goalie [dis]possession

[njref]

Jim Allen discussion on Goalie Dispossession:

" USSF AMENDED answer (September 8, 2004)(was August 4, 2004):
* * *
Since FIFA officially published [the new Q&As] on July 1, it becomes effective immediately world-wide and we are all obliged to officiate in accordance with our understanding of its guidelines. USSF is in the process of seeking clarification from FIFA regarding several of the new interpretations and, when we are clear about them, it is likely that there will be an announcement to assist referees in understanding what is new in the 2004 version. Where this means changes in Advice to Referees, we will include that information as well.

Meanwhile, our understanding of the provisions you have identified is that the ball is playable by an opponent at the moment the ball hits the ground when the goalkeeper has obviously released it, but not if the goalkeeper is in the process of actively distributing the ball. The ball is playable by an opponent attempting to head it if the ball is being held in the open hand of the goalkeeper, but not if the goalkeeper is in the process of distributing the ball. However, in either case, the opponent's action must not be dangerous."

Thus it appears that the USSF is still mulling over if the right to disposess the GK of the ball is limited to heading balls out of the GK open hand or goes further. For example, can a player kick the ball when the GK has the ball pinned to the ground? Also, in a subtle way, the Allen discussion seems to differ from the FIFA Q&A by requiring that even heading the ball out of the GK hand not be dangerous, while the FIFA Q&A seems to say that such an action IS NOT dangerous.

I don't believe that allowing challenges to a GK holding the ball is a good idea. Even if it can happen without incident in a small number of cases, the potential for havoc is great.

[Crowdie]

Thus it appears that the USSF is still mulling over if the right to disposess the GK of the ball is limited to heading balls out of the GK open hand or goes further. For example, can a player kick the ball when the GK has the ball pinned to the ground?

No.


Also, in a subtle way, the Allen discussion seems to differ from the FIFA Q&A by requiring that even heading the ball out of the GK hand not be dangerous, while the FIFA Q&A seems to say that such an action IS NOT dangerous.

There is no obsolute answer as you have to call each situation on its merits. If you feel the forward's actions are dangerous then call it otherwise let play continue.

I don't believe that allowing challenges to a GK holding the ball is a good idea. Even if it can happen without incident in a small number of cases, the potential for havoc is great.

I agree but we only enforce the laws not create them.

[HoldenMan]

Essentially, what's the difference between kicking the ball out of the keeper's hands when it's pinned between a hand and the ground, and heading it out of his hand, assuming they're both done in a safe manner?

[Statesman]

Essentially, what's the difference between kicking the ball out of the keeper's hands when it's pinned between a hand and the ground, and heading it out of his hand, assuming they're both done in a safe manner?

There's a greater chance of kicking the keeper over hurting him with your head.

[nsa]

Essentially, what's the difference between kicking the ball out of the keeper's hands when it's pinned between a hand and the ground, and heading it out of his hand, assuming they're both done in a safe manner?
Hold your hand out and let me hit it with my head.

Now, hold your hand out and let me kick the living sh!t out of it.

Any difference? :)

[Crowdie]

Essentially, what's the difference between kicking the ball out of the keeper's hands when it's pinned between a hand and the ground, and heading it out of his hand, assuming they're both done in a safe manner?

The danger to the keeper. When the ball has downward pressure on it forcing it onto the ground and an attacker tries to kick it out from underneath you there is a serious risk to the keeper. When a keeper places his/her hand underneath the ball and has no downward presssure with another hand holding the ball in place then it is very easy for an attacker to nudge the ball out of the keeper's possession without even touching the keeper.

[Statesman]

I think a lot of the confusion over the decision is because the question makes it sound like a keeper just has this ball in his hand, walking around. When this decision comes into play is on crosses and corners into the penalty area, when the keeper is struggling to control the ball and an attacker is coming in as well. The attacker heads the ball out of the keeper's outreached hand. Within context it actually makes quite a bit of sense.

[HoldenMan]

Aargh.......

I said "Assuming it's done in a safe manner"!!

I am aware there are more risks involved with kicking as opposed to heading. Obviously if contact is made it's a FK, or if it's done in a dangerous manner it's an IFK.

The context of the question was what if it's done in a perfectly safe manner (as is quite possible)?

In line with Statesman's previous response, I've always considered the ball to be playable if the keeper doesn't yet clearly have it in his possession, or even if the challenge is made at the same time the keeper's going for the ball and it's knocked out of his hands a split second after he catches it - that seems to be the way the players like it as well.


