US Olympic Basketball Team Part II [R]

[juventino3]

And y'know, you can't put NBA refs there either because it's such a different game...

It's our game that they turned into a bad version of Hoosiers. European basketball is horrible. Sure fundamentals are important, but international rules take creativity, defense, athleticism, and speed out of the game. Basketball is a man's game. Physical elements are crucial. You can't even breathe on somebody without these jerk offs calling a foul.

[juventino3]

The irony of the Spanish players complaining about travelling is beyond my comprehension as well. Watching these clumsy Euro players drive to the basket is like watching a tap dancer perform. The US gets called for travelling when one of their players does a head fake. That tells you how prehistoric the international game is :rolleyes:

[Scotty]

Spanish media already whining, they must have gotten a different feed over in Europe:

http://www.marca.com/edicion/noticia/0,2458,526076,00.html

The headline translates to:

THE POLEMICAL DECISIONS ALWAYS FAVORED THE U.S. TEAM
Marbury and the refs separate Spain from the medals

[patrickm]

what channel are the semi final games on?

[Alex_1]

It's our game that they turned into a bad version of Hoosiers. European basketball is horrible. Sure fundamentals are important, but international rules take creativity, defense, athleticism, and speed out of the game.

Something sort of funny, and I'm not being a wise ass this time. But check this out:

soccer take athleticism, and speed out of the game.

Some of my friends have this gripe about soccer - I just changed "international rules". :D


Basketball is a man's game. Physical elements are crucial. You can't even breathe on somebody without these jerk offs calling a foul.

You can't body up on players. Technically, basketball was supposed to be non-contact but the game evolved and changed. One thing I never understood (partly because I never bothered to learn about it) is the trapezoid box.

I don't really like the international game either and the style of play of many of the teams. Just hoisting threes... I hate that. And the zones I don't like either. The Spain game at least showed some creative moves, and watching Iverson's dribbling is always fun IMO. Gasol's got game too. They didn't play intimadated and took it to the USA. One of the better games to watch IMO. One thing that was sort of neat though was seeing the USA guys adjust to the game and find ways to beat the system. Hopefully they'll do even better in the next game.

Til then, here's a rather interesting article:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/040826

[patrickm]

this is deja vu all over again. the same complaints the canadians had about european hockey back in the day we now have about euro hoops.the difference is that the canadians truly feared the russians, if nobody else, and our players fear none of these teams, to their peril, perhaps.

[juventino3]

That is a good article and it touches on a lot of important issues, but he is wrong if he thinks European basketball is more exciting then the NBA. Unless he likes watching a guy launch up a 3 behind a moving pick all day. :D

[microbrew]

Spain just didn't match up well against the US. Specifically, their guards weren't up to it.

It would be even more ironic and incomprehesible if the US complained about traveling...

The reffing has been iffy, it's bad but not significantly worse than, say, NBA playoff reffing. Speaking of whining, imagine if Phil Jackson was here...

[microbrew]

In terms of offense, international basketball is still better than the old clear out the paint and run isolations all night long.

As for three-pointers: it's a part of the game. If you don't want the other team hoisting up threes, defend the perimeter. What's next, complaining about back-door layups?


I don't understand how international rules take creativity, defense, athleticism, and speed out of the game. The zone defense combined with a lack of reliable jump shooters and no point guard is what is taking us out of our game.

Creativity: If anything, international offenses are more creative; players have to be better passers and shooters, opening up the game.

Defense: Internationally, teams don't play defense by choice; it's just not their style. Maybe I missed the arguement that zone defenses aren't defense. And I don't care what the rules are; if the big man can't get out on screen-rolls, the team is going to be burnt.

Athleticism and speed: Besides the issues with the zone, the failure to take advantage of this is personnel. You need guys to handle the ball and make good decisions quickly on the break. Who can do that consistently well? Lebron? A.I.? Two words: Jason Kidd


For the NBA, I'd prefer to get rid of the defensive three seconds rule, and experiment with the trapezoidal lane. But don't move the three point line, thank you. The last thing the NBA needs is more players tempted to throw up quick three-pointers.

