Arena-Ball, fullbacks, and Ajax of Amsterdam

[appoo]

Whats the connection between Arena-Ball and Ajax's system of play under Keomen? The fullbacks are basically attacking wingers who line up along side central defenders.

Under both systems, the first responsibility of the fullbacks is not neccasarily to defend, its to support the offense and initiate attacks. Another great example of this is Brazil. or Arsenal. If you think about this, all the great offensive teams have fullbacks who attack more than they defend. And Arena wants to play this way.

This is why putting Boca out on the left is a bad idea. Just take a look what happened against Holland. We had no attack at all down the wings because niether Hejduk nor Bocanegra had the ability to initiate attacks, and then support an attack.

[Chowderhead]

And to compound matters in the Holland game Bruce overburdened the most,um, challenged player on the squad by having him work the whole right side. That was a brilliant move. Arena should have been sent to a state institution after that wrinkle. Marone.

[appoo]

And to compound matters in the Holland game Bruce overburdened the most,um, challenged player on the squad by having him work the whole right side. That was a brilliant move. Arena should have been sent to a state institution after that wrinkle. Marone.
well I wasn't actually talking about the MERITS of Arena's system. Just what he wants to do with his team in general terms.

[PaulGascoigne]

And to compound matters in the Holland game Bruce overburdened the most,um, challenged player on the squad by having him work the whole right side. That was a brilliant move. Arena should have been sent to a state institution after that wrinkle. Marone.

Several comments:

1. ...and things went way downhill after that Holland match...

2. No Obrien, so our attack out of the back was going to be limited regardless.

3. The whole team couldn't string together 3 passes the entire game.

4. The most pathetic thing was not Heyduk, it was the fact that until the last 10 minutes the forwards were horrible.

5. It was our best 11 available, but it was the first time we put them together since Korea/Japan.

6. We lost 1-0 on the road to a top 10 team we have never beaten.

7. "marone" (?) :D

8. Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you.

[AwayKit]

And to compound matters in the Holland game Bruce overburdened the most,um, challenged player on the squad by having him work the whole right side. That was a brilliant move. Arena should have been sent to a state institution after that wrinkle. Marone.

And even after a number of warning shots, he didn't change his system at the half. Very frustrating.

[onefineesq]

Under both systems, the first responsibility of the fullbacks is not neccasarily to defend, its to support the offense and initiate attacks. Another great example of this is Brazil. or Arsenal. If you think about this, all the great offensive teams have fullbacks who attack more than they defend. And Arena wants to play this way.

This is why putting Boca out on the left is a bad idea. Just take a look what happened against Holland. We had no attack at all down the wings because niether Hejduk nor Bocanegra had the ability to initiate attacks, and then support an attack.

gotta disagree with you here appoo. in another thread a few weeks back, i read a quote from Bruce where he specifically stated that the primary job of all of his defenders (not just center backs) was to defend. his statement was in response to the question of whether he had been following Jonathan Spector in England. He praised him for his ability to go forward, but noted that he had to continue to learn to defend as that is always a defenders primary job.

[appoo]

gotta disagree with you here appoo. in another thread a few weeks back, i read a quote from Bruce where he specifically stated that the primary job of all of his defenders (not just center backs) was to defend. his statement was in response to the question of whether he had been following Jonathan Spector in England. He praised him for his ability to go forward, but noted that he had to continue to learn to defend as that is always a defenders primary job.
well thats pretty interesting. Based upon what happes on the field of play do you believe him when says that?

[Martin Fischer]

gotta disagree with you here appoo. in another thread a few weeks back, i read a quote from Bruce where he specifically stated that the primary job of all of his defenders (not just center backs) was to defend. his statement was in response to the question of whether he had been following Jonathan Spector in England. He praised him for his ability to go forward, but noted that he had to continue to learn to defend as that is always a defenders primary job.

That's why Arena has invested so much in the Convey at left back experiment because he wants to upgrade the USMNT defensively at this position. :confused:

I don't know what the "primary" role is but in Arena's system, as with most systems, the outside backs have to be able to defend competently. However, once that basic level of defensive competence has been reached, the distinguishing thing is the ability to go forward. It depends on form, tactics and the situation, but my opinion is that if he had several outside backs who was competentl defensively, Arena would go for the one that adds the most to the attack, regardless of what the primary role of the position is.

[onefineesq]

well thats pretty interesting. Based upon what happes on the field of play do you believe him when says that?

honestly, I don't think that we've had the type of players who could go forward from those positions. if you are looking strictly FOR that, i guess Convey would be your man. however, in the toughest games, he seems to love Vanney and Hejduk. it now seems that Vanney has finally fallen out of favor after a couple of TERRIBLE qualifying games, and I'm happy for that. Honestly, if the choice is between Convey and Vanney, I would go with
Convey because Vanney has no wheels whatsoever and it's a terrible liability (see Panama). Anyway, i've gone on record several times as saying that BA's teams are too conservative for my liking, but that's just one mans opinion. With that being said, you already know where i stand on this one. until Convey gets more playing time at that position for his club team and proves his mettle, I would start Boca out there because we have centerbacks who can step in.

