Metrostars vs. DC United 9-12-02

[Alberto]

I like Gus St. Silva. He is usually one of the better referees in MLS. Last night Gus had one of the worst performances I have ever seen by a big time referee. So what caused it? Was Gus just having a bad day or are there other forces at work?

Why is Brian Hall a solid referee in the world cup and the qualifiers, yet consistently loses control of MLS matches. How is this possible? Is our domestic league that tough? What are the referees doing wrong or better what is the league doing that leads to these performances. It is not an exaggeration to say that there were some real bad challenges and between the hacking and the condition of the field it is a miracle no one was injured.

What do you think about the following regarding last night's match:

Persistent infringement
Dissent
Time wasting
Careless and/or reckless challenges
Violent conduct
Tactical fouls
Cautions
Send-offs
managing the wall on ceremonial free kicks
respecting the 10 yard distance and encoachment
drop balls

Please discuss.

[SoFla Metro]

Originally posted by Alberto
I like Gus St. Silva. He is usually one of the better referees in MLS. Last night Gus had one of the worst performances I have ever seen by a big time referee. So what caused it? Was Gus just having a bad day or are there other forces at work?

Why is Brian Hall a solid referee in the world cup and the qualifiers, yet consistently loses control of MLS matches. How is this possible? Is our domestic league that tough? What are the referees doing wrong or better what is the league doing that leads to these performances. It is not an exaggeration to say that there were some real bad challenges and between the hacking and the condition of the field it is a miracle no one was injured.

What do you think about the following regarding last night's match:

Persistent infringement
Dissent
Time wasting
Careless and/or reckless challenges
Violent conduct
Tactical fouls
Cautions
Send-offs
managing the wall on ceremonial free kicks
respecting the 10 yard distance and encoachment
drop balls

Please discuss. There were at least four players on the field last night when the game ended who should have been ejected earlier in the game.

St. Silva lost control of the match the instant he failed to throw out Reyes and Mathis on the encroachment call. He started to go for his card, then remembered they were both on yellows and wimped out. From that point on it was open season.

[billf]

I'm far from an MLS caliber referee and I also think St.Silva generally does a nice job, but I don't know how he could possibly pass his asssessment from last night. The Reyes-Mathis thing sticks out in my mind, and the drop ball in the second half does as well. Did he blow the whistle by accident? I'd never expect an MLS ref to do this for a "double foul" as Jack Edwards put it. The game also got real chippy, and I was surprised someone didn't get hurt or sent off.

Maybe Mr St.Silva just had a bad night, but that won't go down as one of the better performances by a referee this season. The good thing is that I learned some things from this. You couls clearly see how the Reyes-Mathis incident caused him to lose any measure of control he may have had. Players were killing eachother for a while. As referees, we all need to look for that moment in a match and do the think that restores order. Trying to man-manage that situation wasn't the best thing to do in retrospect.

[kevbrunton]

Now I'm wishing I had watched the game.

I went out to watch a friends band play last night after refereeing a game.

See I do have a life outside of soccer :).

[paulocesar]

To jugde a referee's performance, I wouldn't look at at the World Cup nor qualifiers. Too often, the majority of refs (and even worse, linesman) make errors that have a direct impact on the game (offsides, fouls, cards, etc).

And if one were to look at other leagues, like the Premiership, you'll realize that most refs are crap when officiating games. Until they're made full time positions, given strict standards and penalities to adhere to, the overall quality will be mediocre to abysmal.

I think the only refs that I thought did a decent job was in La Liga...but they're probably bollucks too!

My guess why the ref last night didn't make more of an impact is the fact that both teams play each other again Sat. Given the playoff implications and high profile players involved (Mathis, Olsen), I think MLS wants the "stars" playing for attendance and game quality matters...IMHO.

Alright...flame this.

[bigredfutbol]

Things were almost at a boil by the time the incident with Reyes and Mathis occured. I agree that he lost control of the match at that point, but I think he may have felt that it was already getting hot out there and red cards would have made it worse.
The wrong decision (I think), but understandable. That was a really, really tense game.

[Viking64]

I have never considered St. Silva a good ref, so his failure to do his job last night was almost expected. I protested his appointment to the Burn vs. Fire game, for all the good it does. At least I got to say "I told you so" after he gifted Hristo a dead ball goal.

Reyes was SO out of the that game it was obscene. Funny that Ty or Jack said "they should paint lines" because if you watch FSW Brazilian league games, they DO put temporary spraypaint down for the wall. End of issue.

Thing is, if Mathis had not kicked the ball into Reyes, but protested to Gus, would have have carded Reyes? Like an idiot, probably not.

I agree that USSF refs get yelled at way too much during games. But at some point you have to agree, sometimes the players have a point.

