Hooking for U10

[Muy Cerca]

My U10 daughter complained to me that a defender was hooking her arm to take the ball away. Not really sure what i should tell her...I was a bit surprised that she would be subjected to that type of play this early in her development. A good ref would see this....but we are talking U10 here and I doubt refs really look for this at this age. How does she respond without looking like she is the aggressor.

[Statesman]

Tell her the arms are to act like shock absorbers. The arms making contact with another player is not in of itself an offense. It's when the usage of those arms unfairly takes away the ability of the opponent to play the ball when a foul is committed. So, if "hooking" her arms has no impact on the play, it's not going to be called.

However, if the hooking does interfere, this is a holding foul. If the referee doesn't call it, tell her to try and pull away. If she can't, just tell her to yell "ref!" Maybe he or she will take notice. If not, at this age I would tell her to just keep trying to play through it.

[AtlasZorritoX4]

I would tell her to fake it, and fall down.

[refmike]

If you tell her to fake a fall, she will learn to cheat. I'm sure that was a joke.

Don't yell out to the ref. They learn to ignore that.
Don't tell the ref later. By then it is too late.

Tell her to tell the other player to stop doing what is bothering her in a voice loud enough for the ref to hear.
Don't let her push back or start an argument.

[AAGunner3]

My U10 daughter complained to me that a defender was hooking her arm to take the ball away. Not really sure what i should tell her...I was a bit surprised that she would be subjected to that type of play this early in her development. A good ref would see this....but we are talking U10 here and I doubt refs really look for this at this age. How does she respond without looking like she is the aggressor.

It is a natural development of the soccer player to seek an advantage in anyway possible. I'm not surprised that it happened at U10. If my two children are racing for an object and they can hold one back briefly enough to gain an advantage, they do it. I'd hope that the ref, if not as blind as some of us, would notice the hooking, tell the player to not do it anymore and if it continues, call a foul.

[SccrDon]

Tell her to tell the other player to stop doing what is bothering her in a voice loud enough for the ref to hear.
Don't let her push back or start an argument.

Mike, this is what I have told my daughters and their teammates for years. As a ref, what do you think (and do) when you hear a complaint from a player like this?

Thanks :)

[refmike]

Mike, this is what I have told my daughters and their teammates for years. As a ref, what do you think (and do) when you hear a complaint from a player like this?

Thanks :)

You have to keep an eye on them because you have now been warned that if you don't there will be retaliation. If they see you watching them, it will stop and you will not have to take any direct action.

[JohnR]

If you tell her to fake a fall, she will learn to cheat. I'm sure that was a joke.

?

All good soccer players cheat. Some more than others. I choose to let the kids learn how to cheat on their own. But if somebody coaches mild cheating, such as how to combat being hooked, or when to take down an opponent who has beaten them, I don't mind. As long as the moves being taught are not physically dangerous to the opponent.

[refmike]

?

All good soccer players cheat. Some more than others. I choose to let the kids learn how to cheat on their own. But if somebody coaches mild cheating, such as how to combat being hooked, or when to take down an opponent who has beaten them, I don't mind. As long as the moves being taught are not physically dangerous to the opponent.

1) Pushing the rules is not the same as overt cheating.
2) U10 Girls do not naturally cheat.
3) Anyone who incourages a player to fake an injury will be thrown out of any of my games
4) Either you are also joking or you do not belong anywhere near a youth soccer field.

[JohnR]

1) Pushing the rules is not the same as overt cheating.

A very fine line indeed.

Let's take the case of the U11 boys team that was losing badly at halftime to a smaller, better team. The coach of the losing team realized that the referee was not very competent and would probably not penalize him for deliberate fouls. He instructed his team to foul the opposition every time when the ball was at midfield. Not hard, not dangerous, just don't let them dribble.

The result was a succession of stoppages of play & harmless free kicks for the superior team, and the bigger, inferior team eventually won the game. The referee indeed was incompetent and awarded no cards for persistent infringement.

Pushing the rules? Cheating? You tell me.

2) U10 Girls do not naturally cheat.

Some U10 boys do. Although they wouldn't call it cheating. They'd call it good soccer. You will find this attitude mostly but not entirely with kids who have parents who played at a high level, or who grow up in a household where professional soccer is on TV.

3) Anyone who incourages a player to fake an injury will be thrown out of any of my games

I have no problem with that.

4) Either you are also joking or you do not belong anywhere near a youth soccer field.

