Schalke and Racist Rumors?

[Catfish]

Before everyone jumps down my throat, I'm just relaying what I have read/heard about Schalke being a Nazi/Hitler's favorite club/racist supporters. I don't like painting with a broad brush so that is why I wanted to get some feedback from Bundesliga supporters before I formed an opinion.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Alex_K]

Two totally different things.

For the historic part: Hitler didn't like soccer (the only game he ever watched was Germany - Norway during the Berlin Olympics). Also, you might remember this thread: http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76527

I'll leave the second part to someone else.

[picaraza]

Schalke were the top team in Germany in the 1930s --- five titles between 1934 and 1940. This era coincides with the Nazi rule in Germany.

I have never heard or read of any association between the club and the Nazi regime. There may have been high-level government officials who were supporters... they were probably just front runners.

On the whole I don't think that the Nazis and their ilk thought much of football-- German rightists were always much more into gymnastics.

Edit: while fascists in Spain and Italy were quick to support and exploit football, I think that in Germany conservatives were extremely suspicious of the (foreign/captialist/socialist) game and were only interested in i as much as they could use it as a political tool.

[Catfish]

AlexK,
Thanks. I don't know why I never received the email notice on your response. You were very helpful. I only ask these questions because I have been following Die Bundesliga for 3 yrs now AND still haven't found which club I want to support. Thanks again.

[Alex_K]

You're welcome :).


I have never heard or read of any association between the club and the Nazi regime. There may have been high-level government officials who were supporters... they were probably just front runners.
Read the link i posted :D


On the whole I don't think that the Nazis and their ilk thought much of football-- German rightists were always much more into gymnastics.
There were various links between NS and football. Football and Sports in general were also an important propaganda instrument. Maybe i'll have time to write a more detailed post tomorrow.

[picaraza]

Catfish,

Support Werder Bremen.

A good club. Not a power-house, but competitive and entertaining. They can even win the title every so often :)

[picaraza]

Alex_K,

I read the other thread.

Funny one of the posters recommended Ulrich Hesse-Lichtenberger's "Tor! The Story of German Football" which was my source on Schalke's past.

BTW: A recommendation to everyone. Read "Tor" and seek out Hesse-Lichtenberger's Bundesliga articles on soccernet.com. A really good writer

[Alex_K]

I haven't read Tor!, but to say that there was no assocciation is a dangerous belittlement in my opinion.

Schalke during the third Reich was opportunistic at best. I think that it's digusting how the club ignores this in the history on their website. Some players, like Fritz Szepan ,were (voluntary) NSDAP members, all players were honorary members of the NSDAP and profited from the regime. The club never did anything against beeing used for propaganda, Nazi events took place before or after their games, Jews were quickly expelled once the Nazis took over etc.

[picaraza]

I haven't read Tor!, but to say that there was no assocciation is a dangerous belittlement in my opinion.

Schalke during the third Reich was opportunistic at best. I think that it's digusting how the club ignores this in the history on their website. Some players, like Fritz Szepan ,were (voluntary) NSDAP members, all players were honorary members of the NSDAP and profited from the regime. The club never did anything against beeing used for propaganda, Nazi events took place before or after their games, Jews were quickly expelled once the Nazis took over etc.

I am not going to reread the book right now so I cannot say categorically that the books says any such thing--- that there was no association between the club and Nazis, but as I remember it the author does not tie the two together.

A quick gleaning of the index brought up some interesting topics:

"Considering how throughly Schalke dominated German domestic football in the 1930s, it would seem logical for national coach Otto Nerz to build his team around players from Gelsenkirchen. There was only one problem Nerz didn't like Schalke. To be more precise, he didn't like their style of play...."

"...regardless of all the titles Schalke would come to collect, the most lasting legacy of this side was the creation of a concept (a myth, if you like) that permeates German football and especially the Ruhr to this day -- that of honest, close-to-the-people, proletarian football."

That sounds a lot like fascist myth-making to me. Even if they weren't fascist themselves, they certainly were in step with the times.

I am pretty sure that the author is a Borussia Dortmund fan and would've loved to deflate Schalke bubble with their history. I'll do some more searching, my interest in this is peaked.

[Catfish]

Catfish,
Support Werder Bremen.
A good club. Not a power-house, but competitive and entertaining. They can even win the title every so often :)

I thought about it, but they were a UNSTOPPABLE last season (feel like a gloryhunter) and I'm sorry, but their kits are awful.

[picaraza]

I thought about it, but they were a UNSTOPPABLE last season (feel like a gloryhunter) and I'm sorry, but their kits are awful.

Yes. Yes. and Yes.

I got on the bandwagon a year early, and throughly enjoyed last season. Guilt free.

As far as the gloryhunting goes....with Bremen its not like you're not signing on with Real, ManU, Bayern, or Juve.

And anyway they are fun to watch. As a Newcastle fan I feel bad about enjoying Arsenal games, but they play so beautifully. I can't help it. Same goes, to a lesser extent... to a far lesser extent with Bremen. They were really fun to watch. Ailton (funny looking chap) in that awful kit! What a joy.

Anyway, follow them this year. Ailton's gone to Schalke (that makes this post somewhat relevant, doesn't it)

They'll be competitve. And Micoud is a wonderful player.

[Catfish]

picaraza,
Thanks for your input. I will keep watching this season. The more I know about the history of the league, history of the various rivals, traditions, supporters, players, see matches, and basically checking various Bundesliga club websites will eventually draw me to a club.

I brought up these questions about Schalke because last season, watching a few of their matches I was very impressed with their supporters. They packed their stadium and were also extremely noisy on the road, as well.

The search continues....

