At a tournament this weekend....

[BentwoodBlue]

So I went to New Jersey for the first time this past weekend. On a side note, when they say that NJ smells, they were not lying. :)
Anyway, normally I referee U15's thru Adults. For this tournament I was given a bunch of U10 and U11 solos. (Refreshing change) Let me just say, that at this level I have never given a card. Generally a word to the players is plenty. Until now that is.. 10 matches and I gave 2 yellows and a red. (what have we come to?)
Very first match. U11 girls. 5 mins into the match. Foul against team A. Team A player runs up to the ball and unties her shoe and begins to retie it. I let her know she is breaking the rules and she immediately retreats. She got the point. 10 minutes later another foul different girl does the same thing. I tell her to get back and then I say loud enough for the coach to hear that the next girl that does it will be carded. (A coach barks in the distance...) Sure enough in the second half it happens again. Yellow, no questions asked.. The coach then yells loud enough for the TD to hear that his precious little girl did nothing wrong. Ok fine, it stopped so he got the point. Little girl was crying though and I hate that. But I blame the coach. After the match the parent of the little girl actually thanked me for carding her and told me the coach actually teaches that crap in practice. /sigh
Very next mach, U11 boys. Green player tries to impede the throw in. I whistle and talk to him and give him a warning. (I know it is a mandatory, but I chose to ignore it. My mistake) Later in the match he does the same thing to the keeper. Yellow. He sees the card, I ask him what his last name is and he says, "I'm not f***ing telling you. **************." Talk about being totally caught off guard. You know when it takes a couple seconds for it to actually register what someone says to you... Needless to say his tournament was over.
2 matches, and I was in a head spin.. Thankfully my next 8 matches over the weekend went smoothly.

[Ref Flunkie]

LOL, I had to laugh at the last part of the story. I know it is sad, but I love putting kids like that in their place. I really don't have a problem with you not giving a card on the impeding the throw in, because typically, kids at that age just don't know any better, and usually telling them they can't do that solves the problem. However, since he did it again to the keeper, he obviously knew what he was doing, and you rightly gave him a card. Honestly, if an 11 year old said "I'm not F'ing telling you", I would have probably broke out laughing as I pulled out my red card. This comes from being a single, 27 year old without kids. Of course if I had kids that age I'm sure I would have been shocked and appauled.

[vabeacher]

That must have been a local kid from Joisey. Seriously, Jersey got a bad rep about industrial smells. There are many beautiful part of the state.

I have a similar question. At what age group do most referees start giving out cards? I frequently referee U10/11 matches and have never handed out a card. However, I have never been confronted with instances like the ones in this thread, which would absolutely warrant cards.

I was a spectator at one of my kids' U11 tournament games this weekend. A situation came up where one of the kids had a breakaway. He fakes the keeper, touches the ball past the keeper, and runs by the keeper. All the keeper can do is tackle the attacker from behind. And I don't mean a going for the ball soccer tackle; this was a full American football tackle with both arms around the attacker's waist. In an older age group I would have said automatic red card for denying an obvious goal scoring oppurtunity, and awarded a PK. The referee at this game awarded the PK but said nothing to the keeper. Had I been the ref, I would at the very least have told the keeper that this should have been a red card situation. One of the dads from the other team jokingly called for a card and we had a discussion about it afterwards, but never came to an agreement as to what age do yellow/red cards become called for. Luckily this happened very late in a one-side game with the penalized team about to be eliminated, so even a red card would not have had an impact on future games.

[Monarch Bay Beachbum]

That must have been a local kid from Joisey. Seriously, Jersey got a bad rep about industrial smells. There are many beautiful part of the state.

I have a similar question. At what age group do most referees start giving out cards? I frequently referee U10/11 matches and have never handed out a card. However, I have never been confronted with instances like the ones in this thread, which would absolutely warrant cards.