[onefineesq]

That's why Arena has invested so much in the Convey at left back experiment because he wants to upgrade the USMNT defensively at this position. :confused:

I don't know what the "primary" role is but in Arena's system, as with most systems, the outside backs have to be able to defend competently. However, once that basic level of defensive competence has been reached, the distinguishing thing is the ability to go forward. It depends on form, tactics and the situation, but my opinion is that if he had several outside backs who was competentl defensively, Arena would go for the one that adds the most to the attack, regardless of what the primary role of the position is.

I'm just reporting the news Martin. I don't make it. in the same thread i'm talking about, somebody made exactly the same point as you. Appoo knows from previous conversations that I am also in agreement with you. But as i said, I am only reporting what he said.

[afgrijselijkheid]

Several comments:2. No Obrien, so our attack out of the back was going to be limited regardless.



ummm and he played wingback for the US when?

[appoo]

until Convey gets more playing time at that position for his club team and proves his mettle, I would start Boca out there because we have centerbacks who can step in.
if Arena told his wingers to get wide and STAY wide then I would agree 100% with this. Then the fullbacks would not have to get forward nearly as much. But half of the time we don't even play with wingers. They pinch in too much. With Bocanegra, he would have a hard time overlapping and getting forward and then getting back to cover his defensive responsibilities. What would happen is that he just wouldn't get forward and then we'd have this massive hole along the left side. Or what we have on the right when Hejduk starts at Right back.

[Khan]

This has got to be the silliest of ideas. [Fullbacks as attackers, primarily/defenders secondarily??????] Were this a tactical truth of soccer, why not put your BEST WIDE-sided players at fullback? Why doesn't Portugal install Figo as a fullback? Why didn't Cruyff play fullback? Were this true, why not cap the "attacking fullback," Orlando Perez? He's great going forward, but the problem is that he CAN'T FREAKING MARK HIS OWN SHADOW.

Of course, apoo, your man-lover, ConVAY can't either. Your thinly veiled attempt to push ConVAY as a realistic option as a fullback is at best a bad idea, and at worst, a practical joke on the rest of the team.

Arena should either:

A: Invest the time in finding fullbacks that are solid defenders FIRST, and then good moving forward SECOND.

B: Admit that the current pool of talent lacks the type of player to play fullback, and modify his tactics to suit the talent, rather than the other way around.


Cheers!

[appoo]

This has got to be the silliest of ideas. [Fullbacks as attackers, primarily/defenders secondarily??????] Were this a tactical truth of soccer, why not put your BEST WIDE-sided players at fullback? Why doesn't Portugal install Figo as a fullback? Why didn't Cruyff play fullback? Were this true, why not cap the "attacking fullback," Orlando Perez? He's great going forward, but the problem is that he CAN'T FREAKING MARK HIS OWN SHADOW.

Of course, apoo, your man-lover, ConVAY can't either. Your thinly veiled attempt to push ConVAY as a realistic option as a fullback is at best a bad idea, and at worst, a practical joke on the rest of the team.

Arena should either:

A: Invest the time in finding fullbacks that are solid defenders FIRST, and then good moving forward SECOND.

B: Admit that the current pool of talent lacks the type of player to play fullback, and modify his tactics to suit the talent, rather than the other way around.


Cheers!
you know, onefinesq pretty much disagrees with me about Convey also. just like you. any idea why I can actually (normally) stand to engage in a debate with him but not you?

[onefineesq]

you know, onefinesq pretty much disagrees with me about Convey also. just like you. any idea why I can actually (normally) stand to engage in a debate with him but not you?

yeah, this is true. :) but let me point out something so you understand. i am a DCU fan. I would LOVE for BC to prove that he is better than I think. I only want the best players we have on our national team. IF BC is one, FINE. if he's not, FINE. I'm sure that you have seen in many other posts of mine that I am against choosing Esky over Buddle. I just think that Buddle has more upside and is a better player. Doesn't mean that I hate Esky. Hell, Esky is great player for DCU. However, I hold potential national teamers to a higher standard. I'm tough on Bobby because (1) I don't think Bobby was fair to DCU and/or MLS (my own opinion which many disagree with), and (2) more importantly, i just don't think he has raised his game to the level to be a national team starter. Maybe my first complaint is not fair to Bobby. If so, that's something that I have to work on. however, number 2 is what I'm still struggling with.