[Detective40oz]

Reyes was walking the tight rope all night and a couple of times could have receieved a second yellow. Mathis also should have received a second yellow for being in the refs face everytime he turned around. The ref has to puish dissent or it gets worse and worse as he game progresses. Then their was Diallos flopping around ont he ground which should have warranted a yellow...then the getting up immediately after the flop to try and punch Olsen in the face..same thing he did against Hernandez when the metros played the revs..and he received a red for that. That refreeing last night was bad and i remember the same ref having the same problems when he reffed a game at RFK..he doesn't seem to be ready for this league, and unfortunately neither do most of the refs in MLS.

[TOTC]

Originally posted by Alberto
What do you think about the following regarding last night's match:

Persistent infringement
Dissent
Time wasting
Careless and/or reckless challenges
Violent conduct
Tactical fouls
Cautions
Send-offs
managing the wall on ceremonial free kicks
respecting the 10 yard distance and encoachment
drop balls

Please discuss.

Typical NY-DC darby. Fuggedabowtitt.

[schmuckatelli]

Originally posted by paulocesar
Given the playoff implications and high profile players involved (Mathis, Olsen), I think MLS wants the "stars" playing for attendance and game quality matters...IMHO.

Actually, I agree with you, but I believe MLS will achieve just the opposite results in so doing. Under these circustances, you could put Zidane, Rivaldo, Beckham, Roberto Carlos, Figo and whoever-else-you-wish on the pitch and it would turn into a mud-wrestling match because both teams were desperate to get points out of the match, and were willing to do anything to get them. Game quality certainly suffered last night as a result of not stemming the tide of ruthless fouling, recrimination, dissent, etc. that Alberto cited at the start of this thread. You could pick four or five players who did not deserve to finish the match. If Mr. St. Silva was under orders to "let the boys play", then shame on MLS. If not, then shame on him.

[FlashMan]

For some reason, and I can't put my finger on it, I think MLS games are harder to ref than most other leagues. The players are so incredibly whiny and petulant, foul so often and generally act so unprofessional for the most part - not to even mention the coaches on the sidelines frantically waving their arms on every foul as if it was the last foul on earth - just makes for an atmosphere where doing a good job reffing becomes very difficult. I've had this impression all year and last night was the icing on the cake.

Just my impression anyway. I find other players in other leagues to generally - generally - be better behaved, and therefore easier to be able to ref. MLS players still act like schoolkids - 22 infant bullies not wanting to take any instruction.

Just an impression and my .02...

[Freestyle2000]

Originally posted by FlashMan
For some reason, and I can't put my finger on it, I think MLS games are harder to ref than most other leagues. The players are so incredibly whiny and petulant, foul so often and generally act so unprofessional for the most part - not to even mention the coaches on the sidelines frantically waving their arms on every foul as if it was the last foul on earth - just makes for an atmosphere where doing a good job reffing becomes very difficult. I've had this impression all year and last night was the icing on the cake.


I would definitely say so. But remember also, when an international ref comes here to officiate and gives out cards for all of this, he is blasted all over these boards.

So what's the solution? Crack down? Fines?

RS

[Dave216J]

After watching a tape of last night's game, what struck me was not the major decisions as much as the minor ones. Through the first half, the ref never imposed himself on the game--he sacrificed it so that it could continue to run smoothly without little fouls being called. Instead of running smoothly, this just encouraged players to step up to bigger fouls. At that point, he tried to regain control with some cards, but as many have noted, he then was not willing to give penalties/second yellows/straight reds, so nobody really paid attention.
Case in point is the Chronopolous/Olsen battle. Chronopolous was fouling Olsen from the start; fouls were not called so long as Olsen still had the ball, and others were overlooked entirely. The ref never indicated to them "I saw that and let it go, but watch it." Being a derby, and Olsen being Olsen, he then began to get his own licks in. Eventually this led to a lot more fouling, a card or two, and a whole lot of boiling tempers. It would have been much better to call each and every one of the 4-5 fouls early in the game, force a slow restart, and make clear that they'd better cut this crap out. Yes it would have made for a choppy first 20 minutes, but players would have adjusted and the rest of the game would have been much smoother.

[billf]

Originally posted by FlashMan
For some reason, and I can't put my finger on it, I think MLS games are harder to ref than most other leagues. The players are so incredibly whiny and petulant, foul so often and generally act so unprofessional for the most part - not to even mention the coaches on the sidelines frantically waving their arms on every foul as if it was the last foul on earth - just makes for an atmosphere where doing a good job reffing becomes very difficult. I've had this impression all year and last night was the icing on the cake.

Just my impression anyway. I find other players in other leagues to generally - generally - be better behaved, and therefore easier to be able to ref. MLS players still act like schoolkids - 22 infant bullies not wanting to take any instruction.

Just an impression and my .02...

I agree with this. A referee friend of mine can't watch MLS anymore because he thinks the players have too much power on the field and get away with far too much. After hearing him say that, I paid more attention to this, and my thoughts would echo what FlashMan said. I don't know what it is with soccer here, but you get this type of thing at almost every level of the game here.