I was a spectator at one of my kids' U11 tournament games this weekend. A situation came up where one of the kids had a breakaway. He fakes the keeper, touches the ball past the keeper, and runs by the keeper. All the keeper can do is tackle the attacker from behind. And I don't mean a going for the ball soccer tackle; this was a full American football tackle with both arms around the attacker's waist. In an older age group I would have said automatic red card for denying an obvious goal scoring oppurtunity, and awarded a PK. The referee at this game awarded the PK but said nothing to the keeper. Had I been the ref, I would at the very least have told the keeper that this should have been a red card situation. One of the dads from the other team jokingly called for a card and we had a discussion about it afterwards, but never came to an agreement as to what age do yellow/red cards become called for. Luckily this happened very late in a one-side game with the penalized team about to be eliminated, so even a red card would not have had an impact on future games.
Curious that you are Va Beacher, as we had a situation in a tourney there. We were U-9 playing in a U-10 bracket. Our player had a breakaway with a one on one with the keeper. Our player's touch got away from him and the keeeper beat him to the ball. The keeper however muffed the ball. When he went to dive on it our player poked it away from him and scored. The ref ran in and gave our player a Red card. Obviously the ref thought the keeper still had a touch on the ball. I still thought that was rather harsh. Especially considering the player was just 7 years old.

Conversely, two years later, we were playing in NCSL U-11 game in Herndon, VA. We were awarded a direct kick from outside the 18. Our player shot it to the upper right corner of the goal. The Herndon fullback that was positioned on the post leaped up and with his right hand over his head slapped the ball up in to the air. As the ball was falling back to the ground, and the goal, he punched it out of the box. The ref came in and ordered a pk, but no card. I questioned him about it at the half. (I know, not the best time.) The ref stated that he did not like to card kids at this age because they were just learning. I informed the ref that the Herndon team received no penalty from stopping a goal with their hand. The only "learning" that occurred was that the kid was being rewarded for cheating. Of course we missed the pk. Herndon immediately scored to tie the game 1-1 at the half. They won 2-1 in the 2nd half. We of course got no calls at all from the ref because we dared to question him.

[BentwoodBlue]

Most tournaments are better than rec league teams.
I say card away. They really need to learn. As for me and what they teach here. In rec league they say keep cards in your pocket and only use if absolutely necessary at the U10 level. At U11 and above card away.
In this case as you describe as much as I hate to do it he would have gotten his marching orders. If the keeper thinks his chances are better at saving a penalty whats to say he won't do it again.

[gildarkevin]

I've carded in a U-11 rec type game before. A long ball was sent in toward the right side of the field. Keeper comes out but is beaten to it by the attacker who pushes it my him, very much toward the corner flag. The keeper slides in, takes the attacker out.

I didn't think it was a red card, because the ball was really moving toward the corner flag and would have presented a very difficult finish from that spot at that age and skill level -- not what I'd call an "obvious" goal scoring opportunity.

Still, it was apparent that the keeper could have pulled out of the tackle, if he wanted to. I had also deduced early on that this kid (hispanic, for what it's worth) was pretty savvy about the game, more so than your common rec league player. I issued a yellow card, and, actually, he had no problem with it. He put a hand up in acknowledgement and got on with the game -- almost like he knew what he was doing, so I didn't feel all that bad.

I once almost booked a U-11 for diving, probably should have, because he WAS diving to gain calls, most definitely. But that's another story.

[Gary V]

I've red carded a U10 player (travel) once, for stomping his opponent. At that age, I tend to believe you only really need to address violence.

As far as a young keeper gridiron-style tackle, I might play "Let's Make a Deal". Bring the coach onto the field, and talk to him with the player. Tell the player what he did was unacceptable in any game, and ask him if he knew what red cards were for. Then offer to let the coach sub him out and sit the remainder of the game. It gets the point across, gets him off the field to think about what he's done, but doesn't result in a suspension. Technically wrong, morally right? And if the coach isn't reasonable enough to take me up on my deal, well then the kid gets shown the red and I spend time writing it up. (Coach will probably go ballistic at that point, so he'll be sent packing as well.)

[Ref Flunkie]

I've red carded a U10 player (travel) once, for stomping his opponent. At that age, I tend to believe you only really need to address violence.