I think a lot of confusion also comes from that fact that the new Q&A makes reference to 'full control', whereas according to the law any touch by the arm renders it 'under control' - the law makes no reference to full or partial control but the Q&A appears to be introducing a new concept contradictory to the LOAF

[Crowdie]

I like to think of it this way - if the keeper has two points of control then the ball is his/hers otherwise the ball is fair game. A point of control can consist of:

* Any part of the body - so holding the ball in two hands would be two points of control
* The ground - so having any part of your body applying downward pressure on the ball would be two points of control

I've always considered the ball to be playable if the keeper doesn't yet clearly have it in his possession, or even if the challenge is made at the same time the keeper's going for the ball and it's knocked out of his hands a split second after he catches it - that seems to be the way the players like it as well.

Great point.

[njref]

I like to think of it this way - if the keeper has two points of control then the ball is his/hers otherwise the ball is fair game. A point of control can consist of:

* Any part of the body - so holding the ball in two hands would be two points of control
* The ground - so having any part of your body applying downward pressure on the ball would be two points of control



Decision 2 for Law 12 says that the GK has control of the ball if the GK is touching it with any part of their hand or arm.

So, why should the ball be playable when a GK holds it in 1 hand and not when the GK holds it in 2 hands? Either way, the GK has "control."

The implication of the poorly explained FIFA Q&A is that GK control does not mean that the ball is not playable. Instead, the "new" rule FIFA appears to be going towards looking to whether a particular play on the GK's ball is dangerous.

I thought the old rule was clear: GK control means lay off. The apparent new rule means try to play the ball and hope the ref doesn't see it or thinks the play is not dangerous. The liklihood of a goal if the play works provides a great incentive to try to dispossess the GK.

In my opinion, the new rule will result in GKs getting hurt because attackers will be tempted to do stupid things due to the ambiguity and "ITOOTR" nature of the rule. I hope I am wrong and this is not where FIFA is going.

[Crowdie]

I thought the old rule was clear: GK control means lay off.

The old rule was certainly much clearer for the players and the keeper in particular.

[HoldenMan]

Yeah, that kinda goes back to my point - the new Q&A has created a lot of confusion by contradicting the LOAF and introducing concepts of partial and full control, which under the LOAF are nonexistent. I seriously wonder if they actually proofreaded the Q&A.

However, there is nothing in the laws to prevent a player dispossessing the keeper of the ball (unless it falls under 'preventing the keeper from releasing')


But, above all, never forget that we can always penalise the attacker for dangerous play, or for one of the penal fouls, and if it's particularly dangerous then a card. Any attacker should know that if they make a dodgy challenge on the keeper than to expect a card.

[njref]

Yeah, that kinda goes back to my point - the new Q&A has created a lot of confusion by contradicting the LOAF and introducing concepts of partial and full control, which under the LOAF are nonexistent. I seriously wonder if they actually proofreaded the Q&A. [quote]

Agreed!

[quote] However, there is nothing in the laws to prevent a player dispossessing the keeper of the ball (unless it falls under 'preventing the keeper from releasing') [quote]


I agree. But what does decision 2 under law 12 mean when it defines GK control? This decision is just "out there." I had understood this to mean that you could not challenge a GK "in control" of the ball. Which is a nice clean easy to understand rule.

If this is not the rule, then decision 2 is meaningless and should be deleted. And we now have only the limit on dangerous play, which is ITOOTR, ambiguous, and will lead to players testing the limits of what is dangerous.

[quote] But, above all, never forget that we can always penalise the attacker for dangerous play, or for one of the penal fouls, and if it's particularly dangerous then a card. Any attacker should know that if they make a dodgy challenge on the keeper than to expect a card.

Are the following legal plays if not done in a dangerous manner ITOOTR:

deftly tapping the ball out from under the GK hand when the GK is on the ground?

Or just a slow shove or pull on the ball with your foot, with lots of leverage?

A reasonable shoulder challenge or bumping the GK so the GK and ball go over the goal line?

Heading the ball after the GK catches it in 2 hands away from their body?

[colins1993]

Why does FIFA keep tinkering with the laws or the interpretation of them?

As a former keeper I smell trouble on this one and forsee plenty of flashpoints. I will instruct my young keepers to hold the ball with both hands tightly against their body after they gain possesion, even when they are in a vertical position from here on out.

And as a ref this will take great restraint by me NOT to whistle if the ball is kicked/headed out of a keeper's hands in a non-dangerous way (and this indeed is possible if the keeper is only holding the ball with one hand).