[IASocFan]

Originally posted by billf


I agree with this. A referee friend of mine can't watch MLS anymore because he thinks the players have too much power on the field and get away with far too much. After hearing him say that, I paid more attention to this, and my thoughts would echo what FlashMan said. I don't know what it is with soccer here, but you get this type of thing at almost every level of the game here.

I didn't notice the World Cup or UEFA Champions Leagues enforcing the 10 yards any better. Because of the examples from pro soccer, I include my expectations in my pregames, and haven't had major problems. "10 yards" usually gets a reasonably close wall.

[Emile]

Originally posted by FlashMan
For some reason, and I can't put my finger on it, I think MLS games are harder to ref than most other leagues. The players are so incredibly whiny and petulant, foul so often and generally act so unprofessional for the most part - not to even mention the coaches on the sidelines frantically waving their arms on every foul as if it was the last foul on earth - just makes for an atmosphere where doing a good job reffing becomes very difficult. I've had this impression all year and last night was the icing on the cake.

Just my impression anyway. I find other players in other leagues to generally - generally - be better behaved, and therefore easier to be able to ref. MLS players still act like schoolkids - 22 infant bullies not wanting to take any instruction.


I really agree with this sentiment. I'm not saying that Gus had a good game last night, but I get so tired of reading all the complaints all the time about how such and such referee failed to control the game. The referee can only do so much - the job of controlling the game ultimately belongs to the players, the coaches, the teams and the league. Until MLS teams take a serious attitude towards fair play and sportsmanship, no ref will look good working MLS games.

I'm not sure why it is so bad. In a top-tier league like the EPL, I guess the players can rely on their skill more and not resort to crude fouls and off-play fighting. In WUSA, the smaller and slower players don't colllide as often - although there seems to be a general organizational attitude against MLS style dissent and chippyness.

The league needs to address this - not to the refs, but to the teams. And perhaps they need to start handing out post-game suspensions based on video review.

[BallStateMiddie]

Originally posted by FlashMan

Just my impression anyway. I find other players in other leagues to generally - generally - be better behaved, and therefore easier to be able to ref. MLS players still act like schoolkids - 22 infant bullies not wanting to take any instruction.Have you even watched European soccer? La Liga in particular? The Italian league is ridiculous. Last night might have been bad, but give me a break, DC's fighting for their lives, and the Metros (while I'll give you that they're probably the worst behaved team in the league) are fighting to stay in the playoffs and even get home field. Overall I completely disagree with this statement. So Diallo flopped, every La Liga game I've seen in the last couple years has had at least 4-5 of these. Mathis yelling at the ref? That's a world-wide problem, even at the Cup everybody was raising H about it.

[BallStateMiddie]

Originally posted by Emile
I'm not sure why it is so bad. In a top-tier league like the EPL, I guess the players can rely on their skill more and not resort to crude fouls and off-play fighting. ...The league needs to address this - not to the refs, but to the teams. And perhaps they need to start handing out post-game suspensions based on video review. What an underhanded dig at MLS. How many games have you guys watched this year, because the ones I've seen have not been generally filled with "crude fouls and off-play fighting". While the current US style of play might not be up to your "high standards" because it's a more physical game, you can hardly blame these guys for putting their heart and soul into their matches. I think we see your grasp of the league as a whole by your last statement. The league already hands out post-game suspensions based on video review.

[billf]

Originally posted by IASocFan


I didn't notice the World Cup or UEFA Champions Leagues enforcing the 10 yards any better. Because of the examples from pro soccer, I include my expectations in my pregames, and haven't had major problems. "10 yards" usually gets a reasonably close wall.

I agree on the 10 yards on free kicks. I was referring mostly to the petulant dissent that MLS referees have to deal with. Players in every league cheat on free kicks, but you don't always see the kind of bickering over every referee decison outside of MLS.

[Emile]

Originally posted by BallStateMiddie
What an underhanded dig at MLS. How many games have you guys watched this year, because the ones I've seen have not been generally filled with "crude fouls and off-play fighting". While the current US style of play might not be up to your "high standards" because it's a more physical game, you can hardly blame these guys for putting their heart and soul into their matches. I think we see your grasp of the league as a whole by your last statement. The league already hands out post-game suspensions based on video review.

Interesting analysis. I actually love MLS and would watch it over European league stuff any day. I do feel though, that the bitching and persistent fouling that Flash mentioned is a detriment to the quality of the games. I haven't seen as many games this year as in past years, but that's my opinion - yours to take, leave or have fly over your head.

This is a ref forum, and my point is to agree that MLS is a tough league to officiate. I think the technique and competiveness of the league is excellent, yet for a variety of reasons ('heart and soul' and laziness and sheer not giving a ************edness among them) the players occassionally make it pretty impossible for refs to look good.

I'm aware that there are currently suspensions based on video review. I think an expansion of that program (particularly focusing on dissent) may not be a bad idea, if they ever increase roster sizes.