As far as a young keeper gridiron-style tackle, I might play "Let's Make a Deal". Bring the coach onto the field, and talk to him with the player. Tell the player what he did was unacceptable in any game, and ask him if he knew what red cards were for. Then offer to let the coach sub him out and sit the remainder of the game. It gets the point across, gets him off the field to think about what he's done, but doesn't result in a suspension. Technically wrong, morally right? And if the coach isn't reasonable enough to take me up on my deal, well then the kid gets shown the red and I spend time writing it up. (Coach will probably go ballistic at that point, so he'll be sent packing as well.)

I agree if it is a rec league game or lower level game. If I can tell the kids are good enough and know what they are doing, I would probably just give a straight red card and be done with it. I think it all depends why the kids are out there. If I knew it was a serious tournament, I would feel like I am cheating the OTHER team if I do not send off the player for DOGSO. However, if they are just there to enjoy the day, have fun, and could care less who wins, I would probably do what you say and just have him subbed out for the rest of the game. I've cautioned a U-10 (or 11 or 12 or something, I don't recall the age) girl for dissent because she WOULDN'T SHUT UP! I warned her 2 times for yelling at me and complaining and finally said "Thats it!" and tossed a yellow her way. She finally shut her mouth then. After the game, the coach wanted me to take back the card and said I shouldn't card kids at that age. I pretty much told him to get lost (well, I was political about it).

[whitehound]

Curious that you are Va Beacher, as we had a situation in a tourney there. We were U-9 playing in a U-10 bracket. Our player had a breakaway with a one on one with the keeper. Our player's touch got away from him and the keeeper beat him to the ball. The keeper however muffed the ball. When he went to dive on it our player poked it away from him and scored. The ref ran in and gave our player a Red card. Obviously the ref thought the keeper still had a touch on the ball. I still thought that was rather harsh. Especially considering the player was just 7 years old.

Conversely, two years later, we were playing in NCSL U-11 game in Herndon, VA. We were awarded a direct kick from outside the 18. Our player shot it to the upper right corner of the goal. The Herndon fullback that was positioned on the post leaped up and with his right hand over his head slapped the ball up in to the air. As the ball was falling back to the ground, and the goal, he punched it out of the box. The ref came in and ordered a pk, but no card. I questioned him about it at the half. (I know, not the best time.) The ref stated that he did not like to card kids at this age because they were just learning. I informed the ref that the Herndon team received no penalty from stopping a goal with their hand. The only "learning" that occurred was that the kid was being rewarded for cheating. Of course we missed the pk. Herndon immediately scored to tie the game 1-1 at the half. They won 2-1 in the 2nd half. We of course got no calls at all from the ref because we dared to question him.
In all sincerity you dont get the best reff in the U11 games.... Probably has more of an impact then any false sense that 10 year olds dont know how to cheat.

[Ref Flunkie]

Just to add to the "I think I know where it comes from", I was doing a U-11 rec league game this weekend. The visiting team was up 5-0 in the 2nd half, and all I could hear from their sidelines was complaining about how I didn't call a PK on some foul or how I wasn't calling pushing, etc. I was *this* close to going off on the whole sideline. IT'S 5 FRICKIN 0, what you want to beat these 10 year old 10-0??? You don't have to look very far when it comes to where bad behavior comes from with kids.

[Claymore]

I think I can sum this up: Parents are a$$holes.

The two local select leagues in the DC, NCSL (boys) and WAGS (girls), have the R&D committee minutes posted, and reading these reports reinforces what we've discussed here many times.

By and large, the parents who are most often out of control are those of the U-littles. They know little to nothing about the rules, but that doesn't keep them from voicing their opinion on EVERY STINKING CALL. They have way too much invested in their little Mia or Freddy to allow some referee to damage an obvious future draft pick or college scholarship.

[Ref Flunkie]

I just wonder what the best way to deal with these parents is. On one had, we should put a stop to this ASAP, but on the other hand, it isn't like these parents who shouldn't have been allowed to have kids will listen to us anyway.

[Gary V]

I just wonder what the best way to deal with these parents is. On one had, we should put a stop to this ASAP, but on the other hand, it isn't like these parents who shouldn't have been allowed to have kids will listen to us anyway.
If one or two spectators are having an effect on the game, you stop play and tell the captain (coach in a youth game) that it will not restart unless X and Y leave. Give them a minute or two to exit; if they don't you do.

