The More I Hear About Isreal...The Less I like It.

[K:theCore]

Just venting here. As children, Im sure its safe to assume that we were told physical retaliation never pays.

But as adults, we are forced to watch the bullshiet events that occur in Isreali controlled territories on a daily basis. Is it going to end? I really dont think it is, and truth be told we are probably getting closer to the shiet really hitting the fan.

Just saw a documentary on HBO not too long ago called "Children of Gaza" or something to that effect. Not a very pretty picture was painted. Depicted Palestinians as a hateful bunch (probably rightfully so) but what really struck me about the people there was how deeply oppressed they were. Isreal is not allowing them a chance at anything right now.

No education and moreover, completely ignorant. I realize this was just a portion of the population which was covered but still...there is deep hate fueled by the need to avenge....suicide terrorism. And then of course Isreal is playing the game by going after the heads and taking down anyone else who might be in the area. Its not going to end.

I have a friend here who says he confronted a bunch of Isrealis on the matter at school and they became immediately offended and almost physical on the argument. I believe my friends bold comments were "What the hell are you guys doing over there?"

I apologize for the deep subject matter in advanced but I am stoned. Anybody else have thoughts on the matter?

[the_13th_redneck]

Israel... it is a country in a very unfortunate situation. Its neighbors constantly plot for its demise and terrorism is a way of life.
How are you supposed to diplomatically deal with entities that fully endorse your full destruction or organizations whose constitution is based on your destruction?
It's easy to criticize Israel but they have a challenge that is simply incredible.
As for bulldozing houses, it's true, they do it because they leave booby traps in them so when Israeli soldiers try to clear it, it goes off, killing the soldiers.
I'm not sure what to think about it but if you know the history you know that time and again generally it is the Arab side that has blown off the diplomatic channels.
Israelis want peace too. Their opponents just don't really give them an option.

[meron]

Israel definitely pisses me off although the arabs just as bad. They eat the same food and look alike to me. It's like a nightmare version of KOrea v. Japan. But then can you imagine if you're in a busy pizza place ordering a pizza and some sweaty guy comes in mutters, "allah, blah blah blah" and all hell breaks lose. Imagine if you lose someone you lose to a suicide bomber like that. t's really friggin sad all around.

[the_13th_redneck]

Korea vs Japan is nothing compared to this really. Well maybe in the old days yeah so there's no way I cannot feel some sympathy for the Palestinians but they have screwed up on every opportunity.
Not really Palestinians per se but Yassir Arafat.
Israel's had its good moments and bad moments... right now it's one of their bad moments. I just don't see how this conflict will ever be resolved.

Here's a common myth that must be busted first: The Palestinian nationality wasn't created until after the creation of Israel. Until that time, they were merely Arabs living in a land called Palestine. There were Jews living their anyway, just obviously not that much. So it's not like there was an organized Palestinian country that was robbed in exchange for Israel... so it's not like Korea taken over by Japan.

[K:theCore]

Here's a common myth that must be busted first: The Palestinian nationality wasn't created until after the creation of Israel. Until that time, they were merely Arabs living in a land called Palestine. There were Jews living their anyway, just obviously not that much. So it's not like there was an organized Palestinian country that was robbed in exchange for Israel... so it's not like Korea taken over by Japan.

And that makes a difference how??? They still took land (granted under the authority of the UN backed mostly by the United States) that they think is rightfully theres.

They uprooted a bunch of "arabs" and from what I understand, massacred a good number of them in the process.

In my mind, Isreal is definitely responsible for whats going on there right now. They are the higher power which is oppressing a whole population of people and only fueling the flame here.

What...do they think this eye for an eye campaign is really going to work? Dont they realize that for every terrorist leader they kill, theres going to be another that comes up to replace them?

[the_13th_redneck]

Well the fact that it wasn't a Palestinian country to begin with does make a difference.
People like to tell you that their country was stolen. That's not true.
In fact, while the West worked in the area to try to come with a compromise between the Israelis and Palestinian Arabs, the Arabs simply boycotted the meetings etc. committing political suicide. Then they launched the war against Israel where they lost all their territory.

Israel is said to be responsible for everything but what about the UK who were the chief agent in creating the state of Israel?
Or what about the Arabs who turned a delicate situation into an all out war?

Ugh anyways, if you were in charge of Israel what would you do?

[K:theCore]

Former Prime Minister, Menachim Begin, was one of Isreali's biggest terrorists.

He was a right winger who got ticked off when Great Britain began restricting immigration in 1940. The British offered a reward for his capture, but they never caught him.

Under Begin's command, the underground terrorist group Irgun carried out numerous acts of violence.

Sharon was another dirtbag back in the day.

[the_13th_redneck]

That is absolutely true.
In the earliest days it was actually the Israelis who conducted the terrorist attacks trying to make things go their way. They were pretty much on the UK's s*** list and STILL the Arabs f***ed it up.
As for the state of the Palestinian Arabs having no land etc. I blame that on no one other than the Arabs themselves. Had the Arabs not invaded Israel, I don't think Israel would have taken the West Bank, Golan Heights and the Gaza strip because they were a new country trying to look good to the Europeans.

