Are Korean People Really Homogenous?

[numberfreakishnerd]

it is commonly assumed korean people are homogenous group of people. is this really true? i read there were people from arabia who settled in silla. im not really into archaeology or history but could someone tell me more about these things? thanks.

[AmoebaCulture]

This question really depends on what you actually define "homogenous" as.

Technically, scientifically, and honestly:
No. But then again, nobody on this planet is actually homogenous. I say the Javanoids of the South East Asia are closer to being homogenous than Koreans are but thats just me anyway.

About the Arabic people in Silla. There were towns built for certain groups of foreigners in Silla, that including traders from the middle east. There were numerous articles of pottery that were from Turkey, Persia, and ect and is currently located at the Korean National Museum as historical evidence that Korea's trade expanded beyond China, India and South East Asia. But to answer your question: no, foreigners did not exactly settle into Korea until the late 19th century and those were the Chinese. Incheon once had the largest Chinatown in the world but extreme poverty and welfare due to the war took this once bustling Chinatown away. There are a lot of 3rd and 4th generation Chinse-Koreans in Korea today.

[Elliad]

Probably not entirely homogeneous by race (which would be quite impossible), but quite certainly by culture and tradition, I think. Arabians settling in Silla is a news to me though (but a legend of the Kaya dynasty states that the queen of the founding King was a princess of an Indian Kingdom). But the Koryo dynasty (~900 AD-1300 AD) had extensive international trade networks, attracting merchants from places as far as Persia.

Most of the Chinese-Koreans living in Korea today are mainly the refugees who fled China after the defeat of the Kuomintang (via Shandong province) by the Communist Party. I heard that the Chinese who came before them have all disappeared by now (integrated into the society). These new Chinese-Koreans did pretty well since they arrived in Korea (but were never allowed Korean citizenships by the government, even the children who were born in Korea), but suffered some ciritical losses when Korea severed ties with Taiwan (in a manner which was quite tactless and full of hostility) and started trading with China, about a decade or so ago. But most of them are still doing quite well, and still maintain their tradition and heritage - but even they are gradually being integrated into the Korean society.

[AmoebaCulture]

Well I do believe we are homogenous in culture. Its a frequent misunderstanding when people say that we're mongolian or inherited Chinese culture. I guess in their eyes we might look and sound the same but to be honest, what do the chinse and koreans really have in common?

Sure we use chopsticks. Sure, we have borrowed their scripts. But apart from all that, we are a manchurian culture and ethnically and culturally, manchurians are closer to being korean than chinese.

[Elliad]

Well I do believe we are homogenous in culture. Its a frequent misunderstanding when people say that we're mongolian or inherited Chinese culture. I guess in their eyes we might look and sound the same but to be honest, what do the chinse and koreans really have in common?

Sure we use chopsticks. Sure, we have borrowed their scripts. But apart from all that, we are a manchurian culture and ethnically and culturally, manchurians are closer to being korean than chinese.

I think Koreans are referred to as Mongoloids, in terms of racial classification, but I've yet to hear ppl saying we are Mongolians :)

But I don't think we are of "manchurian" culture, either. We do have same roots - as Koguryo held most of Manchuria, and since Korugyo's fall there wasn't a dominant kingdom in that region (other than Bal-Hae) to claim that they've succeeded Koguryo. The Koryo dynasty did claim to have succeeded Koguryo, but that kingdom was limited to the peninsula and never reached into Manchuria. Frankly the Manchus didn't have much of a culture - the refugees of Koguryo were either dispersed or absorbed by Bal-Hae, and the nomadic tribes founded the two Jin dynasties in the Manchuria but both moved west and conquered the mainland China (and stayed there).

[jamisont]

Well considering its language, its basic language structure is almost identical as ancient east asians (Gilyak).
Consdering its genes, 70% from northern mongoloid, 30% from southern mongoloid.

Korean ancient culture had both central nomadic tribe's like Skitai and Huns , also naval and agricultural culture(similar as India).
I wont mention about northern mongoloid since even korean myth says they were from Syberia(Buyo) to manchuria then Korean peninsula.

what im gonna talk about is other 30% , southern mongoloid.
Korean ancient words related to agriculture were very related to Dravidian (Ancient Indian, ppl who lived in India before Aryans moved in)
Such as Byo벼 (its Bya in Dravidian) gyl 길(Gyl) Nal (nal) Metugi (Meddi) nat al낱알 (Narak) almost 1000 words related to farming were similar as Dravidian.

There were several small city kingdoms in southern part of Korea, and their kingdoms were called Kaya (Karak) such as great kaya, gold crown kaya.
This is also from Dravidian.
In korean, Kaya cant be described its meanings. Gaya in dravidian, it means village, kingdom, and Fish. Garak is ancient dravidian, means same as Gaya.

for example, there are several places named Gaya in India, Most well known place would be Buddah Gaya, one of 4 major buddism sacrate place.