[skipshady]

Speaking of whining, imagine if Phil Jackson was here...In Jackson's defense, when he whines about the officiating, there is a method to the madness - most of the time, it's more gamesmanship than sour grapes. When he complains about Game 1, he's actually preparing for Game 2, putting pressure on the refs to make certain calls. To my knowledge, he doesn't complain about officiating after his team has been eliminated.

I'd like to see a combination of NBA and international rules. I enjoy watching AI drive to the basket and throw his body against the trees, or Duncan and Shaq abuse their defenders, but I also hate it when 8 guys stand on one side of the court watching a game of 1vs1.

I'm okay with NBA's zone rule with defensive 3-seconds. I'm fine with the trapezoidal lane because it forces the big man to move more and combined with defensive 3-seconds, it opens up the area around the basket.
Keep the NBA 3-point line where it is - the league doesn't need any more Antoine Walkers and Baron Davises.

I never understood why people complained about the Pistons' offense. They moved without the ball. Sure, they didn't score much, but that doesn't mean they couldn't run an offense. They just knew how to get their guys open and create shots.

EDIT: looks like I'm echoing a lot of microbrew's thoughts

[JG]

FWIW the EuroLeague does not play by straight FIBA rules, but by ULEB (the group that runs the competition) rules, which include some NBA elements and will have the little arc beneath the basket where charges can't be called starting next year.

Part of the problem with the officiating at the Olympics is that refs who work ULEB competitions are banned from FIBA competitions, so the best refs in Europe aren't there.

[Alex_1]

In terms of offense, international basketball is still better than the old clear out the paint and run isolations all night long.

As for three-pointers: it's a part of the game. If you don't want the other team hoisting up threes, defend the perimeter. What's next, complaining about back-door layups?

Ummm... Ha! or something.

Threes are a part of the game. But IMO, I've never been a fan of the "throw up anything beyond the arc" game. That happened in the mid nineties in the NBA when they shortened the 3 point arc. Suddenly everyone wanted to hoist threes. And don't even get me started on the Boston Celtics...


I don't understand how international rules take creativity, defense, athleticism, and speed out of the game. The zone defense combined with a lack of reliable jump shooters and no point guard is what is taking us out of our game.

The rules aren't really the problem. I've never been a big zone fan, but that's a matter of preference. There are some people that prefer the college game to the NBA game, for example.

The problem IMO is that a lot of guys on the USA team have hardly faced a competent zone or full court press. Therefor, they haven't really been forced to run drill after drill of zone breaking schemes and breaks. For instance, you see a diamond zone, how do all 4 of the players on the inbounding team respond and adjust?

I know everyone likes to beat up on Stephon Marbury, but once upon a time he was actually a very good point-guard.


Creativity: If anything, international offenses are more creative; players have to be better passers and shooters, opening up the game.

IMO, international offenses are structured to break down the zones and exploit the weak sides. Don't sell the USA players short - they are very good basketball players. IMO the easiest way to break down a zone is by having a balanced inside/outside presence... if you can. With a couple good shooters, you expose the zone and force them to either switch to maybe a box & 1 (which could be suicidal) or man-up. This has been a luxury the USA hasn't had, becuase they had struggled to hit from the perimeter and there was never really a need to switch it up. Meanwhile Spain struggled to adjust to them hitting from the perimeter...


Defense: Internationally, teams don't play defense by choice; it's just not their style.

... IMO, that's kind of a telling statement.


Maybe I missed the arguement that zone defenses aren't defense. And I don't care what the rules are; if the big man can't get out on screen-rolls, the team is going to be burnt.

Who said "zone defenses aren't defenses"?


Athleticism and speed: Besides the issues with the zone, the failure to take advantage of this is personnel. You need guys to handle the ball and make good decisions quickly on the break. Who can do that consistently well? Lebron? A.I.? Two words: Jason Kidd

Good Point. Jason Kidd's a great point guard. Had he not been injured he'd have been there. However he was injured. And Mike Bibby backed out. LeBron's not that experienced in higher level matches, but Iverson's a hell of a guy to have on the break IMO. He goes right to the middle of the court and pushes, which is what you're supposed to do. He did this very well at Georgetown too... people forget that he was originally slated to be a pg, but had more 2 guard traits and a shooters mentality. So be it.


For the NBA, I'd prefer to get rid of the defensive three seconds rule, and experiment with the trapezoidal lane. But don't move the three point line, thank you. The last thing the NBA needs is more players tempted to throw up quick three-pointers.