If it's the whole herd sounding off, you might consider terminating immediately.

Teams get sent home a couple of times without completing the game, maybe the league awards a forfeit to the opponents, and the parents will shape up pretty quickly. Provided, of course, that your league backs up the referees.

[Ref Flunkie]

I guess another question is how far to let it go. I understand that fans do not need to stay silent during the game, but, especially with kids, I think it is so bad when parents make comments to the referee, even if it isn't horribly abusive. Just the fact that the kids hear their parents dissenting to the referee gets it in their heads that they can too. Again at older ages, players know better, as do most parents, but at what point do we start to challenge these parents, or more exactly, how many comments do we let go before we take action.

[vabeacher]

The worst situation is a coach that is constantly mouthing off about my refereeing, which then gives the parents and kids the impression that any of my decisions are open to criticism. Comments from parents usually don't bother me unless they become derogatory. I can understand a complaint in the heat of the moment (Aw, come on Ref!) about a preceived poor call; but don't bring up the same situation 2 or 5 minutes later, especially if it is meant to rile up other parents. Then I will stop the game and warn the parent, that I can and will have them removed from the field after another outburst.

[Ref Flunkie]

The worst situation is a coach that is constantly mouthing off about my refereeing, which then gives the parents and kids the impression that any of my decisions are open to criticism. Comments from parents usually don't bother me unless they become derogatory. I can understand a complaint in the heat of the moment (Aw, come on Ref!) about a preceived poor call; but don't bring up the same situation 2 or 5 minutes later, especially if it is meant to rile up other parents. Then I will stop the game and warn the parent, that I can and will have them removed from the field after another outburst.


Yeah I don't mind groans or "Come on ref"...but constant little snide comments are what get me the most upset (Oh, now you call it....They've been doing that all game....blah blah blah)...for the very reason you say...it makes it appear to the kids that all my decisions are (A) wrong (because mommy and daddy said so), and (B) that they have the right to criticize. This isn't a democratic situation folks...I am the dictator, so leave your comments in the car. Oooo, I should use that line, I like that :).

[NHRef]

Somewhere, I think on this forum, there was a long list of things you wanted to say and did say to parents, it was a riot.

So far I have been lucky and only had to deal with 1 obnoxious coach and haven't had parent problems. I do get a kick out of parental "advice" to their kids when it goes directly against what the coach is instructing from the other side of the field.

I have also seen kids turn and give the "shoosh" signal and/or dirty looks to parents.

As the parent side AR, I will often try and lightly talk/joke with parents during down times of the game.

[Ref Flunkie]

Somewhere, I think on this forum, there was a long list of things you wanted to say and did say to parents, it was a riot.

So far I have been lucky and only had to deal with 1 obnoxious coach and haven't had parent problems. I do get a kick out of parental "advice" to their kids when it goes directly against what the coach is instructing from the other side of the field.

I have also seen kids turn and give the "shoosh" signal and/or dirty looks to parents.

As the parent side AR, I will often try and lightly talk/joke with parents during down times of the game.


Ah yes, I love hearing parents yell "SHOOOOTTT" when the kid is 20 yards outside the penalty area. Good stuff. Really, last season was pretty good when it came to parents...perhaps it was just this isolated game that got me into this "I hate people that b*tch at me openly while I referee" moods. We'll see how I react to them this week/weekend :).

[Footer Phooter]

I have also seen kids turn and give the "shoosh" signal and/or dirty looks to parents.


I ejected a parent last year. She continued to argue with me for a while, until from behind me I hear, "MMMMMMMooooooooommmmmmmmmm, LEAVE! You're embarrasing me!" (U-16 Girls)

[Footer Phooter]

The two local select leagues in the DC, NCSL (boys) and WAGS (girls), have the R&D committee minutes posted, and reading these reports reinforces what we've discussed here many times.



No kidding. There are some really bad situations on those sites. Not the ones about teams accumulating penalty points (which happens), but harrassment, physical confrontation, and one parent confronting an official with a video camera. Of course those parents are the first ones to complain when there aren't enough refs to go around, so their team doesn't get a full crew for the game.