In myth of Kaya, Kim Suro founded Kaya in AD 42, and his wife was a daughter of Ayuta King . its written in ancient korean history book very detaily.
Ayudia was a name of kingdoms that existed in north eastern India, Thailand, Burma and central china.
She had 10 sons, first son followed last name of father but 2nd and 3rd son followed her last name. which was 'Huh'

Both Kim Suro and his wife's tumbs still exist, and there's a symbol in the gate of Kim Suro's tumb and it is exactly same as Ayudia's royal mark. and there's a small tower made out of stones that can only be found in north east India.

well anyway, Koreans valued their root very important, so they wrote who their ancestors were in family tree book since 1500~2000 years ago.
so if you know their last name, you can check where they are from (if they were from outside korea, such as Tibet, China, Japan, Persia, India etc)

[jamisont]

I think Koreans are referred to as Mongoloids, in terms of racial classification, but I've yet to hear ppl saying we are Mongolians :)

But I don't think we are of "manchurian" culture, either. We do have same roots - as Koguryo held most of Manchuria, and since Korugyo's fall there wasn't a dominant kingdom in that region (other than Bal-Hae) to claim that they've succeeded Koguryo. The Koryo dynasty did claim to have succeeded Koguryo, but that kingdom was limited to the peninsula and never reached into Manchuria. Frankly the Manchus didn't have much of a culture - the refugees of Koguryo were either dispersed or absorbed by Bal-Hae, and the nomadic tribes founded the two Jin dynasties in the Manchuria but both moved west and conquered the mainland China (and stayed there).

well the word mongolia dont have much history, it began using probably since 4th century.
so its absurd to say we are mongolian. (in point of view of western, mongolians were much well known so they used the term mongoloid as asian)
Mongolians were from Buriat (Buyo) so same root as Koreans. also put a Mon in front of Korea and say it together.

um do you even know who founded Jin? and guess where his ancestor was from. the book written by Manchurian 'history of Jin' says Aguta's great grandfather was from Korea.
Also emperor of Qing set up a statue in Seoul when he surrounded king of Chosun and officials to sign a treaty.
this statue was written in manchurian, chinese and mongolian, saying since Qing emperor's ancestor was from korea, he left chosun king and officials unharmed.

When Koryo was formed, there was already Balhae up north.
after BalHae fall under Kithans, Koryo tried to recover Koguryo's old territory since then. (remember how Koryo kingdom collapsed, Choi Young ordered army to advance into manchuria but Lee Sung Gae returned army and surrounded capital of Koryo instead)

[jamisont]

These new Chinese-Koreans did pretty well since they arrived in Korea (but were never allowed Korean citizenships by the government, even the children who were born in Korea), but suffered some ciritical losses when Korea severed ties with Taiwan (in a manner which was quite tactless and full of hostility) and started trading with China, about a decade or so ago..

I disagree with this remark.
Chinese didnt want to be korean citizen at first place, because they had to do military duty for 3 years if they become Korean.
Environment in military at that time was very harsh.. not even fed that well. many died due to accidents, and no one cared if you got killed in military, not much compensations either.
Korea cut ties with Taiwan well after US and Japan cut ties with them.

[Elliad]

I disagree with this remark.
Chinese didnt want to be korean citizen at first place, because they had to do military duty for 3 years if they become Korean.
Environment in military at that time was very harsh.. not even fed that well. many died due to accidents, and no one cared if you got killed in military, not much compensations either.
Korea cut ties with Taiwan well after US and Japan cut ties with them.

What you are saying has its merits, but I've got my information from the actual Chinese descendants who live in Korea - admittedly they weren't really keen to take Korean citizenship, let alone going through the military service, but they weren't allowed to even apply for the citizenship at first place, even when they were born in Korea. And when I meant by critical losses, it's things such as the government forcibly taking away much of the private land owned by them and applying tighter regulations in regard to their business activities and so forth.

And the manner in which the Korean government cut ties with Taiwan was a debacle, to say the least. It's one thing to go with the flow, but you need to observe certain code of diplomacy in a sensitive situation like that - there is a reason why the Taiwanese people burned the Korean flags and not Japanese or the American, and the ever-hostile attitude the Taiwanese media have been taking against Korea ever since the break-up.

[Elliad]

um do you even know who founded Jin? and guess where his ancestor was from. the book written by Manchurian 'history of Jin' says Aguta's great grandfather was from Korea.
Also emperor of Qing set up a statue in Seoul when he surrounded king of Chosun and officials to sign a treaty.
this statue was written in manchurian, chinese and mongolian, saying since Qing emperor's ancestor was from korea, he left chosun king and officials unharmed.