Former Prime Minister, Menachim Begin, was one of Isreali's biggest terrorists.

He was a right winger who got ticked off when Great Britain began restricting immigration in 1940. The British offered a reward for his capture, but they never caught him.

Under Begin's command, the underground terrorist group Irgun carried out numerous acts of violence.

Sharon was another dirtbag back in the day.

[K:theCore]

That is absolutely true.
In the earliest days it was actually the Israelis who conducted the terrorist attacks trying to make things go their way. They were pretty much on the UK's s*** list and STILL the Arabs f***ed it up.
As for the state of the Palestinian Arabs having no land etc. I blame that on no one other than the Arabs themselves. Had the Arabs not invaded Israel, I don't think Israel would have taken the West Bank, Golan Heights and the Gaza strip because they were a new country trying to look good to the Europeans.


So how did this newly formed country thwart off an Arab attack? I think we all know the answer to that.

This smells, man.

Youre not talking about a country simply taking over a country...youre talking about a huge religion factor that Im not able to get into. Its a lot deeper than the mere historical timeline that youre pointing out.

Youre talking about Arabs who dont lie down or compromise on matters like land occupation. Its not in their blood.

[the_13th_redneck]

How did hte newly formed country thwart off an Arab attack? Well first off, the Arab attack was REALLY poorly coordinated. Rich Jews abroad obviously supplied the Israeli state with lots of weapons.
Not only that, but Jews in Israel were a war hardened bunch already. Many were concentration camp survivors, others had actually served in European armies before, some perhaps also in the American army. One must remember that the Israelis had just arrived fresh from the Holocaust and felt that the existence of the Jewish state was the only way to guarantee their survival.
But the key was, the Arabs went in with hardly half a plan and that's why it fell apart.
Basically set the stage for the next 50 years. Only under Anwar Sadat would any Arab country launch a successful attack against Israel. Not coincidently, Anwar Sadat was probably the most intelligent, level headed and reasonable leader the region had seen (including Israeli leaders). He tried to settle for peace and gave his life for it.

Personally if I was in charge of the whole thing, I would have asked the Jews to settle for a compromise and would have given them a piece of Canada or something.

So how did this newly formed country thwart off an Arab attack? I think we all know the answer to that.

This smells, man.

Youre not talking about a country simply taking over a country...youre talking about a huge religion factor that Im not able to get into. Its a lot deeper than the mere historical timeline that youre pointing out.

Youre talking about Arabs who dont lie down or compromise on matters like land occupation. Its not in their blood.

[the_13th_redneck]

Oh yeah, Israel also had a key friend in France. France supplied lots of military materiel to Israel and was a major supporter of equipment for decades.

How did hte newly formed country thwart off an Arab attack? Well first off, the Arab attack was REALLY poorly coordinated. Rich Jews abroad obviously supplied the Israeli state with lots of weapons.
Not only that, but Jews in Israel were a war hardened bunch already. Many were concentration camp survivors, others had actually served in European armies before, some perhaps also in the American army. One must remember that the Israelis had just arrived fresh from the Holocaust and felt that the existence of the Jewish state was the only way to guarantee their survival.
But the key was, the Arabs went in with hardly half a plan and that's why it fell apart.
Basically set the stage for the next 50 years. Only under Anwar Sadat would any Arab country launch a successful attack against Israel. Not coincidently, Anwar Sadat was probably the most intelligent, level headed and reasonable leader the region had seen (including Israeli leaders). He tried to settle for peace and gave his life for it.

Personally if I was in charge of the whole thing, I would have asked the Jews to settle for a compromise and would have given them a piece of Canada or something.

[the_13th_redneck]

By the way this part of your argument only proves my point.
And yeah I know what their stance is. I've had a Palestinian friend here actually. But we rarely see each other so kind of grown apart. Growing up I've had loads of Arab (mostly Egyptian) friends but no Israeli friends. So I've heard the Arab side of the story many times.


Youre talking about Arabs who dont lie down or compromise on matters like land occupation. Its not in their blood.

[K:theCore]

I just dont understand the Isreali position. They seem to think that going after terrorist elements is going to effect the situation there when in reality, its making it worse. They are oppressing the Palestinians and its making life very very cheap there.

Sure, the easy thing to ask here is what else are they going to do...are they suppose let these bastards continue to get away with suicide bombings?

But the Palestinians really dont have much to live for. To them, killing Jews is often times a more simpler and rewarding approach. And for every bombmaker or hammas, fatah, or islamic jihad leader killed, there are probably 10 more ready and willing to take his spot.

[the_13th_redneck]

So if killing a Hamas leader leads to even more violence, then what alternative do they really have?
When they gave Yassir Arafat a state of legitimacy and even gave places under Palestinian authority jurisdiction in hopes of perhaps handing over the Gaza strip and portions of the West Bank what happened was they used them as safe havens to launch attacks.
I think right now Israel wants to have an independent Palestine for Israel's sake but the main argument is how they're going to go about doing it, after all, Israel has its own hard liners who don't want to give away an inch. Unfortunately, even that may not bring about peace because ultimately the goal of one too many Palestinian groups is to drive Israel out into the sea.