I don't care much for the trapezoidal lane. I miss more free flowing offenses with screen and rolls and movement on the off sides. Having guys camp out in a zone... I don't think that'd really work in the NBA. Not that all the players would rip them apart mind you. I don't really care much for the defensive 3 seconds but I'm not a fan of zone defenses in the NBA. Part of the reason I liked the NBA

I do agree with you on the three point issues. I hated it when everyone felt they could shoot threes all day long. Didn't the NBA 3 pt. percentage go down when the line was moved? It wasn't so much because the guy's were missing more, but because guys that ordinarily wouldn't shoot them would take the shot anyway. As much as I didn't like some of the things Dany Ainge did to the Celtics, I did like that it was to be the end of their horrible, wretched style of basketball. McCarty for three! Delk for Three! Walker for three! Pierce for Three! O'Brien for three! :D

[patrickm]

there is a nasty rumor that the ncaa is looking towards adopting the trapezoid lane.

[Alex_1]

Here's a pretty good article. Gees... in a way the guy sounds like me a few days ago..

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer04/basketball/columns/story?id=1868342

I loved this statement (not by Gasol, but the tone of the article)

"Everyone wants them out of the tournament," said Spain's Pau Gasol.


And the Americans know it. So screw the rest of the world.

....

Screw the refs, who keep whistling the Yanks for Wal-Mart cheap fouls. Duncan, Boozer and Odom didn't change their defense after being in foul trouble in various times during the tournament. Even though Duncan played only 20 minutes, 45 seconds due to first-half foul problems, he came back and played exactly the same way, harassing Gasol into only four fourth-quarter points.


And screw the foreign diplomacy. Team USA coach Larry Brown enraged the living tappas out of Spain coach Mario Pesquera by calling a timeout with only 23 seconds left and the United States up by 12. In the NBA, most fans and coaches wouldn't think twice about it. In Euro ball, calling a timeout up 12 late in the game is like walking to first while watching your home run sail out of the park.

[MyHouse!]

The timeout thing, IMO that's kind of making a mountain out of a mole-hill. There was nothing slick or malicious about it. According to Brown he saw the score and said forget it but it was too late. Should Brown know all the rules of the international game? Well, yes. But can he make a mistake? Sure. It's not the game he gets paid to know the ins-and-outs of. And at the end of the day, fault the official for granting it if it wasn't supposed to be granted.



That's just the Spanish crying. They started flopping trying to draw fouls (I recall teh point guard going by Dunacn underneath the basket and just flapping his arms pretending he was fouled) and then would gang up on the ref when they questioned a call. I thought I was watching a soccer match. And just like in soccer, the National Team folded when they had a chance to do something special.

Pesquera HAD respect for Larry Brown? Well I HAD respect for Spain's team.

Whatever, they can start their vacation now. We're going to the semis to play an Argentine team I know we can beat.

Peace

[CrewDust]

there is a nasty rumor that the ncaa is looking towards adopting the trapezoid lane.

It's been used in some early season tournaments, the Great Alaskan Shootout for example.

[sinner78]

Basketball is a man's game. Physical elements are crucial. You can't even breathe on somebody without these jerk offs calling a foul.

Foul calls for nothing??
sounds just like the NBA .

anyway lads .You've already been beaten by the mighty lithuania ,puerto rico and italy(post olympics) so no need to start beating your chests and saying that everyone sucks .You guys have been shown up .

[FCDarkness]

there is a nasty rumor that the ncaa is looking towards adopting the trapezoid lane.

They're also gonna move the 3-point line to the international distance. I don't know if there are any other international rules that are being considered. I don't know about the trapezoid lane, but the longer three is a good thing IMO. Help seperate the good 3 point shooting teams from the lucky ones.

[MyHouse!]

Foul calls for nothing??
sounds just like the NBA .

anyway lads .You've already been beaten by the mighty lithuania ,puerto rico and italy(post olympics) so no need to start beating your chests and saying that everyone sucks .You guys have been shown up .

Since when do you care about basketball, SRM? Or are you just coming to "wind up the Yanks" again?

[patrickm]

any american who roots against the american team is a dirty phu-king traitor who should rot in hell.