[  ]

Catfish, can you even fit another team in your favourites? ;)

[picaraza]

picaraza,


I brought up these questions about Schalke because last season, watching a few of their matches I was very impressed with their supporters. They packed their stadium and were also extremely noisy on the road, as well.

The search continues....

My wife is Danish so I've been following Ebbe Sand for a while... he had a really great year for Schalke a few years back. They've also got Christian Poulsen, a young midfielder that I like a lot (he's mostly famous for being the guy that Totti spit at in the Euros)

Now that they have Ailton, who I adore, I'll certainly be watching Schalke whenever I can.

Too bad FSW cut back to one game a week... makes it tough.

[Catfish]

Catfish, can you even fit another team in your favourites? ;)

LOL, that's what the signature area is for; you must be cool if you like an Israeli club. I support Hapoel Tel Aviv because that is my friend's club and he sent me a shirt.

[picaraza]

Ok, so I reread a couple of chapters and this is what I found.

"[German education ministrer Bernard] Rust's order of June 2 that Jews had to be expelled is to this day cited in many club histories as proof that 'there was no choice',when in reality most sporting functionaries had already hurried to insinuate themselves with the new masters..."

The author does not single out Schalke as a 'fascist' club. He does note that a number of clubs enthusiastically purged their memberships of Jewish and leftist members prior to June 1. He mentions several clubs: FV Karlsruhe, FC Nurenberg, and Eintracht Frankfurt.


"Thus, the often-heard excuse 'We were only obeying orders' masks the frightening fact that the Nazification of German clubs was forced through by people who were willing to carry out those order before they had even been voiced. The DFB and its clubs acted five to ten weeks before Rust's official regulation."


"On April 19, 1933, the DFB user kicker magazine (which, remember, was founded by the Jew Walter Bensemann) to make an official anouncement stating that 'members ofthe Jewish race, and persons who have turned out to be followers of the Marxist movement, are deemed unacceptable'."

Does Schalke currently have a reputation as a racist club? My understanding was that their glory years were the 1930s, but I had never heard anything that marks them as particularly racist or rightist. Am I wrong?

[Catfish]

What are some of the social or cultural aspects of the various clubs?

I mean in the English Premiership; clubs like Newcastle, Middlesborough, and Sunderland are in the industrial/mining/port area of the Northeast. Birmingham is another industrial area of England.

We all know that certain clubs are more working class/liberal. Some clubs have a more middle/upper class fanbase.

I really want to know about these various aspects of the Bundesliga clubs. It will definately explain the nuances of the league, country, and the clubs.

I'm so desperate to find my Bundesliga club to support (clubs in many leagues for that matter, gives me an emotional reason to care when I watch matches) that I even use playing FIFA 2004 with various clubs to see if I'm drawn to any particular Bundesliga club. You can laugh now at me.

Thank you very much.

[BayernWake]

What are some of the social or cultural aspects of the various clubs?

I mean in the English Premiership; clubs like Newcastle, Middlesborough, and Sunderland are in the industrial/mining/port area of the Northeast. Birmingham is another industrial area of England.

We all know that certain clubs are more working class/liberal. Some clubs have a more middle/upper class fanbase.

I really want to know about these various aspects of the Bundesliga clubs. It will definately explain the nuances of the league, country, and the clubs.

I'm so desperate to find my Bundesliga club to support (clubs in many leagues for that matter, gives me an emotional reason to care when I watch matches) that I even use playing FIFA 2004 with various clubs to see if I'm drawn to any particular Bundesliga club. You can laugh now at me.

Thank you very much.

Have you ever been to Germany? You could base it on that...the city/region, that is. Or perhaps find a player you like? Personally, Oliver Kahn is the reason I started following German football...I decided to support whichever team he was on after his amazing World Cup performance. Little did I know at the time that it was FCB, the Yankees of the BL. In spite of this, I've supported Bayern ever since.

[Owen Gohl]

Here's a list of profiles of all major and many not so major German clubs:

http://www.sonic.net/~jtdwyer/abseits/clubs/teams.html

The site also has a brief article on soccer during the 3rd Reich.

[Alex_K]

Ok, so I reread a couple of chapters and this is what I found.

"[German education ministrer Bernard] Rust's order of June 2 that Jews had to be expelled is to this day cited in many club histories as proof that 'there was no choice',when in reality most sporting functionaries had already hurried to insinuate themselves with the new masters..."

The author does not single out Schalke as a 'fascist' club. He does note that a number of clubs enthusiastically purged their memberships of Jewish and leftist members prior to June 1. He mentions several clubs: FV Karlsruhe, FC Nurenberg, and Eintracht Frankfurt.


"Thus, the often-heard excuse 'We were only obeying orders' masks the frightening fact that the Nazification of German clubs was forced through by people who were willing to carry out those order before they had even been voiced. The DFB and its clubs acted five to ten weeks before Rust's official regulation."


"On April 19, 1933, the DFB user kicker magazine (which, remember, was founded by the Jew Walter Bensemann) to make an official anouncement stating that 'members ofthe Jewish race, and persons who have turned out to be followers of the Marxist movement, are deemed unacceptable'."


Yeah, i am familiar with this. I did not want to single Schalke out either, btw. Most German clubs and Football assocciations can't be proud on their past in that aspect. But the author should have noted that some clubs did NOT voluntary expell their Jewish members, Bayern München is surely the most prominent example here. Bayern's Jewish president Landauer (who was later sent to Dachau) resigned against the will of the club, but they kept in contact. I am not a big fan of Bayern, but everyone who says that "there was no other choice" should do a research on Bayern's past (this was a general comment and not directed at you, btw.)