Valencia v Liverpool

[kopiteinkc]

Well we didn't start very well last year either.

I think a lot of our problems will be solved when Henchoz is back. I'd like to see Babbel back too.

Anyway, my fingers are too tired to type any more.

[BrianCappellieri]

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/champions_league/2261032.stm)Valencia ease past Liverpool

Liverpool's Champions League campaign opened in disappointing fashion as they were swept aside by impressive Valencia in the Mestalla Stadium.

[paulocesar]

Ala Red Hot Chilli Peppers:

"...give it away, give it away, give it away now...

...give it away, give it away, give it away now!?!?!"
-------
uhhh....defense anyone????

















Didn't someone post a "Who will stop Liverpool this year"??????????????????

[YanksFC]

Trolls have very limited life spans in this forum. I suggest you go away and stay away.

[655321]

Originally posted by paulocesar
Ala Red Hot Chilli Peppers:

"...give it away, give it away, give it away now...

...give it away, give it away, give it away now!?!?!"
-------


If you're going to troll, at least be clever or funny.

[RedKnight]

Originally posted by paulocesar


Didn't someone post a "Who will stop Liverpool this year"??????????????????


The irony here is that the person who initiated
the "Who will stop Liverpool" thread was, IIRC,
not a Red, but a troll himself--who was banned
from the bigsoccer.com site entirely just a
couple of days ago!

[BrianCappellieri]

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/champions_league/2265271.stm)Houllier admits tactics failed

Gerard Houllier admitted his tactical plan failed as Valencia made it a miserable Champions League start for Liverpool.

Ananova (http://www.ananova.com/sport/story/sm_672601.html)Houllier: My players are angry with themselves

Gerard Houllier admitted his Liverpool team were angry with themselves after their disappointing Champions League opening defeat in Valencia.

SkySports (http://msn.skysports.com/skysports/article/0,,3160-1064622,00.html)HOULLIER: WE DID NOT SEE REAL LIVERPOOL

A stunned Gerard Houllier admitted that his shattered Liverpool stars were angry with themselves after their disastrous Champions League opening defeat in Valencia.

The Telegraph (http://sport.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2002/09/18/sfgliv18.xml&sSheet=/sport/2002/09/18/ixsport.html)Hamann compounds Liverpool problems

Those who still rate the Premiership above the Primera Liga will struggle to persuade a plane-load of Liverpool footballers arriving back home today that the English game still has much to teach Spain.

This is Anfield (http://www.thisisanfield.com/columnists/archives/00000049.php)Outpassed and outclassed

It’s an obvious statement but I’m going to make it anyhow: tonight was not a good night for Liverpool Football Club. Going to Valencia, the reigning Spanish champions, is never an easy task but going there with question marks over our defence is even harder.

[kopiteinkc]

I am glad the players are being quoted as being angry. Pretty pissed off myself.

I think we might see a backlash this weekend. Baggies be warned.

Owen and Baros should start and I think Cheyrou deserves a full 90 minutes. Maybe at left midfield.

Initial reports suggest that Dudek, Carragher and Cheyrou are the only players who played well today.

[Matt Clark]

Well, let's not sugarcoat it. That was our worst European display since Celta Vigo in '98. "Shambolic" is really the only way to put it.

Ah well. Onward and upward.

[Lanky134]

Ugly.

Our clearances, so vital for making that transition, were dreadful. Instead we played hoof-and-regroup.

Diao in the center made far too many plays that reminded us of Rigobert. Diouf has looked horrible every time we've played in a 4-4-2.

By the time Gerrard got into the game, we were down 2-0. Heskey was his usual hardworking and tireless self, but, apart from his attempt in the 35th(?), he was reduced to playing target man because our inability to possess in the midfield in the first half nullified him.

Ref was awful and carded us for their dives and exaggerations, while we were lucky if we got the call (and that includes Owen's denied penalty - the guy must still be upset at that whole 5-1 thing, as Bjornebye mentioned to me), while we were lucky if we got the whistle.

Neither of Didi's cards were deserved. On the second, there was some shirt pulling from both, and Didi was doing a good job to shield the ball. Mista jumps on top of Didi, who pushes him off and gets sent off.

Still, the ref didn't lose the game for us. Valencia are damn good, and were beautiful to watch, but we should've put up a better fight than this.

Dave

[RedKnight]

I didn’t have access to a TV broadcast of the debacle; heard in on the LFC.TV web site.

