Offside or not?

[goodduck]

The senario is:
There are one goal keeper, one defender, one center forward and one wing.
The wing dribbled the ball to the goal line very fast in one side of the field. Then he pretended to pass the ball to the center, but actually stopped the ball, the defender was cheated and wanted to shovel the ball, but he missed it. Since the grass was very slippery, the defender went over the goalline.
When the wing passed the ball to the center forward, the center was in front of the ball and the defender hasn't come back to the field yet.
So is it an offside?

[ur_land]

Not offside. This is from the latest US Soccer Advice to Referees (kind of a guide to help explain the rules). It's availabile in a pdf on ussoccer.com):


A defender who leaves the field during the course of play and does not immediately return must still be
considered in determining where the second to last defender is for the purpose of judging which
attackers are in an offside position. Such a defender is considered to be on the touch line or goal line
closest to his off-field position. A defender who leaves the field with the referee’s permission (and who
thus requires the referee’s permission to return) is not included in determining offside position.

Edit: Of course, in this case the second-to-last defender would probably be the keeper. So if the forward isn't past the keeper, then it's not offside.

[jkc313]

assuming the keeper is still between the center forward and the goal, no offside

[Laggard]

Being that this is my first year officiating, I still have a problem with prematurely raising the flag for offsides calls when if I'd waited for a second no advantage would have developed and no flag would have been needed.

Yesterday I called an offsides as soon as the offensive player received a pass from his teammate. Before the center could stop play, the player screwed up and kicked the ball over the goal line. Center then saw my raised flag and called for an IDK. The end result was an IDK instead of a goal kick which wasn't a huge deal because the ball would have been placed in almost the same position if it had been a GK.

Should the center have just ignored my flag and called for a goal kick?

[Gary V]

//snipped// Yesterday I called an offsides as soon as the offensive player received a pass from his teammate. Before the center could stop play, the player screwed up and kicked the ball over the goal line. ...
Should the center have just ignored my flag and called for a goal kick?Since the attacking player touched the ball, all considerations for offside are clearly met, and the offside call should be made. It does make a minor difference - a goal kick is direct and there can be no offside on the ensuing play, whereas for the offside call it's indirect, and offside does again apply. Also, in the youth leagues, goal kicks are usually substitution opportunities where offside calls are not.

Where the ref would wave off the call is if the ball ended up going to a defender, especially the keeper. Most teams would rather have their keeper punt instead of an IFK. Also, if there's no reason to stop the game - nothing to be gained by it - it's better to keep the game going.

[HeadHunter]

with the caveat that waving down the flag might create the impression amoung the players that the center and the AR are not on the same page. Given the circumstances, this might be a cost that you wouldn't want to incurr just to keep play flowing. On the other hand, if you have a steady experienced crew and/or the players aren't questioning your calls you might wave it off.

[Laggard]

Thanks for the replies.

I understand the substitution difference. The IDK/DK difference doesn't seem all that huge though since these were U13 girls who usually have trouble kicking the ball out of the penalty area on a GK.

[soccertim]

Since the attacking player touched the ball, all considerations for offside are clearly met, and the offside call should be made. It does make a minor difference - a goal kick is direct and there can be no offside on the ensuing play, whereas for the offside call it's indirect, and offside does again apply. Also, in the youth leagues, goal kicks are usually substitution opportunities where offside calls are not.

I know that there's no offside on a goal kick, but that's not true of direct free kicks in general, is it?

[tmaker]

I know that there's no offside on a goal kick, but that's not true of direct free kicks in general, is it?

No, it isn't. Only goal kicks, corner kicks and throw-ins are exempt from offside (and the dropped ball special circumstance).

[Laggard]

I have a problem with prematurely raising the offsides flag. Today I made an effort to see what developed before I called offsides.

A blue player was an an obviously offsides position when the ball was kicked past her. It didn't look like she was going to get to the ball so I didn't raise the flag. The ball then rolled to the keeper who subsequently mishandled the ball allowing the blue player a kick on goal.

Afterwards the other AR mentioned that at the point where the blue player touched the mishandled ball I should have called offsides.

I think he's right. Opinions?

[Gary V]

A blue player was an an obviously offsides position when the ball was kicked past her. It didn't look like she was going to get to the ball so I didn't raise the flag. Good decision.

The ball then rolled to the keeper who subsequently mishandled the ball allowing the blue player a kick on goal.

Afterwards the other AR mentioned that at the point where the blue player touched the mishandled ball I should have called offsides.

I think he's right. Opinions?Might be, might not be.

JA is fond of saying that the Laws are not made to save a player from her own mistakes. So if it was only the keeper's mistake that allowed the (formerly) offside-positioned opponent to get the ball, I wouldn't call it.

However, if that player was rushing the keeper's play on the ball, possibly causing fluster and the subsequent mishandling, then that player has gained an advantage from her offside position - and then I would call it.

[MassachusettsRef]

Good decision.

Might be, might not be.

