2006 Stadia

[arthur d]

I won't call him a neo-nazi - there is no proof for this AFAIK. Still he is not just romantic or likes old-fashioned traditions. He admitted that he supports far right-wing parties like "Republikaner", whose founder died some days ago and till his last breath denied the holocaust (and talked about his time in Waffen-SS).

Regarding PileD: I think he is either too stupid or too often drunk to understand what he is writing.....and yes, I'll take the yellow card.

I agree. I wouldn't go as far as Neonazi, but GS is a right wing nationalist (I did discuss the party program of the Republikaner with him once, so I know what I am talking about here). Of course, if you transplanted him straight over to Texas he might not appear so extreme anymore. Some (American) posters over in the politics forum are far more extreme, it's just that we Germans tend to be more sensitive (on average). This makes me happy to have been educated in Germany.

About PileD: I wouldn't card him (yet), but he's been trying hard to get one recently.

[scorpio81]

Sorry about carrying on with the o/t stuff, but I really like this post. You simply can't be proud for something you haven't contributed to. I don't really want to go through all this again, but there are some posts about this in the Teen Twin Nazis thread in the politics forum.


yes, indeed it is arthur... im glad i wasnt alone in complimenting it... i went to a very philosophical school that discouraged competition and comparison with others and for the most part, try to live my life that way... but unfortunately, only a small fraction of the world thinks the same way and some of that has rubbed off on me, especially after having spent my last few years in capitalist america...

it really did warm my heart to read something like that, because i was slowly beginning to lose belief in that school of thought (not just related to politics, obv)
to most others today, i come from a very radical background in terms of my upbringing and education so it helps to know of others that feel similarly...




EDIT: couldnt find this thread you mentioned - care to provide a link?

[96Squig]

EDIT: couldnt find this thread you mentioned - care to provide a link?
Thanks for your support you guys ;-)
link to the thread: http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=230093&page=1&pp=15

[Alex_K]

link to the thread: http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=230093&page=1&pp=15

Ah, yes. I remember reading this thread and thinking "this thread sucks".

And for what it's worth: I see nationalism of any kind as being bad by definition. There isn't and has never been such a thing as "good nationalism".

[footyfan1]

got to agree with Alex here.
And btw I don't think I could be proud of being a German. Maybe you could try and read 'Deutschland du Opfer'.


I'm not going into the rest of what's been posted here. I'll just say I find it amazing.

I just wanted to ask 96Squig why he doesn't think he can be proud of being German.

I think all Germans have reason to be proud to be German just for what Germany has given the world before and after "The War".

I'm proud to say my children are half-German and that I consider Germany my "second home".

Do I think Germany has problems as a society? Yes, but show me someone who doesn't. Just about every place has their far-right extremists and far-left extremists.

It's just that Germany's far-right extremists instill fear in the rest of the world that Nazism will rise again. I don't see where that's unfair, that's just fact.

I also don't think the entire country can or should be defined by that time or these people.

I think the majority of us are somewhere in the middle of this mess trying to make heads or tails of all of it as we try to make the best out of our lives.

I really hate to see any German not proud of their heritage. Germany has given the world a hell of a lot more than the Nazi Party.

Just my 2 cents.....

[The Old Lady Hertha]

And for what it's worth: I see nationalism of any kind as being bad by definition. There isn't and has never been such a thing as "good nationalism".

So rooting for the German NT in the World Cup is a bad thing?

Sure it's a sporting event, but I think rooting for your own COUNTRY's national team is a form of nationalism.

Also just my 2 cents.

[footyfan1]

So rooting for the German NT in the World Cup is a bad thing?

Sure it's a sporting event, but I think rooting for your own COUNTRY's national team is a form of nationalism.

Also just my 2 cents.


I don't think you are understanding Alex. I think what you describe is the lowest level of nationalism. I think what Alex is talking about is those who think they are superior to others simply because of where they were born. Or those who think they were born "better" than people born in certain other places.

And there's plenty of that all over the world.

In football, I think you are essentially saying "Our boys are a better team than your boys."

Then you do have the FOOLS in the stadium or around it who think they are better because of where they were born or who they support.

They are called "hooligans"........ ;)

[The Old Lady Hertha]

Ah, yes. I remember reading this thread and thinking "this thread sucks".

And for what it's worth: I see nationalism of any kind as being bad by definition. There isn't and has never been such a thing as "good nationalism".