I was going to post an analysis—to the best of my ability—on the match.
But then I read this:

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N136648020918-1427.htm

Quote:

“Jerzy Dudek reflected on last night's disappointing 2-0 defeat in Valencia and admitted: ‘We played like girls.’”

Which is one way of summing it up, I guess.

We lost the match we were most likely to lose in this Group. End of story.

[kopiteinkc]

Originally posted by RedKnight

We lost the match we were most likely to lose in this Group. End of story.

Very true.

I just think the manner in which we played is disappointing us the most.

If you play well but lose a close match, well then you can at least hold your head up and say we did our best.

Unfortunately that wasn't the case last night.

At least we have the rest of the group matches to recover. We certainly don't want to underestimate Basle and Sp. Moscow either.

A good win against West Brom will set us up nicely for the Basle match. But West Brom shouldn't be underestimated either.

[LiverpoolFanatic]

Originally posted by Matt Clark
Well, let's not sugarcoat it. That was our worst European display since Celta Vigo in '98.

Mostovoi (sp) ruled that match. I still hold grudge against him for it.

[Matt Clark]

Houllier simply got the tactics wrong last night. He hasn't settled on his strongest side yet, given that the default 11 that has served us so well in games like this in recent years was either unavailable or ran counter to his new philosophy for an attacking evolution in our style.

It made sense on paper to have Heskey as the physical thrust at the head of a team against Valencia's sturdy defence. Likewise, it made sense to use Diouf as a roving support striker, given the unpredictability he brings to the game. It made sense to go with as settled a middle as possible with Hamann, Murphy, Gerrard and Riise a strong and dynamic formation.

At the back, the use of Diao at centre-back was questionable, but then neither Carra nor Traore have distinguished themselves in that position and whoever played, the telepathic combination of the Aitches was lost to us in any case.

But in reality, Heskey was too often left isolated, Diouf was a CRIMINAL waster of the ball (I read somewhere that we gave the ball away 15 times in the first half and that he was responsible for 12 of those occasions) and the midfield was outhustled and out-thought by a brilliant central combination of Baraja and Aimar. Add to that the fact that their full-backs had more or less nothing to do to counter the threat of Riise and Murphy (both of whom were being sucked into the centre to help out) and therefore could add to the attack almost at will and you have a recipe for failure.

Had Henchoz being playing, he would have been on hand to advance upon and block Baraja for the second goal. Instead, Perregrino was able to dummy across Hyypia and draw him away from Baraja because Diao was nowhere to be seen on either player and Sami was left with two attacking midfielders playing him like a Banjo. The first goal was one of those where you just have to go "fine, great goal". Nothing we could do really, unless you posit that a more traditional Liverpool approach would not have let play develop in the final third like that.

But overall, we were beaten by a very good team who took full advantage of what was a very poor performance by an unsettled Liverpool side.

[paulocesar]

Originally posted by YanksFC
Trolls have very limited life spans in this forum. I suggest you go away and stay away.

Is that a threat???

...look, I want Liverpool to go far in the Champions League (or any type of success to shut up Manure fans)...

...but excuse me for my sarcasm when its the fifth game in a row that the much hailed Red defense has allowed 2 goals in...

I admit Henchoz's return will help...but is that alone going to do it?

Couple that with Owen's little rut as well as his and Gerard's recurrent injury problems, ....really..., a little pessimism is only natural ....

... and I'm still questioning Houlier's decision to let "God"...er Fowler go.... (I know Barros is good...but he's no "God".)

[YanksFC]

Originally posted by paulocesar
Is that a threat???

...look, I want Liverpool to go far in the Champions League (or any type of success to shut up Manure fans)...

...but excuse me for my sarcasm when its the fifth game in a row that the much hailed Red defense has allowed 2 goals in...

I admit Henchoz's return will help...but is that alone going to do it?

Couple that with Owen's little rut as well as his and Gerard's recurrent injury problems, ....really..., a little pessimism is only natural ....

... and I'm still questioning Houlier's decision to let "God"...er Fowler go.... (I know Barros is good...but he's no "God".)

Realize that sarcasm doesn't translate well on a computer screen. For all intents and purposes, you appeared to be flame-baiting, especially since this was the first time I've ever seen you in this forum. Hence, my response.

You have to understand that we who frequent this forum pride ourselves on that fact that we have intelligent discussions here. That's why I suggested that if you were trolling, you should leave. Our mod maintains a nice level of control here to prevent trolling and flaming from getting out of hand.

Now if you want to intelligently discuss the merits of the game and Houllier's strategy -- well then talk away.