:)

Save your anger for those who warrant it. For example, the coach of an 80 pound U9 player who permitted the boy to make two-footed lunges at the opposition. One day, that boy landed on a 60 lb opponent's foot at the wrong angle, wrong time. Compound fracture, minimum of 6 months' time to heal.

I don't mind if the opposition engages in petty gamesmanship and cheating, as long as they're not doing stuff like that.

[whitehound]

A very fine line indeed.

Let's take the case of the U11 boys team that was losing badly at halftime to a smaller, better team. The coach of the losing team realized that the referee was not very competent and would probably not penalize him for deliberate fouls. He instructed his team to foul the opposition every time when the ball was at midfield. Not hard, not dangerous, just don't let them dribble.

The result was a succession of stoppages of play & harmless free kicks for the superior team, and the bigger, inferior team eventually won the game. The referee indeed was incompetent and awarded no cards for persistent infringement.

Pushing the rules? Cheating? You tell me.



Some U10 boys do. Although they wouldn't call it cheating. They'd call it good soccer. You will find this attitude mostly but not entirely with kids who have parents who played at a high level, or who grow up in a household where professional soccer is on TV.



I have no problem with that.



:)

Save your anger for those who warrant it. For example, the coach of an 80 pound U9 player who permitted the boy to make two-footed lunges at the opposition. One day, that boy landed on a 60 lb opponent's foot at the wrong angle, wrong time. Compound fracture, minimum of 6 months' time to heal.

I don't mind if the opposition engages in petty gamesmanship and cheating, as long as they're not doing stuff like that.Ill tell you straight up that BOTH OF YOU ARE CHEATING. You are supposed to be an adult. What kind of leadership are you showing and what are you teaching the kids when you say "they started it!"
How exactly are you helping the problems you are complaining about by encouraging your 10 year olds to cheat? I just read a very interesting article about how many kids are choosing not to play competative sports because of attitudes that are displayed by both YOU and the coach that told his players to cheat to be competative. I hope that whatever club you belong to is not advocating your "get even" attitude to YOUTH soccer. The most important thing these kids will get from you is that it is okay to lie, cheat or steal if everyone else is doing it..........shame on you.

[JohnR]

Whitehound -

Please re-read my comments and write a response to what I wrote, not what you wish to read. I said that I do not teach kids how to cheat. So your problem is ... ?

[Statesman]

There are four parts to the cheating equation:
1) Those who cheat (players)
2) Those who teach others how to cheat (coaches)
3) Those who allow cheating (referees)
4) Those who accept the cheating (everybody else)

If you fall into any one of those four you are a part of the problem, not the solution.

[kevbrunton]

There are four parts to the cheating equation:
1) Those who cheat (players)
2) Those who teach others how to cheat (coaches)
3) Those who allow cheating (referees)
4) Those who accept the cheating (everybody else)

If you fall into any one of those four you are a part of the problem, not the solution.
Extremely well put Statesman!

[JohnR]

There are four parts to the cheating equation:
1) Those who cheat (players)
2) Those who teach others how to cheat (coaches)
3) Those who allow cheating (referees)
4) Those who accept the cheating (everybody else)

If you fall into any one of those four you are a part of the problem, not the solution.

Again, it's not that simple.

Let's say I enter a team in the city Hispanic U10 league. Every team has several kids who embellish fouls. The parents laugh. The coaches laugh. The referees don't laugh, but they are hardly shocked. Sometimes they are fooled. Sometimes they are not. Sometimes they even card that 10 year old for simulation.

If some of my U10s start to become more theatrical, I'm going to get moralistic on them? No, I'm not. You may be confident enough to tell an entire culture that they don't play the game correctly and that they're raising their children wrong. I am not.

[JohnR]

A follow-up thought -

Last year, my son (U11) played for a coach who said the following, "Kick the ball, not the opponents. But if they start kicking you, you'd better be men and kick them back."

Something tells me that the consensus on these boards is that this is a rotten coach who is part of the problem. Although every single parent on our team approved of the coach's statement.

But why? What makes your view of soccer any more valid than their view? One of the dads played professionally in Europe for 10 years. Two others played Division 1 college for 4 years and Chicago club soccer for 10 years. Another played informally for 20 years while growing up in Colombia. Several others have had older children who played at a high level in the U.S.

These are people who live & breathe soccer, who watch it on FSW and follow the U.S. National team. Some of them visit these boards (although not the referees' forum, I think).

They're wrong for thinking that a core learning experience in soccer consists of knowing when to cheat -- for example, when to whack an opponent so as to send him a message -- and when not to cheat?