I think I agree with you, but until Alex chimes in, I won't be too sure.

But he did say ANY kind of nationalism. When I hear, any, even little things pop into my mind.

Nationalism comes in many forms and many vices. Fussball is one of them. It's just too many people take it too seriously and thats how hooliganism can happen.

It's just a game.

[footyfan1]

I think I agree with you, but until Alex chimes in, I won't be too sure.

But he did say ANY kind of nationalism. When I hear, any, even little things pop into my mind.

Yes, but there, I think you were being a bit nitpicky.


Nationalism comes in many forms and many vices. Fussball is one of them. It's just too many people take it too seriously and thats how hooliganism can happen.

It's just a game.


Not to the nationalists........ :cool:

[scorpio81]

I'm not going into the rest of what's been posted here. I'll just say I find it amazing.

I just wanted to ask 96Squig why he doesn't think he can be proud of being German.

I think all Germans have reason to be proud to be German just for what Germany has given the world before and after "The War".

I'm proud to say my children are half-German and that I consider Germany my "second home".

Do I think Germany has problems as a society? Yes, but show me someone who doesn't. Just about every place has their far-right extremists and far-left extremists.

It's just that Germany's far-right extremists instill fear in the rest of the world that Nazism will rise again. I don't see where that's unfair, that's just fact.

I also don't think the entire country can or should be defined by that time or these people.

I think the majority of us are somewhere in the middle of this mess trying to make heads or tails of all of it as we try to make the best out of our lives.

I really hate to see any German not proud of their heritage. Germany has given the world a hell of a lot more than the Nazi Party.

Just my 2 cents.....


youre missing the point raised by arthurd and 96squig (and alexK, i gather)...

what have you, or your children achieved or contributed towards german achievements, to be so proud of? why should you be proud of your 'countrymens' achievements over that of any others? for eg, my ancestors gave the world the number 'zero'... am i proud of it? not really... how can i take pride in others achievements especially since it was centuries ago? my people also gave the world buddhism... are these certain things that i should bleat on about and reach back to all the time? i dont think so, cos i contributed nothing to it, and possibly have no connection to the people who did other than the country of birth, which is just a label given out by society... something ive never been too fond of...

what i find most hilarious is how so many americans come out and celebrate 'st patricks day' and say they are proud to be irish just cos they have a trace of irish lineage... really, why should you be so proud of something you never contributed to and possibly know next to nothing about?



what exactly makes you so proud to say your kids are 'half-german'? im really curious? imo, youre just differentiating your kids from others by virtue of their place of birth... i dunno if thats really healthy... its analogous to differentiating yourself from others according to the colour of your skin - which is also known as racism...

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

i agree with eveything there except for the last paragraph. I am no nationalism guy but i still do understand that there are monumental differences between "nationalism" and "racism" which you seemed to try and twist into one thing. I repeat, i myself am not nationalist(i sway to the left) but i still don't look at the "other side" that simply.

And on a sidenote, German doesn't necessarily mean white - i think a lot of 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants as well as Gerald Asamoah would agree with me there ;)

[scorpio81]

i didnt say nationalism is the same as racism... i said it has the potential to have the same unhealthy effects of racism... some of which we are already seeing...


also, didnt Oscar Wilde say, "Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious."?

[Honore de Ballsac]

96 squig -
I think the sensitivity and frustration you express is common if not typical in the US, and I assume elsewhere. But there must be other boards for this discussion, or PM's.

This is a pretty useful location for a thread truly dedicated to 2006 stadia.

{P.S. You can always watch better movies like the old Solaris for a more enlightened, less finite handling of the "relative value of life." PM me and let me know what you think.}

[Honore de Ballsac]

what i find most hilarious is how so many americans come out and celebrate 'st patricks day' and say they are proud to be irish just cos they have a trace of irish lineage... really, why should you be so proud of something you never contributed to and possibly know next to nothing about?


I'm getting sucked in here, but every situation is different and maybe you should read up on this one a bit more, or check out a different perspective. Hyphenated Irishmen are celebrating the survival of the Irish DNA in their bodies and their culture.

[Alex_K]

I think I agree with you, but until Alex chimes in, I won't be too sure.

But he did say ANY kind of nationalism. When I hear, any, even little things pop into my mind.

Nationalism comes in many forms and many vices. Fussball is one of them. It's just too many people take it too seriously and thats how hooliganism can happen.

