. I am not a big believer in 1 in 40,000 events occurring at random, particularly when they follow an ongoing pattern.

Superkeepers, a losing streak, and broken tactics seem to be the same thing to me. They all happen about 2/3 years into a tactic, and then they clear up when I change tactics. Well, sometimes I still lose games because the new tactics suck but that's different ... all I need to do to fix that is make a better tactic. When you lose because of a lousy tactic, it looks & feels very different than the superkeeper treatment.

[Cannon]

They also debunked the notion of a superkeeper, yet the actual statistics strongly suggest otherwise. See a few posts earlier. I am not a big believer in 1 in 40,000 events occurring at random, particularly when they follow an ongoing pattern.

I'd argue that the superkeeper issue is completely different than a code that breaks down user's tactic. It seems quite possible that a combination of coding bugs could sometime produce unrealistic keeper performances while actually breaking down user's tactics would require programming intent and a rather tricky job of AI coding. The only bug I can think of that would look like tactic cracking would be if the match engine tracked the number of times that the user had a certain tactic and after the x number time added a negative factor that gave the AI an advantage. It seems unlikely that such a "bug" could exist without a programmer purposefully coding for it.

[JohnR]

I'd argue that the superkeeper issue is completely different than a code that breaks down user's tactic.

OK, but why do I seem to run into superkeepers with "old" tactics? I don't recall getting whacked the first year into a tactic ...

In terms of the "gel" thing, yes I see it. Every summer, like many human managers, I wheel and deal more than does the typical club. Every August, I stumble off to a slow start as my new players work their way into the rotation. Brilliant! Realistic, and a very fair penalty to pay for churning my team.

If there is a "gel" penalty for using squad rotation with existing players, I haven't seen it. Just as well, because that would be annoying since SI's fatigue thing forces a large amount of squad rotation.

[subbuteo]

I do the same thing with buying players, etc...
I spent $70 million on transers/incoming transfers in this first season so far. I think I'll try to settle down a season or two as the overall team age is pretty young.

on the whole AI thing, I guess it's possible the computer teams "scout" your team like you scout theirs and the "breaking down the tactics" can have something to do with how well they scout (and of course the quality of their players) your own team, and this may fuel any notion of an AI breaking down tactics.

I agree about how fatigue is more prevalent apparently in the sim than in real life, but it makes it more challenging (aka fun for me) when you have to rotate players in and out and have to deal with some injuries and the like.

Anyway, the game rocks I'm sure we all can agree.