The consequences are twofold really.
The more the Israelis attack the Palestinians, the more the Palestinians attack the Israelis. And the more the Palestinians attack the Israelis, the more the Israelis attack the Palestinians.
Any argument you have against the Israelis pretty much applies to the Palestinians. Just that with Yassir Arafat, he had a golden opportunity to show the world the Palestinian leadership was a legitimate, peace oriented organization and blew it.

[the_13th_redneck]

The Israeli position is this: They have to preserve Israel or be driven from their homeland yet again and they know they're not very popular in Europe or even the US. Or in Israel for that matter lol.
Anyways it's about survival. If they display weakness, that will bring even more fighters to the Palestinian cause and if that happens they can really be screwed.
Either way, every decision they make on this matter has the fate of their country hanging on it.
It's like South Korea in a way. If we make a mistake, that's it. There's no pulling out and press conferences and then overhauling the military to make sure we do better in the next war. It's over. And if VERY lucky we'll get another chance... but it's not worth taking that chance is it?

I just dont understand the Isreali position.

[K:theCore]

The more the Israelis attack the Palestinians, the more the Palestinians attack the Israelis. And the more the Palestinians attack the Israelis, the more the Israelis attack the Palestinians.
Any argument you have against the Israelis pretty much applies to the Palestinians. Just that with Yassir Arafat, he had a golden opportunity to show the world the Palestinian leadership was a legitimate, peace oriented organization and blew it.

It may seem like the Palestinians are bringing a knife to a gunfight, but they along with the rest of the Arab nations will succeed in ridding Isreal if this is Isreal's position.

They cant win this fight, and I dont care how badass their military is.

[yimmy]

The consequences are twofold really.
The more the Israelis attack the Palestinians, the more the Palestinians attack the Israelis. And the more the Palestinians attack the Israelis, the more the Israelis attack the Palestinians.
Any argument you have against the Israelis pretty much applies to the Palestinians. Just that with Yassir Arafat, he had a golden opportunity to show the world the Palestinian leadership was a legitimate, peace oriented organization and blew it.

It's a pretty sad scenario. It seems like there's no hope for peace in that region until one side finally annihilates the other. But it seems like the Israelis have a more tolerant society than the Arabs do. They don't persecute homosexuals, they allow religious freedom and women have more rights.

I'm not sure why all of the Arabs would want to antagonize a nuclear power though...

[the_13th_redneck]

Well as long as the Israeli state exists they win. So I don't see the Arabs winning this one because the Israelis are a hard bunch of people too. Not only hard but they generally are smarter when it comes to dealing with the situation. The Arab side has been cursed with lousy leadership and all the good leaders never or stopped advocating getting rid of Israel and have in fact recognized them (Anwar Sadat of Egypt and King Hussein of Jordan).
Hosni Mubarak, though no Sadat was also a pretty good leader, especially to regional standards and he wasn't really a gung ho let's go after Israel kind of guy either.

I think that tells us a lot about the situation.

[the_13th_redneck]

Not to mention, Israel is the only country in the middle east that currently gives Arabs the right to vote. That's actually quite a huge deal if you think about it.

On the Nuke thing, the Arabs don't care about Israel having a nuke because they know that the Israelis will probably only even consider using it when they're about to get completely overrun, and even then might not, for the sake of Jews living outside of Israel.

But yes, it is a sad scenario and unfortunately, the Arab intollerance has a LOT, if not most to do with how lousy the situation is right now. If really they settled for a co-existence compromise life would be better for everyone there. Don't worry about the Israeli hard liners... they don't have enough power and the general Israeli population would never vote in anyone who advocated a "NO!" policy on an independent Palestine.

It's a pretty sad scenario. It seems like there's no hope for peace in that region until one side finally annihilates the other. But it seems like the Israelis have a more tolerant society than the Arabs do. They don't persecute homosexuals, they allow religious freedom and women have more rights.

I'm not sure why all of the Arabs would want to antagonize a nuclear power though...

[K:theCore]

Well as long as the Israeli state exists they win. So I don't see the Arabs winning this one because the Israelis are a hard bunch of people too. Not only hard but they generally are smarter when it comes to dealing with the situation. The Arab side has been cursed with lousy leadership and all the good leaders never or stopped advocating getting rid of Israel and have in fact recognized them (Anwar Sadat of Egypt and King Hussein of Jordan).
Hosni Mubarak, though no Sadat was also a pretty good leader, especially to regional standards and he wasn't really a gung ho let's go after Israel kind of guy either.

I think that tells us a lot about the situation.

Nuke or no Nuke, if theres one thing I learned about watching that video its that there are a WHOLE lot of desperate Arab fanatics out there who dont give a shiet anymore.

I have a friend who's lived in Isreal before. He says theyre an extremely tough bunch.

But can they outlast the Arabs in this pissing contest and continue to watch civilians being blown to shreds on buses or at cafes?

No way.