JA is fond of saying that the Laws are not made to save a player from her own mistakes. So if it was only the keeper's mistake that allowed the (formerly) offside-positioned opponent to get the ball, I wouldn't call it.

However, if that player was rushing the keeper's play on the ball, possibly causing fluster and the subsequent mishandling, then that player has gained an advantage from her offside position - and then I would call it.Have to disagree and say that this is a clear case of offside and that the attacker has gained an advantage whether or not she 'caused the keeper to flustered'.

The player was able to capitalize on the goalkeeper's mistake because she was initially in an offside position (ie, closer to the goal line than the second to last defender). Had she not been in such a position, perhaps a defender would have got there before her. The fact is, unless the goalkeeper actually possessed the ball and then released it, the attacker was never "played onside" (in other words, she's not "formerly" offside--she was still in an offside position when the ball was last played by a teammate) and has to be penalized for gaining an advantage from being in an offside position.

[Gary V]

Have to disagree and say that this is a clear case of offside and that the attacker has gained an advantage whether or not she 'caused the keeper to flustered'.

The player was able to capitalize on the goalkeeper's mistake because she was initially in an offside position (ie, closer to the goal line than the second to last defender).
And that's a valid opinion as well. We'd really have to be there to see it, to determine if there was keeper possession which would reset the offside. As I read the scenario, the ball "rolled to the keeper" and she then flubbed it. "Rolled" implied to me that it wasn't a shot. My decision would hinge on whether I saw control or not before the "flub". If I would have penalized her for a second touch, then offside had been reset. If there was no control, then no reset and the player is offside.

Edit: As I rethink this, I'm moving closer to MassRef's position. I recall the phrase in Advice to Referees about "immediately capitalize on an opponent's mistake" being a definition for offside involvement. The important point is whether there was goalkeeper control, not who caused the flub.

[Laggard]

The ball that the keeper tried to pick up was the pass that flew past her offside opponent.

The keeper tried to pick the ball up but dropped it roughly a half second after it was in her hands. I would say that she had control of the ball before losing it.

The way I saw it is the same as MassachusettsRef. If the offsides player had not been in the position she was, the dropped ball would not have even been an issue as there was no other offensive player in a position to go after it.

[GKbenji]

When I am the CR, I want my AR to flag this. I tell them in the pregame that even if it looks like the offside might be "negated" by the keeper or a defender getting the ball first, pop the flag if there's involvement by the attacker. I will reserve the right to wave down the flag if the keeper or defender cleanly control the ball. If something odd happens, like the keeper flubs the pickup and the attacker pounces, we go with the flag.

[superdave]

This actually happened in a Dortmund match last year...against Bayern Munich, I'm 90% sure. (Does search, can't find the thread....) OK, maybe it was two seasons ago, cuz it didn't show up in my search. Actually, I think it was, because I think Lehman was the Dortmund GK.

In that case, the defender was coming back to the field at pretty much the same exact instant as the final pass was made.

The play was ruled onside, and the Dortmund players went nuts. The BD keeper got a second yellow, for dissent, and Jan Koller had to stretch on a goalie shirt. Hilarious stuff. The camera crew and German announcers clearly didn't know the rule, because of the way they kept going over the replay in super slo-mo. I mean, if you know that a defender going over the endline doesn't erase him as a defender for the purposes of offside, you wouldn't obsess over the replays. (They even did a "magnifying circle around the defender's foot" as the last pass was made.)

I started a thread about it here, and it was great stuff. What was most interesting is that once explained, it's obvious...you can't let a defender jump off the field and create an offside. But it was also obvious that the BD players didn't know the rule, which IMO is inexcusable, given the stakes.

[Crowdie]

The keeper tried to pick the ball up but dropped it roughly a half second after it was in her hands. I would say that she had control of the ball before losing it.

I would disagree. I wouldn't class that as the keeper controlling the ball so the offside wouldn't be negated.

[njref]

I have a similar story -

In one game that I centered, the AR popped the flag while the GK was waiting to catch the pass and the striker was bearing down on him. In my brilliant wisdom I decided to let the GK catch it so he could punt it (which he did much better than his team kicked), so of course the GK dropped the pass, the striker scored, the GK was injured in the collision diving for the ball he dropped, and THEN I blew the whistle for offsides.

In retrospect my AR did it right, I did not - should have played it safe and whistled the offsides before the ball got to the GK.

I learned a lesson and the GK got a sore head. Another 2-3 thousand such lessons and I will be a sound official and the medical insurance rates in the US will go up another 1%.

[IASocFan]

I have a similar story -

In one game that I centered, the AR popped the flag while the GK was waiting to catch the pass and the striker was bearing down on him. In my brilliant wisdom I decided to let the GK catch it so he could punt it (which he did much better than his team kicked), the keeper caught the ball and punted to a streaking forward who scored.

In retrospect my AR did it right, I did too. I didn't play it safe and rewarded attacking soccer.

I learned a lesson and the GK got an assist.

Strangely enough, my story from yesterday. U12 select boys. :)