[appoo]

yeah, this is true. :) but let me point out something so you understand. i am a DCU fan. I would LOVE for BC to prove that he is better than I think. I only want the best players we have on our national team. IF BC is one, FINE. if he's not, FINE. I'm sure that you have seen in many other posts of mine that I am against choosing Esky over Buddle. I just think that Buddle has more upside and is a better player. Doesn't mean that I hate Esky. Hell, Esky is great player for DCU. However, I hold potential national teamers to a higher standard. I'm tough on Bobby because (1) I don't think Bobby was fair to DCU and/or MLS (my own opinion which many disagree with), and (2) more importantly, i just don't think he has raised his game to the level to be a national team starter. Maybe my first complaint is not fair to Bobby. If so, that's something that I have to work on. however, number 2 is what I'm still struggling with.
I've always understood your points on Convey. You just never thought he was a good player. Which I disagree with and can respect. I don't think Mathis is a good enough player but I'm sure there are many who can disagree with that.

I never get annoyed with people who merely think that Bobby isn't a good player. Wat gets me annoyed are those who manage to infer random things about him. Like he doesn't want to play for USA, or he's selfish, or whatever. Or they decide to attack me based upon my opinion. That, I just ignore.


Let's not turn this into a Convey thread, I actually thought this thread was leading to a pretty good discussion about Arena's tactics in general. I'd like to get it back to that.

[ripmstr]

Whats the connection between Arena-Ball and Ajax's system of play under Keomen? The fullbacks are basically attacking wingers who line up along side central defenders.

Under both systems, the first responsibility of the fullbacks is not neccasarily to defend, its to support the offense and initiate attacks. Another great example of this is Brazil. or Arsenal. If you think about this, all the great offensive teams have fullbacks who attack more than they defend. And Arena wants to play this way.

This is why putting Boca out on the left is a bad idea. Just take a look what happened against Holland. We had no attack at all down the wings because niether Hejduk nor Bocanegra had the ability to initiate attacks, and then support an attack.

How about this idea: based on discussion we've had regarding Convey and I agree I don't want to put Boca outside although I believe he could do a great job, why not drop DMB to left back and play Eddie Lewis wide left? Maybe even put Convey out there. That gives you all the attack you can ask for. out of those two positions.

DMB has the skill the speed and I think the mindset to play in the back.

[onefineesq]

I've always understood your points on Convey. You just never thought he was a good player. Which I disagree with and can respect. I don't think Mathis is a good enough player but I'm sure there are many who can disagree with that.

I never get annoyed with people who merely think that Bobby isn't a good player. Wat gets me annoyed are those who manage to infer random things about him. Like he doesn't want to play for USA, or he's selfish, or whatever. Or they decide to attack me based upon my opinion. That, I just ignore.


Let's not turn this into a Convey thread, I actually thought this thread was leading to a pretty good discussion about Arena's tactics in general. I'd like to get it back to that.

Fair enough. And amazingly enough, I will say this. Of the two games that we are playing, I see it as more likely that Convey plays in the road game at LB as the 2nd game against Panama. Why? Because from what i have seen, El Salvador showed absolutely no true ability to attack. Panama on the other hand, was very dangerous against Vanney out in that left back spot. Now, do i necessarily believe in the match-up system? well, that all depends on how good you think your team is. apparently, Bruce doesn't think we are all that good, because truly good teams play their best and forces others teams to match up to his best, rather than switching players in fear of the opponent. it is that difference that I have which leads me to the conclusion that Arena should put Boca back there. However, Sanneh's injury has changed everything. also, i fear that Bruce will be hesitant to attack either game, unlike what you may think. why? because El Salvador is a road game, and i think he is scared of a repeat against panama (where we tired inexplicably and were essentially run off the field in the 2nd half).

[Chowderhead]

Several comments:

1. ...and things went way downhill after that Holland match...

2. No Obrien, so our attack out of the back was going to be limited regardless.

3. The whole team couldn't string together 3 passes the entire game.

4. The most pathetic thing was not Heyduk, it was the fact that until the last 10 minutes the forwards were horrible.

5. It was our best 11 available, but it was the first time we put them together since Korea/Japan.

6. We lost 1-0 on the road to a top 10 team we have never beaten.

7. "marone" (?) :D

8. Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you.

How then did Hejduk's solo album with the London Philharmonic (produced by B. Arena) help things?

[xkimo_fire]

How about this idea: based on discussion we've had regarding Convey and I agree I don't want to put Boca outside although I believe he could do a great job, why not drop DMB to left back and play Eddie Lewis wide left? Maybe even put Convey out there. That gives you all the attack you can ask for. out of those two positions.

DMB has the skill the speed and I think the mindset to play in the back.


You don't move your best midfielder to another spot, because another player can't cut it. You try to find a player that has the versatility to branch out.

If I was reading Bruce's mind I would say that he is trying to find a new center back pairing and thinking of replacing Pope (incase of injury, age, or something else)

Gibbs had a really bad game last time, maybe because of the field, but he couldn't pass at all. This comes after the Holland game where he was spectacular.. So I think he is just waiting for the player to push the incumbent player (Beasley - Lewis / Ching - McBride)

Some of the players could be better outside backs are Bocranegra/Garcia