Now as to your points --

Yes, Henchoz will help, as well as the return of a completely healthy Babbel. Diao is a midfielder, not a defender, and Hyypia is not used to playing with him.

Owen will shake it off. The guy is world class despite what Kily Gonzalez says. Gerrard is in good form right now and healthy, and I don't expect that will change.

As for Baros (that's one "r", not two), it's far too early to judge how he'll stack up against Fowler.

[paulocesar]

Originally posted by Matt Clark
Well, let's not sugarcoat it. That was our worst European display since Celta Vigo in '98. "Shambolic" is really the only way to put it.

Ah well. Onward and upward.

I think that states what happened perfectly...

Looking back, my response was a bit shoddy...

(but mind ya...a couple of pints and a lost wager would elicit silly remarks from many...)

[LiverpoolFanatic]

paulocesar--- welcome to this corner of Bigsoccer. We in the very recent past (last week) were having to deal with a comlpete idiot, who did nothing but hurl insults at others, and made no valid points. Consequently new peopel to this forum will probably be treated suspiciously at first. Sorry 'bout that.

[usscouse]

Originally posted by kopiteinkc
I am glad the players are being quoted as being angry. Pretty pissed off myself.

I think we might see a backlash this weekend. Baggies be warned.

Owen and Baros should start and I think Cheyrou deserves a full 90 minutes. Maybe at left midfield.

Initial reports suggest that Dudek, Carragher and Cheyrou are the only players who played well today.
I was so pissed I forgot to thank you for the match run down…Or maybe I was pissed at you for letting me know how bad they were playing..But thanks

[Matt Clark]

Paolo

Welcome to this neck of the woods. I take it the initial glitch has now been ironed out to everyone's satisfaction?

To answer your points, it is undoubtledly the "much-vaunted Reds defence" that is at fault for the negatives we have had to endure thus far this season.

Hyypia, after a typically peerless start to the campaign, has dipped slightly. It would be imperceptible, were it not also for the enforced changes going on around him. The absence of Henchoz has not helped (ref my point about the way the Aitches together would have prevented Baraja's goal) but more importantly, the placement of Riise in midfield or on the bench and the inconsistent use of Carragher have not helped either.

The return of Henchoz to the centre, Babbel to the and Carragher to the left (in a straight and even fight with Traore) will bring back a lot of the control we currently lack. It is also worth bearing in mind that Houllier's new emphasis on attack (a direct product of the often abject nature of our link play last year, with the midfield entirely anonymous for large stretches of the season) means that the back four are afforded less protection than in recent years. Hamann, for instance, no longer restricts himself to simply patrolling the kill space across the channels between midfield and defence. We no longer play two banks of four looking to feed the strikers with quick, long passes.

This means that our midfield is far more prominent and dynamic. It is no coincidence that both Murphy and Gerrard have been in amazing form this season. Their involvement in the rythm of the game has increased manifold.

Basically, Ged has not yet settled on his best 11. Early season form is often shaky because new players need to be assimilated. It always amuses me to see fans who have spent all summer clamouring for new, exciting signings then spend the first three months of the season complaining about every reverse these new team formations and players are party to. It takes time to gel. Once we have a settled back four, we will be far more authoritative in defence and the midfield, if it continues in the current vein will be a potent weapon.

Which leaves attack.

Owen's loss of sharpness is just the natural, cyclical thing that strikers endure. When Fowler went through a similar dip in form in 97 (right after he had finished the pervious season with 30 goals for the third consecutive season) he was similarly abused by the idiotic minority that understands little of the game beyond it's initial veneer. Anyone who doubts his ability or his preeminence in team selection should check up on Ayala's comments about his presence on Tuesday. "We were surprised he didn't start, we expected to see him out there. When he did come on, he made us worry".

End of story.

Baros has waited patiently for his chance and looks a good bet. I remember I saw one of his first games for the reserves in January and he looked odd - clearly with skill, but out of condition and hesitant in controlling the ball and lifting his head all the time as he struck it. As Ged himself has confided, his own staff doubted the wisdom of the purchase at times, now people are talking about him as a straight replacement for Micheal Owen! We shall see ...

Diouf needs to settle and learn that simple balls, well played, are always preferable to a flicked back heel pass to the opposing full-back.

It's a formative stage of the season. We are playing a new style, with new players. We will never have the same defensive solidity we have had in the last two years, we are going to concede more goals this season than previously normal. But we are also going to be playing better football and scoring more goals.

Which is how you win things.