When Koryo was formed, there was already Balhae up north.
after BalHae fall under Kithans, Koryo tried to recover Koguryo's old territory since then. (remember how Koryo kingdom collapsed, Choi Young ordered army to advance into manchuria but Lee Sung Gae returned army and surrounded capital of Koryo instead)

Lol, I didn't expect to receive a history lesson in this thread, but there you go. But what I never understood is, that whether those tribes such as mal-gal, ger-ran (Kithans), Suk-shin and the later Yeo-Jin (that eventually founded the second Jin Dynasty, the precursor to the Qing empire) can be qualified as Koreans. Our only claim is that Koguryo ruled Manchuria, and the aforementioned tribes as subordinates during their rule - the real Koguryo ppl as a class of aristocrat; after their fall most of Koguryo ppl scattered, and some of them were absorbed by Balhae (a Korean kingdom); but Balhae never had a full control of the Manchuria, and itself was toppled not long after Koryo was founded. It means that for about 500-800 years since the fall of Koguryo there wasn't a proper Korean influence in the Manchuria (and I don't know just how many Koguryo refugees came south to join Silla).

It is possible that Aguta was linked to some Koguryo lineages, but he could've been just one of those tribal families that claimed to Koguryo heritage to increase his status among his peers - in fact many of the regional lords in Manchuria in those days claimed some kind of link to Koguryo heritage anyway.

That Qing emperor and his statue - it's not something to be proud of, you know. It was the first time ever a Korean king bowed to a foreign (yeah, the Qing was a foreign force, regardless of what they claimed about their heritage) force, and although the king and the ministers weren't harmed, it didn't stop the Qing forces from slaughtering countless number of peasants, destroying numerous relics and forcing Chosun to send exorbitant amount of gifts every year, in terms of gold, ginseng, and women. Moreover, Chosun had to send a few princes and high ranking officials as hostages.

And finally, Koryo did have in 'mind' to recover the former territories of Koguryo, but they never really tried. Instead, they got invaded and harassed the most number of times compared to any other dynasty in the Korean peninsula; Koryo got invaded by the Kithans, then the Jins, then the Yo-dynasty (that destroyed the Jin), then the Mongols, then the Japanese pirates - they were hardly in any form to recover any land. In fact, you must know that during the times of Koryo the northern border was actually pushed all the way south near to Pyong-Yang, and it was only after the Chosun was founded the border was pushed back to the Du-man and Ab-rok (Yalu) river. And the force led by Lee SG was just to cross the Du-man river and help out the Yuan dynasty (which was then being destroyed by the Ming), and hopefully capture the Yo-dong peninsula in the process, rather than the Manchuria itself.

[jamisont]

Balhae never had a full control of the Manchuria, and itself was toppled not long after Koryo was founded. It means that for about 500-800 years since the fall of Koguryo there wasn't a proper Korean influence in the Manchuria (and I don't know just how many Koguryo refugees came south to join Silla).

It is possible that Aguta was linked to some Koguryo lineages, but he could've been just one of those tribal families that claimed to Koguryo heritage to increase his status among his peers - in fact many of the regional lords in Manchuria in those days claimed some kind of link to Koguryo heritage anyway.
.

well I dont know what kind of history you took but, BalHae was founded just 30 years after fall of Koguryo and it lasted for 220 years.
And the person who foulded Balhae was one of Koguryo's general, Dae Jo Young.
After fall of Balhae, Jin was founded right after.

As for Aguta, I wonder if you ever read Jin Sa 'history of Jin'. and he was not linked to Koguryo, but Silla.

First chapter of that book stated ancestry of Jin and Aguta, and its a story that you wouldnt feel much proud of. probably shame, but they wrote it so I dont think its any fake.
Aguta's ancestor was Kim Ham Bo (Kim Joon), and he was from PyongJu (current Hwang Hae DO) in Koryo, he was a monk but he had to flee to manchuria after he slept with one of high official's wife. then he got married there with a daughter of chief....
first chapter has mentioned about Koryo about 30 times.

Song history book, Koryo history book also mentioned ancestry of Aguta, stating his ancestor was Silla royal member. (remember last name Kim is royal sur name of Silla and Kaya)

also Qing's emeperor's last name was Kim(Jin), and after Qing anhillated Ming, their emperor changed last name to 애신각라 means love and remember Silla. also one of Silla's old name was Qing Gu. (청구 )

.Koryo got invaded by the Kithans, then the Jins, then the Yo-dynasty (that destroyed the Jin), then the Mongols.

well Kithans founded Yo (Liao) so they are same, also when did Koryo get invaded by Jin??? after Jin anhillated Yo, Jin even returned land Yo took from Koryo.
Jin officials said Koryo was mother land of their emperor, and both Koryo and Jin used eat from same rice bowl since Buyo (Buriat).