It's just a game.

There is a thin line that seperates patriotism and nationalism (there may be a difference in use of those words in German and English (this isn't meant sarcastic at all, just to make sure that I'm not misunderstood), but in German those two words refer to different things.

Nationalism and Chauvinism, which themselves are basically a product of the 19th century, always include the feeling of supperiority and easily lead into hatred.

Patriotism on the other hand is something I actually do not see as something bad per se. I think it's incredibly silly to wave paper flags. But I don't see it as doing harm in this form - and I actually can not say that I'm free of any feeling of patriotism. I highly appreciate German history, language and culture - I wouldn't say I'm proud of it though. I'm sure, if I was, let's say, Dutch I would have the same feeling for the Netherlands (on the other hand, I'm definitely not ashamed to be German as well). I actually get angry about the way Germany is portrayed sometimes. Personally I hate travelling and am pretty provincial usually. But I don't feel any superiority over others or their culture based on this. And I think that the French national anthem is pretty cool, despite the fact it's about killing Germans :D.

I see no problem in rooting for the National team. But once you start hating the others it gets bad. Soccer fans, as you used this as an example, can be pretty disgusting sometimes.

[Alex_K]

I am no nationalism guy but i still do understand that there are monumental differences between "nationalism" and "racism" which you seemed to try and twist into one thing. I

Nationalism, Chauvinism (I'm using the originally of the word here, not the Feminist one), Imperialism, and Fascism go pretty much hand in hand. They are not the same, but usually they are closely linked to each other.

[pepper96]

yes, i agree and suppose that these thing have the same historical background. i think that they are based (more or less)on the falsification of rousseau.

[benztown]

I'm not going into the rest of what's been posted here. I'll just say I find it amazing.

I just wanted to ask 96Squig why he doesn't think he can be proud of being German.

I think all Germans have reason to be proud to be German just for what Germany has given the world before and after "The War".

I'm proud to say my children are half-German and that I consider Germany my "second home".

Do I think Germany has problems as a society? Yes, but show me someone who doesn't. Just about every place has their far-right extremists and far-left extremists.

It's just that Germany's far-right extremists instill fear in the rest of the world that Nazism will rise again. I don't see where that's unfair, that's just fact.

I also don't think the entire country can or should be defined by that time or these people.

I think the majority of us are somewhere in the middle of this mess trying to make heads or tails of all of it as we try to make the best out of our lives.

I really hate to see any German not proud of their heritage. Germany has given the world a hell of a lot more than the Nazi Party.

Just my 2 cents.....

I agree with you. I think you can very well be proud of your country because you are a product of the same society that brought forth a lot of great achievements. I am proud of my parents and my granparents and so on, even though for the longest time of their lives I wasen't even born. And even though I have absolutely no affiliation to for example Einstein, I'm still proud, that he was German. I am proud, that the society that my ancestors contributed to and that now I am contributing to was able to bring forth such a Genius. Just as I am ashamed, that the same society elected and supported Hitler.

On the other hand, it is hard for someone who was not born and raised in Germany to understand this German dilemma. Because of our history we are all taught from the beginning how horrible nationalism is and anything that is conected to it. This leads to the general opinion in Germany that you not only shouldn't be proud of your country, but that you simply can't. Personally I think that the Germans are going too far on this issue, just as I think the Americans are also too extreme in their patriotism.

Another problem I see with this "anti-patriotic" atmosphere in Germany is that you'll sometimes see nationalism with a left twist. People who think they are morally superior e.g. to Americans because they believe that they found the only acceptable truth (basically "We know that no nationality is better than the other and since you don't seem to get that, we're better than you"). The fact that this completely contradicts itself doesn't seem to bother them.

[Honore de Ballsac]

Another problem I see with this "anti-patriotic" atmosphere in Germany is that you'll sometimes see nationalism with a left twist. People who think they are morally superior e.g. to Americans because they believe that they found the only acceptable truth (basically "We know that no nationality is better than the other and since you don't seem to get that, we're better than you"). The fact that this completely contradicts itself doesn't seem to bother them.

Yeah but I'll take it. Nowadays Germans are awesome, in spite and because of having to deal with this stigma.

[Dead Fingers]

My bad, I have been busy with work and have not had the time to read all of the threads the last couple days. It looks like this one took on a life of its own.

Lets get back to "Stadia" folks.