Sorry, I don't think so. I think it's naive to pretend otherwise. Now, we might disagree on whether these lessons should be learned at age 19, or 14, or 10, or 6, but I don't see how we can disagree on the nature of the game itself. This is football, not golf. Stuff happens.

[Statesman]

You may be confident enough to tell an entire culture that they don't play the game correctly and that they're raising their children wrong. I am not.

I don't have to, it's written down very clearly in the Laws of the Game.

These are people who live & breathe soccer, who watch it on FSW and follow the U.S. National team. Some of them visit these boards (although not the referees' forum, I think).I find this extremely offensive. Who are you to march in here, advocate cheating, and then claim the referees who visit this forum can't possibly have that level of passion you describe?

[JohnR]

I don't have to, it's written down very clearly in the Laws of the Game.

? Please clarify. Are you calling those who violate the Laws of the Game "cheaters"? So that a person who is whistled for an infraction is immoral?

I am sure that is not what you intend. However, I do not understand your argument.

I find this extremely offensive. Who are you to march in here, advocate cheating, and then claim the referees who visit this forum can't possibly have that level of passion you describe?

This is twice incorect. I do not advocate cheating and I do not state that anybody in the whole wide world is more passionate than you.

Rather, I said that I do not get moralistic with those who cheat as long as their actions are not dangerous, and I do not believe that you have more passion for the game than the people I know.

I am happy to respond to criticisms of those viewpoints but not of views that I do not hold.

[AAGunner3]

A follow-up thought -
Last year, my son (U11) played for a coach who said the following, "Kick the ball, not the opponents. But if they start kicking you, you'd better be men and kick them back."

Something tells me that the consensus on these boards is that this is a rotten coach who is part of the problem. Although every single parent on our team approved of the coach's statement.
Pragmatic. Not right, but I think alot of parents feel if their kid is a victim of a foul, that they should foul back if the ref didn't call it. Problem is, I'm much more likely to send a kid off for retaliation than the initial foul. There might be some question of intent with the initial foul, but never the retaliation.

But why? What makes your view of soccer any more valid than their view? That we want the players to abide by the laws of the game, not the fan's, parent's or player's interpretation of it. Think of how many players still don't understand the offside rule. The rules are set by FIFA's governing body, by which all football associations agree to abide by. And as such, the players that are part of that association.

These are people who live & breathe soccer, who watch it on FSW and follow the U.S. National team. Some of them visit these boards (although not the referees' forum, I think).
Way the heck off base here. I started at 6. I was a teen during the 90 campaign. I dig the '94 jerseys. But I'm a fan of the game first. I didn't start playing because of them. I played because I loved the game. My national pride is why I root for the national team. And boy do I. But I still cringe when I see one of our guys go down like a sack of potatoes, embellishing a foul. That's not part of the game. That's gamesmanship. It's illegal, and in my opinion, unmanly.

They're wrong for thinking that a core learning experience in soccer consists of knowing when to cheat -- for example, when to whack an opponent so as to send him a message -- and when not to cheat? Yes they are wrong. The rules say so, and are there to protect the players. That's why the rules exists, and we as referees try to enforce them. Can't prevent it from happening, but we can discipline as required. And believe you me, you can send a message legally in the game without it being cheating. Even better that it be done that way so that if anything comes of it, he goes out of the match and not you.

Sorry, I don't think so. I think it's naive to pretend otherwise. Now, we might disagree on whether these lessons should be learned at age 19, or 14, or 10, or 6, but I don't see how we can disagree on the nature of the game itself. This is football, not golf. Stuff happens.
Is cheating part of the game? Sure. It's basically human nature. And we do our best to keep it to a minimum. But we're outnumbered, easily shielded from play and human. Hopefully our enforcing the rules properly, extends the playing career of your and my favorite players. I do disagree on teaching it, period.

I pray your kid doesn't become victim of another player 'sending a message'.

[refmike]

"I do not get moralistic with those who cheat..."

OK, but you darn well better call it.
Your position implies you would let it go because it is "part of the game".

Our job out there is to keep the game safe and fair. We have to know where to draw the line and I am sure we all try to do just that. If you will do your job without getting upset that cheating happens, then we have no argument.
Perhaps that is what you meant and the rest of the conversation is of no value.

As to the parents and coaches who tell their kids that if the ref won't call the fouls, then they must get even on their own; that is a sad fact of life. The young refs will eventually learn and then they and I must "unteach" the players. This is complicated by what we see the pros getting away with because they are bigger and stronger and more able to take it. All this does not make it right.

The bottom line is that cheating is wrong. It should not be done and cannot be allowed. Either you are part of the solution or part of the problem.