고려사 예종 4년(1109) 6월조
“여진 사신이 고려에 와서 ‘옛날 우리 태사 영가께서 일찍이 말씀하시기를 우리 조종이 대방(고려 )에서 나왔으니 자손에 이르러서도 의리상 귀부함이 마땅하다’고 했고 지금 태사 오아속도 역시 대방을 부모의 나라로 삼나이다

[numberfreakishnerd]

very interesting info. keep them coming guys! thanks for so far. :)

[Elliad]

well I dont know what kind of history you took but, BalHae was founded just 30 years after fall of Koguryo and it lasted for 220 years.
And the person who foulded Balhae was one of Koguryo's general, Dae Jo Young.
After fall of Balhae, Jin was founded right after.



So how does that contradict below?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Originally Posted by Elliad
Balhae never had a full control of the Manchuria, and itself was toppled not long after Koryo was founded. It means that for about 500-800 years since the fall of Koguryo there wasn't a proper Korean influence in the Manchuria (and I don't know just how many Koguryo refugees came south to join Silla).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I stated that Balhae fell not long after 'Koryo' was founded (not Koguryo), and that it never had a full control of the Manchuria - Balhae was limited to the north-eastern end of the continent. Maybe you misread a name somewhere? :)

But yeah, I got the Jin part of the history mixed up, I think.

Anyways, why are we having this discussion, btw? We are basically saying the similar things differently, I think.

[xfactor857]

Chinese people from the DongBei (Northeastern) region sure do look a lot like Koreans.

How do people acquire South Korean citizenship now?

[cakrabirawa]

This question really depends on what you actually define "homogenous" as.

Technically, scientifically, and honestly:
No. But then again, nobody on this planet is actually homogenous. I say the Javanoids of the South East Asia are closer to being homogenous than Koreans are but thats just me anyway.

LOL!! U funny mate , it obviously u Dont know anything about Indonesia,
there is many native ppls live in Java island not only Javanese, such as Sundanese ( the second largest ), Betawinese,Madurarese, and me for example I live in Java island but isn't Javanese, I am Cerbonese another big etnich in javanese whom had my own language , and proud of my origin, every those etnich had theirs own language, culture and tradition,
each language its very very diferent than another..

'my etnich and Sundanese etnich ussualy more thicker than Javanese..

BTW WTF is Javanoid's..!!!!!

[Elliad]

Chinese people from the DongBei (Northeastern) region sure do look a lot like Koreans.

How do people acquire South Korean citizenship now?

I think there are lots of Korean-ethnic chinese living in that area... well over 2 million, I think.

And not too sure about the citizenship - I suppose you have to have lived in the country for a certain length of time, meet the required criteria and pass an examination. Oh, and it seems that most naturalised foreigners take Koreanised version of their names, but I'm not sure whether it's compulsory.

[K:theCore]

And that scene with Dennis Hopper and Chris Walken really made me think...(u know...the scene where Walken was talking about how the Mores conquered Sicily and did so much ********ing that that was why the Sicilians became darker).

Well Japan savagely occupied the motherland for some time and in that time, I have to assume there was a lot of rape and pillaging going on. Which brings me to the question of how much of the bloodline has become tainted?

I asked my professor in one of my Asian studies courses and he didnt come up with an answer that really satisfied me.

Anyone else have a view or opinion on the matter? Thanks

[the_13th_redneck]

Spot on.
I lived in Indonesia for many years and I'll tell you that is one seriously diverse group of people

LOL!! U funny mate , it obviously u Dont know anything about Indonesia,
there is many native ppls live in Java island not only Javanese, such as Sundanese ( the second largest ), Betawinese,Madurarese, and me for example I live in Java island but isn't Javanese, I am Cerbonese another big etnich in javanese whom had my own language , and proud of my origin, every those etnich had theirs own language, culture and tradition,
each language its very very diferent than another..

'my etnich and Sundanese etnich ussualy more thicker than Javanese..

BTW WTF is Javanoid's..!!!!!

[the_13th_redneck]

I think the bottom line is: So what?

And that scene with Dennis Hopper and Chris Walken really made me think...(u know...the scene where Walken was talking about how the Mores conquered Sicily and did so much ********ing that that was why the Sicilians became darker).

Well Japan savagely occupied the motherland for some time and in that time, I have to assume there was a lot of rape and pillaging going on. Which brings me to the question of how much of the bloodline has become tainted?

I asked my professor in one of my Asian studies courses and he didnt come up with an answer that really satisfied me.

Anyone else have a view or opinion on the matter? Thanks

[K:theCore]

I think the bottom line is: So what?

Not a rhetorical question of who cares or so what....

Im not trolling here. I honestly would like to know is all.